SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

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So why do you all take the popes word for how scripture is inturpreted?
n2, there are hardly any “popes word” on how scripture is to be interpreted. You are functioning under a false premise here. The popes subscribe, as all of us do, to Apostolic Teaching. The Scripture is to be interpreted in the light of the Divine Deposit of Faith, of which the pope is a custodian, along with his brother bishops.
Are you saying just because one disagrees with you its anti?
Not necessarily. In your case, you appear to be regurgitating a great deal of anti-Catholic rhetoric. One wonders if you are really interested in learning what Catholics really believe, since you are so busy cutting and pasting from anti - Catholic websites.🤷
I don’t feel you refuted any of my positions,all you did was try an tell me what scripture meant by your understanding of it,to which I totally disagree with.
The problem is, n2, that you were totally disagreeable before you came, so it is unlikely, with your closed mind and heart, that trying to explain to you that what you think we believe is not what we believe will avail much. 😦
Im here on this site on my own,expressing my views,which are different than all of yours,as I expected for I am on a Catholic site,let me extend an invatation to the site where I am a regular member, Im not asking you to join,just check it out.
Ok, but the purpose of CAF is not to provide a venue for your anti-Catholic views. The purpose is to answer questions (genuine) about what Catholics believe. If you are not willing to learn, then you are just taking up time and space.
Code:
Im a Holy Spirit filled, God fearing Christian,denomanalized by no group,my Church is the body of Christ with its many membered body of believers with Christ as the head with no one member greater than the other.
How do you account for the fact that Jesus said that some members of the Kingdom are greater than others?
Brings me to my next question,if one is not a member of the Catholic Church is that person in danger of going to hell?
Everyone who is born under the consequence of original sin is in danger of going to hell. Jesus provided for a way out, through HIs sacrifice on the cross. He entrusted the preaching and teaching of His gospel to HIs apostles, and they to their successors. Those who are not in union with the Apostolic successors are lacking in elements of the teaching of Jesus. All who are lacking have a more difficult time escaping the fires of hell, since only the Truth will provide escape, and they are missing parts of it.
 
Brings me to my next question,. . . .
Not so fast, my friend. You have asked and been given resonable answers to many question.
Now it is your turn to answer, if you can. Though it is clear and apparent that you cannot!

Jesus clearly rejected the kind of division that Protestantism has multiplied into thousands upon thousands of different sects all claiming to have the Holy Spirit as a guide. Jesus founded one Church. He didn’t even leave any writings, he left his teachings in the hands of The Apostles. The fullness of what Jesus taught was passed down through the generations by The Church. Jesus said to the Apostles, who were the leaders of The Church, “he who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me.” Eventually some was written down and became the New Testament. We can be sure of the Truths both written and unwritten in the same way, because it was passed down by The Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

What does the Bible say about this?
Does the Bible say that the Bible is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?
NO! The most that Holy Scripture ever claims for itself is that it is profitable for reproof, for correction and for instruction.

Does the Bible say that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?
You bet.

The Church and Scripture are inseparable. St. Paul of Tarsus says in his letter to the Ephesians that it is through The Church that the manifold wisdom of God is made known.
The Church was founded by Jesus Christ and was sustained by Sacred Tradition for many many years before a word of the New Testament was ever written. If you check into it, you will find that The Church came well before any of the writings of the New Testament.

You claim to be a bible christian and the Bible says that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. So why don’t you follow the Bible? Why do you dispute what is written in The Word of God?

If you would like to learn more about the Truths of Jesus Christ and His Church, contact your local parish today. Or you can visit http://www.catholicscomehome.org/epic/epic120.phtml or http://www.chnetwork.org/

Your Servant in Christ
 
Gotta love the shotgun approach…

I just glanced through this page and it seemed like on every page we are discussing something new…

By the way…

N2…

There are better ways to ask your questions…

Asking like this:

“It is my understanding that the churches teaches that you have to earn your way into heaven”
will ALWAYS get much better and cordial responses than like this:

“Why do you Catholics go against scripture by teaching a works based salvation…”

This way just shows hatred, not love…

And how, may I ask have you been asking questions…

In Christ
I recommend reading “Chariots of the Gods” by Erich Von Danniken. Read it to study the techniques Von Danniken uses to “prove” the earth was peopled by “ancient astronauts.”
  1. Pick your proofs carefully – Von Danniken likes to use things like Mayan stelae.
  2. Use them out of context. Von Danniken crops a Mayan stela to show only a part of it.
  3. Twist them. Von Danniken turns the picture 90 degrees to present the crouching warrior from the stela as if he were an “astronaut” in a space capsule.
  4. Overwhelm the audience – rush on to the next piece of “evidence.”
 
So why do you all take the popes word for how scripture is inturpreted?

Are you saying just because one disagrees with you its anti?

