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SD_Catholic
Guest
Than why for over 1500 years did Christians disagree with you?.. including the reformers… I guess they were all less intelligent than a child
SD
SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?
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SD
J
JRKH
Guest
There is no “Catholic Bible”. That term is only used to distinguish a Bible which contains all of the Books which the Spirit Guided councils from the 4th century on confirmed as inspired, from the incomplete bibles of the protestant reformation. The King James Version is one such incomplete bible.
The fact that you are so unaware of the development of the Bible which you hold in your hand demonstrates how much you still need to learn.
Peace
James
T
TobyLue
Guest
cfrancis
It would seem only courteous that after somebody starts a thread with a question and its answered, they would at least have some sort of reply. Instead its carried over to questions about the “Catholic Bible”, purgatory not in the bible, Mary’s sinlessness not in the Bible, and all have been soundly refuted but N2tl will come up with some other diversion.
For that reason I’m saying goodbye to this thread.
God Bless all------
I seriously doubt that you will get an answer from n2thelight, just as I will never get an answer on my question that answered his OP. N2tl must be diligently searching through some anti-catholic websites trying to find a suitable answer.
It would seem only courteous that after somebody starts a thread with a question and its answered, they would at least have some sort of reply. Instead its carried over to questions about the “Catholic Bible”, purgatory not in the bible, Mary’s sinlessness not in the Bible, and all have been soundly refuted but N2tl will come up with some other diversion.
For that reason I’m saying goodbye to this thread.
God Bless all------
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
That’s the standard approach – ask a question, and ignore the answer, then ask another and another, and hope to swamp the Catholics with so many questions that they give up.
The counter to that is just what you’re doing – stick with the orginal question and answer it, and demand acknowledgement. Don’t let them run off into lala land with hundreds of unrelated questions.
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mercygate
Guest
Um. The hypostatic union? Was Mary begotten of the Father before the foundation of the world, the only begotten Son of God?
But in a sense, spiritually, she DID pay a very great price for our sins in that not only God the Father, but Mary, too, gave her only Son that we might not perish but have everlasting life.
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mercygate
Guest
in our language].
1 Timothy 4:14
I charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to keep these rules without prejudice, doing nothing out of favoritism. Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another’s sins. Keep yourself pure.
1 Timothy 5:21-22
Uh oh, it looks like we have something here with these two pieces of Scripture! “What is it”, you ask? First, proof that all these things are necessary for the Christian, as actual matters of the faith (as per the quotation from Hebrews). But also, just as importantly, proof from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is only conferred upon those whom the Apostles laid hands upon, with the intention that this practice was to continue for all Christians!
All these pieces of Scripture seem to indicate that only by the laying of hands by those who were chosen will a Christian be filled with the Holy Spirit.
To know who or how people are chosen, look at the quote from 1 Timothy 5:21-22. He was no Apostle, yet he was chosen by St. Paul to continue on what the Apostles had been charged by Christ to do. And when the time was right, Timothy chose someone else to continue on the legacy.
So, to answer your question, you can’t be filled with the Holy Spirit unless you have hands laid upon you by a bishop. And as Catholics, we lay claim to such succession that Protestants could never even hope for.
I sincerely pray that you actually read this, because thusfar you swiftly ignore much of the treasure that people have written.
Just to add a note to this good elucidation, we DO receive the Holy Spirit in many ways without the sacramental office of the Church - otherwise nobody would ever be converted to Christ.
Moreover, the Holy Spirit can open the eyes of a perfect heathen who picks up a Bible and begins to read the Gospel.
However, when a Christian picks up a Bible and asks the Holy Spirit to guide him into all the truth, he is asking to be guided into the ONLY truth we can be sure of: That promised to the Eleven by Our Lord in John 14 and again at the Great Commission: to the Eleven. If the “spirit” guides me into some other “truth” than that discerned and taught by the Apostles and their successors, then it ain’t THE Truth, and it ain’t the Holy Spirit doin’ the guiding.
Why do people have so much trouble understanding that? Our Lord’s prayer wras that “they all might be one” not that "they all might interpret Scripture independently of the Church that wrote it.
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guanophore
Guest
Jesus’ promise to the Church that they would be led into all Truth can be acquired by all those who are in union with the Chuch to whom he made the promise. This is His own Church, built upon Peter, the Apostles and prophets being the foundation, of which He Himself is the head. Many men have left, and started their own churches. The promise has not been extended to them.
