SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[Lisdogan]

This is long, complicated and confrontational, and I am not sure how to respond. I shall try to be brief, as the points I think are clear.

You are suggesting that it is false to believe that there are graces available within the CC that are not available outside of it?

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But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not be weak. Isaiah 40:31

Jabulani!

 

[Lisdogan]

Perhaps I am just being narrow minded? It seems to me that, if Jesus says “I will be with you until the end of the age”, then does not keep his promise,that he is a liar, a weakling, or possibly a lunatic. If there are other explanations of how He could make a promise like that, then fail to keep it, please enlighten me! I fail to see how my reasoning is dishonorable.

 

[Lisdogan]

The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that contradicts Church TEaching, or vice versa. Both strands of revelation came from the same Source, which is why they cannot contradict.

 

[Lisdogan]

(Guanophore reply to n2thelight)

If all you need is Christ, why did He leave a Body/Church on earth? how do you explain away this passage?

 

[SD_Catholic]

It appears that any interpretation of scripture that the staff disagrees with is banned because it is a Catholic doctrine and not a biblical concept.

christianityboard.com/praying-saints-past-t7671p7.html

So much for open discussion at your place. Notice that you’ve been allowed to present non-Catholic concepts for open discussion in this thread for 500+ posts while at your place a topic that presents opposing views doesn’t even make it to a hundred posts before being closed by the staff.

If they were confident in their position, they wouldn’t have closed the discussion down. Notice that such confidence is not lacking here. That in itself speaks volumes.

Wow!! this is scary sad… How could those people ever learn the truth? Kind of funny how it’s closed after making the last point in bold red letters that they hope will stick in the minds of the readers… l can just picture stomping feet, like yelling into the phone “i’m right… you’re wrong” than hanging up quick.

I know my next point is off topic (like my last paragraph) since it IS in the Bible but in reference to Saint intercession… 1 Cor 6:2-3 talks about Saints ruling the world and judging the angels… how could they not know what’s goin on here and still be able to judge the world???

I best hush it now… I just felt compelled to get that out there

SD

 

[Lisdogan]

Scriptural References for the fact that He distributes His Graces through the Church? Or that He can’t be limited?

You made two points, one on channel of grace, and the other on … (my short-term memory is bad at the moment) and I don’t (yet) know how to see a copy of your post as I am trying to reply to it - there must be a way but the technology is beyond me.

I would like scriptural references for both please.

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

I love this, “How dare, Thee, Notworthy!!!”. N2, I don’t insult anyone, I love the Lord, so get off your Holy High Horse!

Let me ask you something that Protestants never answer. You can go find whatever cut and paste you’d like, because I would really love an answer. Why did Jesus institute Forgiveness among His Apostles if He didn’t want the Faithful to use this Grace?

I ask again, poor sinner?
Why did Jesus institute Forgiveness among His Apostles if He didn’t want the Faithful to use this Grace?

Perhaps because

(1) Protestants do not use these Catholic concepts of Forgiveness, Apostles, Faithful and Grace, Sacrament iin the same way as Catholics do, if at all.
(2) Many Protestants do not ask this question, and are therefore not bothered about answering it: they just get on with the work of being Christian children of God. Protestant ethic and all.

In Christ

 

[NotWorthy]

Perhaps because

(1) Protestants do not use these Catholic concepts of Forgiveness, Apostles, Faithful and Grace, Sacrament iin the same way as Catholics do, if at all.
(2) Many Protestants do not ask this question, and are therefore not bothered about answering it: they just get on with the work of being Christian children of God. Protestant ethic and all.

In Christ

I was a tad bit angry at N2 in that post. I hope it didn’t show…

Its not often that I’m accused of insulting God…

 

[Lisdogan]

And here we get the truth. You don’t know where these traditions come from; we are telling you and helping you so that you may know.

You don’t FEEL most are Biblical. Well, that doesn’t change the fact that the Traditions we have been showing you from the Bible ARE Biblical. This isn’t about how you feel or what you think. This is about facts. If you are going to argue on feelings and emotions, it is not necessary to continue with this thread, if you want to go on facts, then, please, look logically at the sources, references, and passages that the Catholics in this thread have provided.

Here we surely have the crux of the matter. n2thelight is presenting a model of Christianity from the other side of the fence. But, as we would anticipate on this Catholic Forum, we Catholics are TELLING n2thelight what is the truth, manmade or not but certainly man-interpreted however divinely inspired, and certainly from man-written documents, however divinely inspired. (Get it? Got it? Good! It was a hard sentence to write.)

we are telling you

• so that you may know.
• the Traditions we have been showing you from the Bible
• this isn’t about how you feel or what you think.
• this is about facts
• look logically at the sources, references, and passages that the Catholics in this thread have provided

God is the greatest eternal and infinite Mystery we have encountered. He is unknowable, utterly and absolutely unknowable. He will remain so eternally for that is His nature.