I don’t feel you refuted any of my positions,all you did was try an tell me what scripture meant by your understanding of it,to which I totally disagree with.

Im here on this site on my own,expressing my views,which are different than all of yours,as I expected for I am on a Catholic site,let me extend an invatation to the site where I am a regular member, Im not asking you to join,just check it out.

christianityboard.com/

Im a Holy Spirit filled, God fearing Christian,denomanalized by no group,my Church is the body of Christ with its many membered body of believers with Christ as the head with no one member greater than the other.

Brings me to my next question,if one is not a member of the Catholic Church is that person in danger of going to hell?
Bless you for your faith and defense of Christ. In this world, that is increasingly important as the evil one draws ever closer.

However, Christ founded one church, correct? He did not make little communities and leave it go. That would ensure that the faith died, as it would have no leader, and arguing and bickering would cause it all to fall apart. One church. A point to remember.

Christ’s faith is one of obedience, as in “Keep my commandments”. This means that we must submit to Christ, as well as the church He alone founded. Since He knows everything, he knew what the early church would look like. He knew what it would grow into. It had to cover the entire earth - all races, languages, nations, times and places. That is why, in the first century, it was known as the universal church. It remains that. One church.

If you show where our Holy Father has erred on matters of faith and morals, you will have a strong argument. We’re not talking about the actions of past leaders, all of whom have been sinners, as is Benedict XVI. Faith and morals. The Catholic church is the “go to” source for moral issues, as I doubt many of the thousands of Protestant denominations can produce the evidence of having the authority to make these extremely difficult decisions on morality - what with cloning, embryonic stem cell research, etc. It was only the Catholic church that held fast, and still does on contraception. All other churches began to cave in during the 1930s. The One church held fast.

Christ’s church had to have absolute authority, not only because it was lead by the Holy Spirit, but because it had to exist forever, until His Blessed return. Look at it this way: where you work, there is a mission statement, right? Now, does the boss tell everyone to read it and do their own thing? Or, is the boss in charge to see that everyone is kept on the same page? Thus it is with the One church. We have a leader, who is guided by the Holy Spirit, to keep us focused on Christ, to keep us together, as One church.

You disagree because your interpretation of scripture is to your liking. Well, we accept the interpretation that is to God’s liking, even though we disagree and personally differ. We submit, out of love of Christ, as should all Christians. Christ was the Authority when He walked with us. He knew that someone had to be in charge after He ascended, or His church, His One church, would fall apart. The Catholic church is the oldest organization in the world. Coincidence? No! It does not change because it cannot change - and is roundly criticized for being “out of step”, “behind the times”, etc. But, the Lord’s truth does not change. It is as stone, and so should His One church be.

Oh, yeah! Jesus Christ will be with us until the end of the age, correct? How? He sent the Holy Spirit, but Christ is not the Holy Spirit. So, how does He remain with us? The Eucharist. That is the only reason to be Christian. The Eucharist, as celebrated by the twelve, Paul, the early church fathers, and every generation since, IS Christ. Our spiritual food. We “commune” withHim. We carry Him within us! Amazing! Catholics, Orthodox and some others know this. We absolutely love Christ. We are so in love with Him that we spend time with Him, in His physical presence, during mass and at Adoration. He refreshes and sustains us.

You are a true brother in Christ, and we salute you. Especially your fervor for the Lord. However, Jesus Christ founded One church. We obey His command, we deny ourselves, we take up our cross daily. We try, hard as we might, to follow. So much of what you “know” about Christ’s one church is misinformation or incomplete. If you truly, to the depth of your soul, knew what Christ’s one church was, you would inquire as to how you might be one with all believers in the world. It is not by making a church that you agree with, it is by repenting and making yourself agree with the Lord.

That is what we have done. Please, keep asking questions, but with a mind that is open to a much more ancient faith. It is much different (yet much the same) as yours, due to this very fact of antiquity.

Now, I have gone on perhaps too long. But even one soul is not too great a price to pay, for our Lord paid a tremendous price for us. We extend the hand of brotherly love to you. All we ask is that you listen and see the reason behind the One church.

Christ’s peace always be with you.
 
Bless you for your faith and defense of Christ. In this world, that is increasingly important as the evil one draws ever closer.

However, Christ founded one church, correct? He did not make little communities and leave it go. That would ensure that the faith died, as it would have no leader, and arguing and bickering would cause it all to fall apart. One church. A point to remember.

Christ’s faith is one of obedience, as in “Keep my commandments”. This means that we must submit to Christ, as well as the church He alone founded. Since He knows everything, he knew what the early church would look like. He knew what it would grow into. It had to cover the entire earth - all races, languages, nations, times and places. That is why, in the first century, it was known as the universal church. It remains that. One church.

