SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[n2thelight]

thistle Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
Simple,neither is scriptual

They are scriptural. Read these:

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
catholic.com/library/Pray…the_Saints.asp
catholic.com/library/inte…the_saints.asp
catholic.com/library/pray…the_saints.asp

Worked all night bout to get some sleep,but trust me I will read the links,but I will say this,not a one is scriptual,and that I will prove

 

[mercygate]

And do tell why not

Or are you saying that the Catholic Church decides whats scripture and what is not,and that it can be and not be at the same time?

Actually, the Catholic Church certainly did decide “what is scripture” when it canonized the New Testament and thereby “added to the Bible.”

All I am saying when I say that a belief not explicitly stated in Scripture is not necessarily “unscriptural” is that a belief may be implicit or may be logically derived from what is in Scripture.

The classic example of this is the delineation of the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity as One God in three co-equal, consubstantial, and co-eternal persons. The definition of the hypostatic union required the use of a non-scriptural word. But no Christian claims that the doctrine of the Trinity is “unscriptural” (except JWs and Mormons).

Before making a judgment that a Catholic teaching is “unscriptural” one must understand that teaching AS the Church understands and teaches it.

 

[sebestt]

The man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura also tripped up the scribes at the time of Jesus. I guess it is alive and well and many individuals that adopt that man-made tradition did not learn from their errors.

 

[Zenas]

Challenge accepted,start with the two above

Prayers to Mary and the saints are strongly implied in these passages:

1. Matthew 22:32–He is not God of the dead but God of the living.
2. Revelation 5:8 & 8:4–prayers of the saints.

Purgatory is strongly implied in these passages:

1. Luke 12:59–You will not get out until you have paid the very last cent.
2. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15–If any man’s work is burned up he will suffer loss, but he will be saved as through fire.

Now, it in incumbent on you to show how these doctrines are contradicted by Scripture.

 

[dcdurel]

Actually , there isn’t any reason why All Catholic teachings should be in scripture, because Jesus never said salvation comes by reading scripture or studying scripture.

And while some of His teachings are in the four written Gospels, there is no reason that any of these teachings have to be complete. Because Jesus never intended anyone to learn His Gospel by reading scripture.
For example. The complete teaching on the Eucharist is not in scripture. All we have is parts, here and there. If the complete teaching was in scripture, then all Christians would believe the same thing. But, they don’t. Protestants have no idea what Jesus meant when He said, “this is My body”. They can guess, and they have thousands of guesses. Even Catholics can’t know this teaching well, unless they learn very well what the Church teaches.

Let me explain:

1. Jesus is the fullness of revelation, not scripture.
2. Jesus taught everything to His apostles.
   Scripture is a witness to this teaching. **John 15:15 **“for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
   John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
3. Since now the apostles know the whole Gospel, then Jesus sends them to proclaim this Gospel, and “he who believes and is baptized will be saved.”
   Thus Jesus says salvation comes from believing the Gospel the apostles taught and preached. Why? Because this Gospel contains everything regarding salvation. Jesus and the Holy
   Spirit taught the apostles everything.

JESUS did not say salvation comes from believing scripture, the bible, or studying scripture or the bible.
Because no where does the bible claim to present this Gospel the apostles taught and preached. The four Gospels only claim to be a narrative of the life of Jesus. In presenting His life they do give some teachings, but these teachings are never complete, because Jesus never intended anyone to learn His Gospel by reading scripture. He intended everyone to learn His Gospel through the Church which He founded to proclaim this Gospel.

Scripture is salvation history. It does NOT claim to be the Gospel the apostles learned from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It does not claim anywhere to present the Gospel the apostles taught and preached, and which was so extensive it took the apostles 3 years, plus a repeat course by the Holy Spirit to make them remember it all.

So Jesus intended everyone to obtain salvation by believing the Gospel His Church taught and preached.
That is why there is no reason all Church teachings have to be in scripture and that is why the few teachings in scripture are never complete and explicit.

By the way, since the whole Gospel was taught and preached, then the whole Gospel was handed down in Tradition. Thus, the word of God the apostles handed down in Tradition was the whole Gospel they learned from Jesus.

  Anyone can learn what this Gospel is by learning what the early Christians believed who learned from the apostles.

The early Christians believed the same things the Church teaches today. Thus, the Gospel the apostle taught and preached was the Catholic faith.