I find it hard, even as a Catholic, to take on issues like those raised by n2thelight, in terms of black and white. To say ‘I know, and therefore it is’, is impossible for me. To say ‘I have been told this is so, and therefore it is’, is unthinkable.

Brainwashing is an ugly word, and an uglier concept. But it exists everywhere.

God gave us brains, will, and the capacity for insight.

If Catholics fall back on what they have been taught, accept CCC without question, and denigrate others who do not accept that truth, it is to the detriment of the Holy Church herself.

I cannot think in black and white like this. I can only think in greys, particularly given the innate opacity of the Original Mystery.

In Christ

 

[NotWorthy]

Here we surely have the crux of the matter. n2thelight is presenting a model of Christianity from the other side of the fence. But, as we would anticipate on this Catholic Forum, we Catholics are TELLING n2thelight what is the truth, manmade or not but certainly man-interpreted however divinely inspired, and certainly from man-written documents, however divinely inspired. (Get it? Got it? Good! It was a hard sentence to write.)

God is the greatest eternal and infinite Mystery we have encountered. He is unknowable, utterly and absolutely unknowable. He will remain so eternally for that is His nature.

I find it hard, even as a Catholic, to take on issues like those raised by n2thelight, in terms of black and white. To say ‘I know, and therefore it is’, is impossible for me. To say ‘I have been told this is so, and therefore it is’, is unthinkable.

What exactly is not black or white about, “Man cannot forgive sins. Period”. That’s a pretty cut-and-dried sentence.

Brainwashing is an ugly word, and an uglier concept. But it exists everywhere.

God gave us brains, will, and the capacity for insight.

If Catholics fall back on what they have been taught, accept CCC without question, and denigrate others who do not accept that truth, it is to the detriment of the Holy Church herself.

I cannot think in black and white like this. I can only think in greys, particularly given the innate opacity of the Original Mystery.

In Christ

Please do not denigrate what we are saying that it is simply “brainwashing”. We’ve provided Scripture that shows where Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive. It is N2 that is simply recanting the mantra that “man cannot forgive sins. Period”.

 

[Lisdogan]

Haha, we already have.

But you like to ignore all those nettlesome “binding and loosing” texts, direct instructions to the Apostles and their successors.

This one should also prove pretty troublesome for you:

(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

The Gospel According to St. John 20:21-23

This isn’t talking about, “forgive them so I can forgive you of your sins”, as Christ does indeed tell us to do in the Our Father. No, here Christ tells the Apostles that whose sins you retain are retained.

I would really like to see you answer that, because you have yet to address it.

Are you teaching or attacking? Most of what I have read from n2thelight has been written reasonably, even if it aggravates the Catholics who are responding. And n2thelight has persisted with as much honesty and recognition as possible. Gotta do better?

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

It appears that any interpretation of scripture that the staff disagrees with is banned because it is a Catholic doctrine and not a biblical concept.

christianityboard.com/praying-saints-past-t7671p7.html

So much for open discussion at your place. Notice that you’ve been allowed to present non-Catholic concepts for open discussion in this thread for 500+ posts while at your place a topic that presents opposing views doesn’t even make it to a hundred posts before being closed by the staff.

If they were confident in their position, they wouldn’t have closed the discussion down. Notice that such confidence is not lacking here. That in itself speaks volumes.

Bless you. I am the author of a number of threads which have been closed on this Forum, including one on Martin Luther a few days ago. This is not boasting for sure, but a question surely of pots and kettles. Lack of charity?

In Christ

 

[SD_Catholic]

Are you teaching or attacking? Most of what I have read from n2thelight has been written reasonably, even if it aggravates the Catholics who are responding. And n2thelight has persisted with as much honesty and recognition as possible. Gotta do better?

In Christ

How many posts and Scripture verses has N2 failed to respond to… although I know there is a lot of them. But just like the Bible he seems to be picking and choosing which ones he uses. That being said I’m pretty impressed that he still even responds at all… I just hope he is thinking about or atleast reading all the responses he is getting and looking into the possibilities of their truthfulnesss.

The aim is not to chase him off, but when he doesn’t respond to the posts that show his misunderstanding it gets frustrating

SD

 

[Lisdogan]

How many posts and Scripture verses has N2 failed to respond to… although I know there is a lot of them. But just like the Bible he seems to be picking and choosing which ones he uses. That being said I’m pretty impressed that he still even responds at all… I just hope he is thinking about or atleast reading all the responses he is getting and looking into the possibilities of their truthfulnesss.

The aim is not to chase him off, but when he doesn’t respond to the posts that show his misunderstanding it gets frustrating

SD

Of course he/she cannot be chased off: lack of charity. But you have to confess that there is an awful lot to respond to, never mind trying to get your own point across at the same time. I am somewhat surprised that no one else has come on the Forum from that side, or has been drawn in somehow. It is even more interesting to note how many respondents this has drawn from the Catholic posters - a good way to practice what is preached.

