Both. The same fact can be taught both by an inspired writer in writing (Scripture) and by an Apostle verbally (Tradition). The Catechism states the Church teaching regarding the whole deposit of faith, not just one part of it or the other.Let me ask this.does the Catechism,explain scripture or are they traditions or both?
Yes, but nothing of Jesus as the Man was written already when Jesus was walking on the Earth except that which had been prophesied about Him in the OT. It only stands to reason that the NT would be written. And it only stands to reason that the only things included in the Bible were those things given to the Church by the Holy Spirit in the 3rd century. Not everything that was written could be included, because many things written were not inspired by the Holy Spirit. He gave to us what was absolute Truth, and what was needed. And He continues to work in our lives, in the world and in His Church since then. He confirms whether it is Truth by telling us to search the Scriptures of both OT and NT and by the Traditions of the Catholic Church. Anything that goes against these things is not accepted as truth. That is why prophesies are not accepted by the Church as truth unless they come to pass.Ive never seen anywhere that Christ said have ye not heard,it was always,have ye not read.When satan tempted Christ did Christ say have you heard?No!He said it is written
The Catechism explains all the Catholic Traditions and often uses Scriptures to show how they developed.Let me ask this.does the Catechism,explain scripture or are they traditions or both?
How about what Christ says, here?Ive never seen anywhere that Christ said have ye not heard,it was always,have ye not read.When satan tempted Christ did Christ say have you heard?No!He said it is written
Nowhere does Christ say, “Take it to the Scriptures…”"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Jesus is also pretty clear here:Ive never seen anywhere that Christ said have ye not heard,it was always,have ye not read.When satan tempted Christ did Christ say have you heard?No!He said it is written
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,*** 2 *** saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.*** 3 ****** Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you***, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
Well, it would be good to explain this about Catholicism:Let me ask this.does the Catechism,explain scripture or are they traditions or both?
Where in Scripture, are those “other ways” outlined?If this was the only criteria you would be correct. There were other ways to determine if a book or letter was Scripture than just this one.
NotWorthy
You are missing the point of this verse,this is basically a dispute between two people,with the Church simply being an arbritraitor,its not a biblical matter,rather a legal one."If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
JLongoria
Can you give some examples of sacred traditionsSacred Scripture is obvious as the written Word of God, and Sacred Tradition is the oral Word of God. Both came to completion in Christ, and neither of these are added to or taken away from
Any understanding of the Trinity as we have it today. The very fact that the Niceno-Constantinopalitan Creed speaks of the Holy Spirit as “eternally begotten of the Father and the Son” is solely found in Sacred Tradition.Can you give some examples of sacred traditions
This is the thing: Christ did not hand you a book. He did not hand the Apostles a book, nor did He hand one to the disciples.My point to this thread is simple,and that is,if it is not written,I cannot fully trust it,no matter how sacred one tells me the tradition is.
Word of mouth won’t get it,for if it is not written how can I be sure its right.Answer for me is that I can’t.
“Jesus was the living Word while He lived on earth in the flesh, He spoke the Words that the Father gave the Prophets, and even as He did what He has done, He reminded those around that “It is written”. Jesus combined the New Testament with the Old, for without both you simply cannot understand the entire plan of God.”John 14:25-26
“These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you”
Again Christ is the Word and that Word is scripture,not tradition,the Bible is not just a book it is the living Word,in it contains the words that Christ spoke of to the apostles,which they in turn wrote, in that Book.Any understanding of the Trinity as we have it today. The very fact that the Niceno-Constantinopalitan Creed speaks of the Holy Spirit as “eternally begotten of the Father and the Son” is solely found in Sacred Tradition.
Granted, Scripture speaks very much of the person of the Holy Spirit; yet in Sacred Tradition is He made clear.
This is the thing: Christ did not hand you a book. He did not hand the Apostles a book, nor did He hand one to the disciples.
It was word. In fact, as St. Paul tells Timothy,
“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us”.
2 Timothy 1:13-14
“You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”
2 Timothy 2:1-2
The teachings of Christ, and therefore the Apostles (cf. St. Luke 10:16), were preserved in word of mouth, and also by letter. The letters themselves are not complete (which is why St. Paul does not go on to write what exactly those things he wanted St. Timothy to preserve; it was already understood by St. Timothy), which is completely fine!
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Thankfully, the Holy Spirit remained with St. Paul, St. Timothy, and the rest of the Apostles and bishops of the Church so that their word would be truth because it was “entrusted to them by the Holy Spirit who dwells” within.