 

[JRKH]

Question

What did Christ teach that was’nt written,and if it was’nt written how can you be sure He taught it

Christ always asked this question,have ye not read

Matthew 12:3
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Matthew 12:5
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Matthew 19:4
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Matthew 22:31
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Mark 12:10
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Mark 12:26
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Luke 6:3
And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

And that which He taught, is written

Anything else is a tradition of man

Tradition can take many forms other than - what is written or what is not. Tradition can and does relate to interpretation of what is written. The written word, especially in Biblical times could not communicate inflection, pace, body language etc. These are things that the Apostles could and did communicate in oral teaching of their disciples.
Also we must remember that people are great ones for asking, “Yea but what if…”. The Apostles, in teaching and expounding upon Jesus words passed on a great deal of wisdom that was not “captured” in the written documents.

As a Parallel example lets look at Classical music. When a Great composer such as Mozart wrote a piece, the music included the notes, words and many musical symbols. The Composer then would usually Conduct the Piece Himself, or at least oversee the rehersals so that the musicians would play exactly what the composer intended. Those conductors who were “Trained” by the composer then went on to train others in the intricacies of what the composer wished to achieve.
As time went by, the author’s intent has been passed down from generation to generation both in the written text of the music and in the “oral tradition” of the trained conductors and musicians.
Now certainly any competent orchestra and conductor can play what is written on the sheet music, but there are subtle and important nuances in the mind of the composer that the standard musical notation just doesn’t catch. Without access to the “Orally passed down Tradition” the skilled, but unaware orchestra will not get the music right.

Such is all Tradition.

Peace
James

 

[Gamera]

There is nothing wrong with tradition,but if it goes against the Word of God as many of the Catholic traditions do,then its simply not right.

Be aware that in Catholicism, there’s “Tradition” with a capital “T” and there’s “tradition” with a small “t.”

Capital “T” Tradition is the preaching of the Apostles (often called Apostolic Tradition or Sacred Tradition). Catholics believe Tradition with a capital “T” is God’s word just as much as is the Bible (1 Thes 2:13).

Small “t” tradition is only man’s word, not God’s word.

It’ll be important for you to know whether a particular “Catholic issue” you’d like to raise deals with Tradition or tradition.

 

[Gamera]

Simple,neither is scriptual

Both of your examples are found in the Bible, but first let’s deal with your underlying premise. Do you assert that something “goes against the Bible” if it simply isn’t in the Bible? An omission is not the same thing as a contradiction. No Scripture verse says that the Bible should be our SOLE source of knowledge of the Lord’s word. Just the opposite – 1 Thes 2:13 says that God’s word includes the Apostles’ preaching. So let’s define your claim better. Do you think prayer to saints and purgatory “go against” the Bible? Or do you think they simply are not in the Bible?

 

[TheGreenO]

saints and holy ones are synonymous

The following is from an email i sent to a couple of friends, it came from a book, and right now it slips my mind.

** Note to self and others, text out of context becomes a pretext.

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings of all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is on mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all."
–1 Tim 2:1-5

In this context we see St. Paul urging Christians to pray for each other. This in no way undermines Christ’s role as mediator for it “is acceptable in the sight of God”. The saints share in His mediation because they share in His life. These saints, “holy ones”, are sanctified by baptism and include those in heaven and earth. And whether in heaven or earth they can intercede for us because of this sharing of His life. Why distinguish as those who are alive on earth are better suited than those who are alive in heaven, for they are much more alive then anyone on earth?

** "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.  By this My Father is glorified" -Jn 15:7-8**

They do not take His place, they are glorified in God, He has shared His glory with them. Isn’t this the point of salvation, that we can share in His life and glory? We honor the saints imitating Christ because He first honored them, and bless those who he has blessed.

"Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord" -Rev 14:13

In Hebrews 11:13,16 we see those who are in the city of God, and then in 12:1 we see “so great a cloud of witnesses”. When this is being written, to the Hebrews, they know that this “cloud” is the Shekinah glory cloud. We definitely know that there are those from the OT who are there sharing in His glory, such as Moses. And what did John see in his vision of heaven?

"a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" - Rev 7:4

John saw heaven in Revelation

"in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" -Rev 1:10

In his vision he sees a multitude of saints(holy ones) grouped as martyrs, virgins, and confessors.

1. The martyrs

When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?“Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.” -Rev 6:9-11
-They communicate with God

-They call out and He responds

-They are aware of events on earth

-They plead the cause of the just vs. the unjust

-They plead the Church against its persecutors

-They have some knowledge of the future by the grace of God

-They know what will happen to other servants and brethren

These confirm the martyrs are a “cloud of witnesses” around those on earth.