Anyone in whom the HS is dwelling will believe in the Teachings of the Catholic Church.
God desires that all of us be without sin. Mary is his demonstration of what the Spirit of His Grace will do for us. He chose Mary for a particular role in salvation history that no one else did or can fulfill. However ,He did not choose her to pay our ransom, He did that Himself. God could have chosen to redeem us in any number of ways. He chose to die on the cross for us. He did not choose this role for Mary, or for anyone else.
You have been taught wrongly about the Church, and you make such statements in ignorance. The Church cannot err, because she has Christ as her Head, and is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. these divine elements prevent the church from error.
“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish”. Eph 5:25-28
She is holy, cleansed, without spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind.
In answer to your question, there have been many wicked men joined to Holy Mother Church. Men are capable of base wickedness, and have promulgated many sins in the name of God. However, the actions of wicked persons do not nullify the work of Christ. Although the HS will leave those who sin, the HS will not leave the Church, because if that were to happen, the church would no longer exist. The Church has no soul without the HS.
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guanophore
Guest
I see the point you are making about the laying on of hands, and the succession, and I agree with you. However, God is not bound by the sacrament, He can (and does) pour out His spirit upon those whom He chooses. Some of these persons are outside the boundaries where he has called them to reside.
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guanophore
Guest
This one made me LOL! You are asking the right question to the wrong people. Your question needs to be directed to the Reformers, and their successors, who took the books out that had been approved. There are some books that are just too “Catholic” and were a stench in the nostrils.
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mercygate
Guest
You’re giving me whiplash here.
I am often a staunch defender of the KJV here. But are you suggesting that the Bible was written in Stuart English, and that the Church was not in possession of the Scriptures before 1611? Are you suggesting that the manuscripts from which the KJV was translated (the best in their day) have not been surpassed by the thousands of ancient manuscripts that have come to light in the last 2500 years? Are you suggesting that the KJV, which included the Deuterocanonical books upon its publication, has been “improved upon” by the deletion of those books?
I don’t know whether to laugh, cry, or just shake my head in disbelief that anybody who professes to be a “Bible Christian” could think that the Bible wasn’t “put together right” until 1611.
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JLongoria
Guest
Oh for sure! I agree 110%!
I think, however, there is a certain cooperation required to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I myself have yet to be confirmed, though I do desire it greatly; but I do believe that the Holy Spirit is still at work in me when I desire to go to confession, or Mass, or seek to understand more about Christ.
Yet it is only through confirmation that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, becoming a slave to it, and where baptismal grace is pefected; it marks maturity of the soul.
So no matter what works the Holy Spirit may commit through me until then, I am not filled with it. The laying of hands, with my total cooperation, is necessary for that much.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I am reminded of a book called, If Nothin’ Don’t Happen. Based on family stories, it was set in backwoods Florida, around the turn of the century. The mother was a fundamentalist, and her oldest son used to like to tease her with biblical arguments.
In one argument, she showed him that Jesus said, “It IS such-and-such.” He emphasized the word “is.” She knew He empahsized that word, because in her bible, that word was in italics.
J
JRKH
Guest
I agree. It is a sad situation.
I remember thinking, when I first saw the thread, that it was an interesting question and it would be interesting to see the answers posted.
I had hoped that n2thelight would take the information supplied and discuss issues such as the ECF’s and Sacred Tradition. Of course that didn’t happen. It had to degenerate into a verse, counter-verse argument. Now it has reached such rediculous statements as “Mary was never virgin” and, “If this is the case,why have a Catholic Bible,why not just put it together right the first time…Or do you not accept the KJV?”
I can only hope that n2thelight, after reading these responses, is encouraged to study more openly and deeply into the history of the Bible, the Church and our common faith in Jesus.
Peace
James
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NotWorthy
Guest
No, I’m not saying that. I know several Non-Catholic Christians that I would consider to be abundantly filled with the Holy Spirit, even admiring their zeal for Him.
My thoughts on a Non-Catholic Christian and his road to salvation are like a football coach wanting to win the Super Bowl without his star running back, receiver, and line-backer. He can still win without them, but it’s going to be a lot more difficult.