In Christ

 

[po18guy]

Of course he/she cannot be chased off: lack of charity. But you have to confess that there is an awful lot to respond to, never mind trying to get your own point across at the same time. I am somewhat surprised that no one else has come on the Forum from that side, or has been drawn in somehow. It is even more interesting to note how many respondents this has drawn from the Catholic posters - a good way to practice what is preached.

In Christ

I think he is alone because precious few Protestants agree on all of the points he is making. Some may indeed agree with us more than him.

Another perception is that some come here with an air of superiority as far as theology goes. They rely 100% on the tiny portion of Christ’s life that was actually written down. Since the theology is razor thin, under fire it always draws back upon the “self-attesting” bible.

If only the bible would attest to the same things to two different Protestants!

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

How many posts and Scripture verses has N2 failed to respond to… although I know there is a lot of them. But just like the Bible he seems to be picking and choosing which ones he uses. That being said I’m pretty impressed that he still even responds at all… I just hope he is thinking about or atleast reading all the responses he is getting and looking into the possibilities of their truthfulnesss.

The aim is not to chase him off, but when he doesn’t respond to the posts that show his misunderstanding it gets frustrating

SD

The cherry-picking is part and parcel of bible-only Christians. Their entire world view is supported by about 5-10% of scripture. Razor thin. and, since it lacks any authoritative interpretation, it may even contradict itself, depending upon its usage. But, at the center of every cherry is a pit.

Pray that the Holy Spirit will illumine his heart.

Christ’s peace.

 

[n2thelight]

So much for open discussion at your place. Notice that you’ve been allowed to present non-Catholic concepts for open discussion in this thread for 500+ posts while at your place a topic that presents opposing views doesn’t even make it to a hundred posts before being closed by the staff.

I am a forum moderator on that site,Ive not been in a minute as Ive been over here,I can’t argue with your point,however in that we are quick to close posts Myself, Ive never closed one and never will unless it is totally disrespectful.

As for me not answering questions here I feel that Ive answered all, with the exception of maybe two or three at the most.I am not protestant I am non denominational.

I think inturpretation of scripture is the main issue here,what I see from scripture tells me that the Catholic Church is wrong.

We are told not to comunicate with the dead,you say the saints in Heaven are not dead,and you are right,but technically no one is dead,no one has even been judged,satan is the only one by name who has been.So when you all can’t prove something from scripture,you say it was given to you orally,that I can’t buy.

And I shall respond to the questions put forth

 

[NotWorthy]

We are told not to comunicate with the dead,you say the saints in Heaven are not dead,and you are right,but technically no one is dead,no one has even been judged,satan is the only one by name who has been.So when you all can’t prove something from scripture,you say it was given to you orally,that I can’t buy.

And I shall respond to the questions put forth

Then let me ask you: If Jesus gave authority to men to forgive sins in His Name, then who are we to dispute that authority? I’m speaking of John 20:20-22.

 

[SD_Catholic]

I am a forum moderator on that site,Ive not been in a minute as Ive been over here,I can’t argue with your point,however in that we are quick to close posts Myself, Ive never closed one and never will unless it is totally disrespectful.

As for me not answering questions here I feel that Ive answered all, with the exception of maybe two or three at the most.I am not protestant I am non denominational.

I think inturpretation of scripture is the main issue here,what I see from scripture tells me that the Catholic Church is wrong.

We are told not to comunicate with the dead,you say the saints in Heaven are not dead,and you are right,but technically no one is dead,no one has even been judged,satan is the only one by name who has been.So when you all can’t prove something from scripture,you say it was given to you orally,that I can’t buy.

And I shall respond to the questions put forth

Not to be offensive, but you are a Protestant, It’s just what the dictionary says… perhaps a non denominational Protestant if you will.

2 or 3 at most would be quite an understatement I’m afraid… and I think the ones you forgot to answer happen to be quite important if you can answer them with a sincere heart… please go back and rediscover what these might be… I think you would want to know for yourself if you truly search for the truth… don’t give up searching yet.

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

Of course he/she cannot be chased off: lack of charity. But you have to confess that there is an awful lot to respond to, never mind trying to get your own point across at the same time. I am somewhat surprised that no one else has come on the Forum from that side, or has been drawn in somehow. It is even more interesting to note how many respondents this has drawn from the Catholic posters - a good way to practice what is preached.

In Christ

lack of charity where? I said our aim is not to chase him off… as in I hope we don’t chase him off. And I did confess there was a lot for him to answer (please reread my post if you missed it)… but I feel for everyone’s sake all the questions should try to be answered if he is wanting to “prove” how wrong we are… avoiding certain ones isn’t going to “prove” much to me.

SD