And they intercede for the cause of the Church

1. The confessors

I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
"For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them. -Rev 7:14-15

And we see that their service is prayer…
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. - Rev 8:3-4

Then the prayers in heaven effect the earth…
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. -Rev 8:5

Here again those in heaven are blessed as well as those blessed on earth…

I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” said the Spirit, “let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them.” - Rev 14:13

So as we see that those in heaven aren’t simply observers, they too are “co-workers” with Christ. Mediating with Him for the cause of those upon the earth. Those prayers have an effect on the earth, too. Saints will forever point us to Christ, they do not replace, distract, or lead us away from Him. They eternally point us to a life devoted to Him and a relationship with Him. And is he not our Logos, center, and meaning to everything that we know?

 

[Church_Militant]

Lets start with two

Praying to Mary and the Saints and purgatory

I base all that I say from the Word,and one of them is judge not least ye be judged,so no I did not come here to judge

Challenge accepted,start with the two above

No problem, The Communion of saints is very much found in scripture.

MP3 Bible study.The Communion of Saints
The notes for it are here.

Purgatory is also found in the Bible and has a direct counterpart in the teachings of Judaism from which Christianity comes.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Worked all night bout to get some sleep,but trust me I will read the links,but I will say this,not a one is scriptual,and that I will prove

Yeah, right…

 

[n2thelight]

1. Death disrupts the interaction between saints on earth and saints in heaven

We believe in the communion of the saints – whether we are on earth or in heaven, we have a joint participation in the grace of Jesus Christ. However that does not imply that death does nothing to the interaction between us! We all know something of the painful and terrible reality of death separating us from our loved ones. The soul of the departed is alive and conscious – in heaven or hell, but there is no communication between the departed and us. That’s why the Bible forbids us from trying to communicate with the dead.

A paralyzed limb is still very much part of the body, yet it does not respond to the body’s commands. Similarly, the dead saints remain part of the body of Christ, but there is an effective separation from the living saints. The same Lord who healed paralytics during his earthly ministry will one day give His people a glorified and immortal body and gather us all together. Until then we must face the sad consequence of death: separation!

1. Praying to the saints in not equivalent to asking fellow Christians for prayer

This excuse may be convincing to some Christians who never had any personal experience of the Catholic religion. Otherwise, every Catholic (and former Catholic) knows that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different than asking a fellow believer for prayer.

Suppose a Christian brother comes and kneels before you, imploring you with great devotion to pray for him. Would you allow him? How would you react if he calls you his advocate, his hope and refuge? What if he thanks you for the many graces you conferred on him and for delivering him from hell? Suppose he tells you that he confines his salvation to your care and pleads with you to stay with him until you see him safe in heaven?

Would you call that “asking a fellow Christian for prayer”? Of course not! That kind of prayer and confidence is nothing less than divine worship and it should be directed only to the Lord Jesus Christ. And yet that is exactly the kind of prayer that Catholics offer to Mary and the saints. For instance, read the following prayer to Mary by St. Alphonsus.

Most holy, immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary! To you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today, I who am the most miserable of all. I render you my most humble homage, O great Queen, and I thank you for all the graces you have conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved. I love you, O most amiable Lady; and for the love which I bear you, I promise to serve you always and to do all in my power to make others love you also. I place in you all my hopes; I confide my salvation to your care. Accept me for your servant and receive me under your mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since you are so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations; or rather, obtain to me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of you I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ. Through you I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which you bear to God, I beseech you to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech you, until you see me safe in heaven, blessing you and singing your mercies for all eternity. Amen. So I hope. So may it be.

Ask yourself whether this sounds like asking another Christian to pray for you, or whether this is the kind of prayer should only be addressed to God. Would you call another Christian your advocate, hope and refuge? Do you thank another Christian for all the graces he or she conferred on you? Would you thank another Christian for delivering you from hell? Do you place in any other Christian all your hope and confine your salvation to his or her care? Whose mercies would you be singing in all eternity?

 

[n2thelight]

Purgatory

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die in Christ we are cleansed, at the instant of death,we don’t have to go off somewhere to be cleansed.

To imply that we are punished for sins already forgiven is to call Christ a lair when I repent my sin are not even remembered by God,so how and why do I need to be cleansed of them?

When you repent for your sins, then all those sins are washed away and will never more be remembered by God. They are blotted out and all that remains is your name in the Lamb’s book of Life. Friend, the Lamb is Christ was sacrificed for any sin that you have repented of, so get of the guilt trip once you have repented. When you are saved you still are in this flesh body and will fall short and then you don’t need to be saved all over again, but you need to repent of that sin, and get on with your life. It is a kin to blasphemy when you keep hanging on to old sin’s guilt, once you have repented of them. It is saying that Christ’s blood was not enough to pay the price.