Thus the Word of God is written and oral, and that’s how God intended it! It’s so wonderful that He has the power to do such things through man; we mustn’t limit Him to a book.
God bless you, brother.
Where does the Bible say that the word of God is scripture only? Nowhere.Again Christ is the Word and that Word is scripture,not tradition,the Bible is not just a book it is the living Word,in it contains the words that Christ spoke of to the apostles,which they in turn wrote, in that Book.
Where does the Bible say that the word of God is scripture only? Nowhere.Again Christ is the Word and that Word is scripture,not tradition,the Bible is not just a book it is the living Word,in it contains the words that Christ spoke of to the apostles,which they in turn wrote, in that Book.
What do these have to do with the Tradition of the Apostles?WRITTEN
Joshua 8:31 (Whole Chapter)
As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
2 Samuel 1:18 (Whole Chapter)
(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)
1 Kings 2:3 (Whole Chapter)
And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
2 Kings 23:21 (Whole Chapter)
And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant.
2 Chronicles 23:18 (Whole Chapter)
Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the LORD by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was ordained by David.
2 Chronicles 25:4 (Whole Chapter)
But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.
2 Chronicles 31:3 (Whole Chapter)
He appointed also the king’s portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD.
2 Chronicles 35:12 (Whole Chapter)
And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.
Ezra 3:2 (Whole Chapter)
Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.
Ezra 3:4 (Whole Chapter)
They kept also the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty of every day required;
Ezra 6:18 (Whole Chapter)
And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses.
Nehemiah 8:15 (Whole Chapter)
And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written.
Nehemiah 10:34 (Whole Chapter)
And we cast the lots among the priests, the Levites, and the people, for the wood offering, to bring it into the house of our God, after the houses of our fathers, at times appointed year by year, to burn upon the altar of the LORD our God, as it is written in the law:
Nehemiah 10:36 (Whole Chapter)
Also the firstborn of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the firstlings of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, unto the priests that minister in the house of our God:
Psalm 40:7 (Whole Chapter)
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Isaiah 65:6 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Daniel 9:13 (Whole Chapter)
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Matthew 2:5 (Whole Chapter)
And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Matthew 4:4 (Whole Chapter)
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matthew 4:6 (Whole Chapter)
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Matthew 4:7 (Whole Chapter)
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Matthew 4:10 (Whole Chapter)
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 11:10 (Whole Chapter)
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Matthew 21:13 (Whole Chapter)
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Matthew 26:24 (Whole Chapter)
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Could give you 55 more verses
READ
Daniel 5:8 (Whole Chapter)
Then came in all the king’s wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof.
Matthew 12:3 (Whole Chapter)
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Matthew 12:5 (Whole Chapter)
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Matthew 19:4 (Whole Chapter)
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 22:31 (Whole Chapter)
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mark 12:10 (Whole Chapter)
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Mark 12:26 (Whole Chapter)
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Luke 6:3 (Whole Chapter)
And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
TRADITION
Matthew 15:2 (Whole Chapter)
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Matthew 15:3 (Whole Chapter)
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 15:6 (Whole Chapter)
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mark 7:3 (Whole Chapter)
For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mark 7:5 (Whole Chapter)
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mark 7:8 (Whole Chapter)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:9 (Whole Chapter)
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:13 (Whole Chapter)
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Colossians 2:8 (Whole Chapter)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 (Whole Chapter)
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
1 Peter 1:18 (Whole Chapter)
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
Which one do I follow?
I think it’s ovious
JLongoria
What do these have to do with the Tradition of the Apostles?
Would Peter be talking against the tradition in Thessalonians that Paul implies is good? And where does the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church contradict God?
You copy and paste quotes without any explaination of your intent, and you don’t even present an argument! It’s ridiculous! All of us here have introduced well thought out arguments and discussions, and you ignore them.
The least you could do is have the decency to give a well-thought out response as well.
These are not quotes they are scriptures from the KJVPlease, think about what you’re putting down, my friend!
If its a legal matter only, then how can you exclude them from the Covenant (treat as a tax-collector or Gentile… people outside the Covenant)?You are missing the point of this verse,this is basically a dispute between two people,with the Church simply being an arbritraitor,its not a biblical matter,rather a legal one.
Matthew 18:17 “And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”
But what gives the Church the authority to exclude them? Or the better and more accurate question is… “WHO gives the Church authority”?This is Christ teaching on matters between members of the body of Christ. Those outside the body of Christ are not part of this instruction. When this happens you set yourself apart from that person, and if it is your blood brother, you do the same. Don’t treat that person as an enemy, but as a brother that you just don’t care to be around, until the matter is tended to.