In the above example, I consider the Eucharist as my star running back, the Sacrament of Confession as my star wide receiver, and the Communion of Saints as my linebacker.
But in regards to your query, I would assume the Holy Spirit indwells numerous Christians, but He is gently directing them to the Catholic Church - but sometimes we shut out that message, whatever that message may be.
P.S. I’m sorry if I implied what you thought, my brother!
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NotWorthy
Guest
Mary was a creature. No, she could not have been the perfect sacrifice.
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NotWorthy
Guest
JL, although I like your spirit and your knowledge, I think you are incorrect in this statement. We consider the Christian Baptism as valid, and it seals us with the Holy Spirit. So, in my view, you may be going a little overboard with this statement.
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Lisdogan
Guest
If one believes that our God has more than one facet or nature, then it is possible to see Abba God as our personal, immanent God, and God Creator, and the transcendent omnipotent power of the unknown eternal and universal. The same way Jesus of Nazareth is also the Christ, Son of God and Man, Redeemer.
No? I think yes. I believe Einstein was aware of this possibility but an not, in the end, absolutely sure what he ascribed to. His beliefs have been described in many ways.
In Christ
L
Lisdogan
Guest
OK, I take your point of view, if you take mine. For I have seen, all my Protestant life which has now been given over to the Catholic Church, that mainstream Protestant ministers pray *with *their congregations, and though they may lead in prayer, they do not ask the congregation to do any interceding.
We have clearly attended different services: and that is the difficulty of discussing what Protestants believe or do, is it not. It is this that leads to tarring all with the same brush.
In Christ
G
guanophore
Guest
Cornelius and his household were filled while Peter was preaching, as I think some people are still today. In the Eastern Church, infants receive baptism, chrismation (confirmation) and eucharist all at the same time.
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JLongoria
Guest
From Catechism of the Catholic Church,
II. The Signs and the Rite of Confirmation
1293
In treating the rite of Confirmation, it is fitting to consider the sign of anointing and what it signifies and imprints: a spiritual seal.
Anointing, in Biblical and other ancient symbolism, is rich in meaning: oil is a sign of abundance and joy; it cleanses (anointing before and after a bath) and limbers (the anointing of athletes and wrestlers); oil is a sign of healing, since it is soothing to bruises and wounds; and it makes radiant with beauty, health, and strength.
**1294 **
Anointing with oil has all these meanings in the sacramental life. The pre-baptismal anointing with the oil of catechumens signifies cleansing and strengthening; the anointing of the sick expresses healing and comfort. The post-baptismal anointing with sacred chrism in Confirmation and ordination is the sign of consecration. By Confirmation Christians, that is, those who are anointed, share more completely in the mission of Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Holy Spirit with which he is filled, so that their lives may give off “the aroma of Christ.”
**1295 **
By this anointing the confirmand receives the “mark,” the seal of the Holy Spirit. A seal is a symbol of a person, a sign of personal authority, or ownership of an object. Hence soldiers were marked with their leader’s seal and slaves with their master’s. A seal authenticates a juridical act or document and occasionally makes it secret.
**1296 **
Christ himself declared that he was marked with his Father’s seal. Christians are also marked with a seal: “It is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has commissioned us; he has put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.” This seal of the Holy Spirit marks our total belonging to Christ, our enrollment in his service for ever, as well as the promise of divine protection in the great eschatological trial
Like all sacraments, baptism confers grace upon the believer, just as confirmation does the same. Yet the spiritual mark, the seal, is different for the sacrament of baptism than the one that is given by the sacrament of confirmation.
Again, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church,
An indelible spiritual mark . . .
**1272 **
Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
**1273 **
Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship. The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.
**1274 **
The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) “for the day of redemption.” “Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life.” The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life “marked with the sign of faith,” with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God—the consummation of faith—and in the hope of resurrection
Emphases in these quotations was already present.
The “seal of the Lord”, which signifies our belonging to Christ, is the mark we are given by baptism; the seal of the Holy Spirit is what we are given by confirmation.
Such is the progress of the Christians spiritual growth; we are first baptized, which makes us a posession of Christ. Just as the Samarians had not received the Holy Spirit until hands were laid upon them (cf. Acts 8:14-16), we too must be confirmed in order to receive the mark of the Holy Spirit.
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