 

[n2thelight]

Mark 7:5 "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why walk not Thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?”

Mark 7:6 "He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honoureth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.’

Mark 7:7 “Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Mark 7:8 “For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.”

How serious these words of our Lord; how we ought to give them our full attention! We are bound to repeat the same mistakes of the Pharisees unless we take heed. Christ warns us plainly of the tendency of man’s religious inventions to supplant the Word of God. Three times he charged the Pharisees: “Laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men.” “You reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” “Making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” The origin of their traditions was lost in antiquity, but these old traditions came to be regarded as authoritative. The Pharisees expected everyone to obey, and they were offended because the disciples did not keep these regulations. The Scriptures were interpreted by their traditions, and so, in practice, tradition superseded the written Word. The end result was disastrous. Like the addition of a small amount of poison to a beaker of water, so is the addition of human tradition to God Word. The Word of God is rendered “of no effect” – void and useless to true spirituality.

The Pharisees censured the disciples of Christ because they ignored their venerated “tradition of the elders.” Today Roman bishops do the same to Christians because we would not follow their “Sacred Traditions” – they curse us for not saluting their images; sternly warn us that we stand condemned and have fallen away from the divine faith because we do not believe their novel Marian dogmas, and exclude our communities from the universal church because we do not submit to the bishop of the capital of the old Roman Empire.

It would be much better for you as a Catholic to question whether your church has fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees of old. For if “Sacred Tradition” is nothing but doctrines of human origin rather than the holy Word of God, the consequences are dreadful. Remember God’s warning: “In vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.”

 

[Church_Militant]

1. Death disrupts the interaction between saints on earth and saints in heaven

Does it? That’s not what Hebrews 12:1 teaches.
The Intercession & Communion of Saints

That’s why the Bible forbids us from trying to communicate with the dead.

Necromancy, which is calling up the dead to attempt to foretell the future is what is forbidden. Christianity has always recorded prayers for the intercession of the faithful departed saints. Their tombs can be found with such prayers on them to this day.

1. Praying to the saints in not equivalent to asking fellow Christians for prayer

This excuse may be convincing to some Christians who never had any personal experience of the Catholic religion. Otherwise, every Catholic (and former Catholic) knows that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different than asking a fellow believer for prayer.

Not so. There is no difference at all and you cannot provide an authoritative Catholic teaching to the contrary.

Your quoted prayer is not such a document. If you want to oppose something, I suggest that you oppose what the church actually teaches and not some personal devotion.

Purgatory

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die in Christ we are cleansed, at the instant of death,we don’t have to go off somewhere to be cleansed.

Really? That’s not what the Word of God says. Matthew 22:11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 1213 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent.

To imply that we are punished for sins already forgiven is to call Christ a lair when I repent my sin are not even remembered by God,so how and why do I need to be cleansed of them?

Hmmm, maybe you should read this from the 6th chapter of Isaiah. 1] In the year that King Uzzi’ah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple.
2] Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3] And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
4] And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
5] And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
6] Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
7] And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.”

It is a kin to blasphemy when you keep hanging on to old sin’s guilt, once you have repented of them. It is saying that Christ’s blood was not enough to pay the price.

:yawn: Yeah boy…I sure hang on to a lot of guilt. NOT!

(Cont’d)

 

[Zenas]

N2thelight, I’m disappointed. I gave you scriptural authority for Purgatory and for praying to Mary and the saints, and pointed out that it is incumbent on you to show how these doctrines contradict scripture. Instead, you come out with two posts that amount to no more than a long rant against Catholic doctrines that I really wonder whether you actually composed, and you don’t cite a single verse of scripture. If these doctrines contradict the “Word of God” as you say, you need to show us how and where.

You don’t cite any scripture at all until your 3rd serial post and theses citations are used (improperly I might add) to denounce Sacred Tradition. I assure you, n2thelight, that there is a major difference between the traditions of men which Christ denounced and the Sacred Tradition of the Church which is also the Word of God. See,* e.g*., Matthew 23:2-3 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 3:6.

 

[Church_Militant]

messed up code

 

[Church_Militant]

Mark 7:5-8
How serious these words of our Lord; how we ought to give them our full
attention! We are bound to repeat the same mistakes of the Pharisees
unless we take heed. Christ warns us plainly of the tendency of man’s
religious inventions to supplant the Word of God.

Yeah, I wouldn’t wanna be involved in that! that’s one reason that I have made sure that I believed the same Gospel that the apostles preached. Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

The Scriptures were interpreted by their traditions, and so, in practice, tradition superseded the written Word.

So I have yet to see anywhere in the Word of God where it says that it is the final authority for all that Christians believe and practice. It’s simply not in there.

However, it does say the following about the church.1st Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth

Like the addition of a small amount of poison to a beaker of water, so is the addition of human tradition to God Word. The Word of God is rendered “of no effect” – void and useless to true spirituality.

That would pretty much fit my opinion of the majority of the new winds of doctrines of the modern post reformation step children today.

Today Roman bishops do the
same to Christians because we would not follow their “Sacred
Traditions” – they curse us for not saluting their images; sternly
warn us that we stand condemned and have fallen away from the divine
faith because we do not believe their novel Marian dogmas, and exclude
our communities from the universal church because we do not submit to
the bishop of the capital of the old Roman Empire.

Complete and total anti-Catholic propaganda.

We are not and never have been part of the Roman Empire and you cannot cite the least historical evidence that says that we were, though I’d love to see you attempt it.

The original “Reformers” brought their own condemnation and their errant doctrines were refuted then and those refutations that were valid then are still valid today.

The items that you mention are not the actual reasons for any problems between the modern post reformation step children and the Catholic Church. In simplest terms, it actually does come down to the different gospel that they preach.

It would be much better for you as a Catholic to question whether your church has fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees of old. For if “Sacred Tradition” is nothing but doctrines of human origin rather than the holy Word of God, the consequences are dreadful. Remember God’s
warning: “In vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the
commandments of men.”

Actually it would be better still if you had the courage of your supposed conviction and examined what you have been taught outside of the Catholic Church to verify its veracity.

The fact is that the real “doctrines of men” are the errant inventions that came into being some 500 years ago.

The scripture does not teach that it is the sole rule of faith for what Christians believe and practice, and the early church writings conclusively show that they did not hold to Sola Scriptura as preached today. MATERIAL AND FORMAL SUFFICIENCY (This Rock: October 1993)

Nor did they preach any form of Sola Fide as taught outside the Catholic Church today. Why? Because the Word of God does not teach it either.

They did, in fact, teach that anyone who denied the Eucharistic Real Presence as taught in the Word of God is a heretic to be avoided. The Eucharist IS Scriptural

These are just a few examples of why the modern post reformation step children find themselves at odds with the Catholic Church. It’s very much a case of historical ignorance and twisted scriptures that has resulted in a great many n-Cs preaching a whole different gospel than the one preached by Our Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles in the New Testament.That’s the facts of the matter.

 

[Gamera]

Purgatory

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die in Christ we are cleansed, at the instant of death,we don’t have to go off somewhere to be cleansed.

To imply that we are punished for sins already forgiven is to call Christ a lair when I repent my sin are not even remembered by God,so how and why do I need to be cleansed of them?

When you repent for your sins, then all those sins are washed away and will never more be remembered by God. They are blotted out and all that remains is your name in the Lamb’s book of Life. Friend, the Lamb is Christ was sacrificed for any sin that you have repented of, so get of the guilt trip once you have repented. When you are saved you still are in this flesh body and will fall short and then you don’t need to be saved all over again, but you need to repent of that sin, and get on with your life. It is a kin to blasphemy when you keep hanging on to old sin’s guilt, once you have repented of them. It is saying that Christ’s blood was not enough to pay the price.

So you’re saying St. Paul committed blasphemy when he prayed for the soul of dead Onesiphorus (2 Tim 1:18)?

If I steal a dollar and repent, Jesus will forgive me — but I still owe my victim his dollar. I can’t shrug off my victim and say, “I don’t owe you anything, Jesus forgave me, I refuse to go on a guilt trip.” We are accountable for the temporal consequences of our sins, even after the sins are forgiven. Paying back the dollar isn’t a “guilt trip.” It isn’t “having to be saved all over again.” It is called responsibility.

You’re essentially saying that I should tell the victim, “I refuse to pay you back your dollar because Jesus paid it all on the cross.” And you are accusing us of blasphemy? Sorry, I love Jesus too much to abuse His sacrifice like that.

 

[TheGreenO]

Have you read anything we have posted at all n2thelight? Seems you aren’t here for a discussion, your possibly just out to win a battle.

 

[sebestt]

n2thelight:

Do you believe in the man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura? I feel too he/she is not here for a discussion but to use his/her own personal fallible interpretation of the Word of God to make false accusations. I will definitely pray for you n2thelight.