If you show where our Holy Father has erred on matters of faith and morals, you will have a strong argument. We’re not talking about the actions of past leaders, all of whom have been sinners, as is Benedict XVI. Faith and morals. The Catholic church is the “go to” source for moral issues, as I doubt many of the thousands of Protestant denominations can produce the evidence of having the authority to make these extremely difficult decisions on morality - what with cloning, embryonic stem cell research, etc. It was only the Catholic church that held fast, and still does on contraception. All other churches began to cave in during the 1930s. The One church held fast.

Christ’s church had to have absolute authority, not only because it was lead by the Holy Spirit, but because it had to exist forever, until His Blessed return. Look at it this way: where you work, there is a mission statement, right? Now, does the boss tell everyone to read it and do their own thing? Or, is the boss in charge to see that everyone is kept on the same page? Thus it is with the One church. We have a leader, who is guided by the Holy Spirit, to keep us focused on Christ, to keep us together, as One church.

You disagree because your interpretation of scripture is to your liking. Well, we accept the interpretation that is to God’s liking, even though we disagree and personally differ. We submit, out of love of Christ, as should all Christians. Christ was the Authority when He walked with us. He knew that someone had to be in charge after He ascended, or His church, His One church, would fall apart. The Catholic church is the oldest organization in the world. Coincidence? No! It does not change because it cannot change - and is roundly criticized for being “out of step”, “behind the times”, etc. But, the Lord’s truth does not change. It is as stone, and so should His One church be.

Oh, yeah! Jesus Christ will be with us until the end of the age, correct? How? He sent the Holy Spirit, but Christ is not the Holy Spirit. So, how does He remain with us? The Eucharist. That is the only reason to be Christian. The Eucharist, as celebrated by the twelve, Paul, the early church fathers, and every generation since, IS Christ. Our spiritual food. We “commune” withHim. We carry Him within us! Amazing! Catholics, Orthodox and some others know this. We absolutely love Christ. We are so in love with Him that we spend time with Him, in His physical presence, during mass and at Adoration. He refreshes and sustains us.

You are a true brother in Christ, and we salute you. Especially your fervor for the Lord. However, Jesus Christ founded One church. We obey His command, we deny ourselves, we take up our cross daily. We try, hard as we might, to follow. So much of what you “know” about Christ’s one church is misinformation or incomplete. If you truly, to the depth of your soul, knew what Christ’s one church was, you would inquire as to how you might be one with all believers in the world. It is not by making a church that you agree with, it is by repenting and making yourself agree with the Lord.

That is what we have done. Please, keep asking questions, but with a mind that is open to a much more ancient faith. It is much different (yet much the same) as yours, due to this very fact of antiquity.

Now, I have gone on perhaps too long. But even one soul is not too great a price to pay, for our Lord paid a tremendous price for us. We extend the hand of brotherly love to you. All we ask is that you listen and see the reason behind the One church.

Christ’s peace always be with you.
Amen, poguy. You truly have a way with words.
 
You claim to be a bible christian and the Bible says that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. So why don’t you follow the Bible? Why do you dispute what is written in The Word of God?
I don’t dispute what is written in the word,it is traditions of men which I have shown that make that word void.Therefore I cannot follow a church that uses such traditions,yet you accuse me of not following what is written,please!

The Bible is the Holy inspiried written Word of God which I believe to be the King James version.

You keep talking to me about sacreed tradition,well this sacreed tradition should not contradict the Word,period!
 
I don’t dispute what is written in the word,it is traditions of men which I have shown that make that word void.Therefore I cannot follow a church that uses such traditions,yet you accuse me of not following what is written,please!

The Bible is the Holy inspiried written Word of God which I believe to be the King James version.

You keep talking to me about sacreed tradition,well this sacreed tradition should not contradict the Word,period!
During the Time of the Apostles there was no King James Bible and how about those who do not speak English? How would preach the Gospel if someone cannot speak English? You can’t hand them a KJV Bible. You have to give them a Spanish Translation of the Bible.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are the Word of God. They are one.
 
I don’t dispute what is written in the word,it is traditions of men which I have shown that make that word void.Therefore I cannot follow a church that uses such traditions,yet you accuse me of not following what is written,please!

The Bible is the Holy inspiried written Word of God which I believe to be the King James version.

You keep talking to me about sacreed tradition, well this sacreed tradition should not contradict the Word,period!
And where does it conflict, dear friend?

Every argument you have brought forth has been refuted successfully, relying on the Apostolic Tradition, the Sacred Tradition passed by Christ Jesus to His apostles, and by them, to the Bishops, and from them to us.

I believe that you sincerely seek the Truth, N2. I honestly do; so with that, do not let yourself become blind to the Truth that is the guarded by the Church.

We ask this, and you should consider this seriously: how do you know that the Scriptures are the only authority? In considering this question, remember that the Apostle’s themselves stressed their oral teachings as well:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

II Thess. 2:15

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

II Timothy 3:16-17

This does not make a false dichotomy saying that scripture trumps oral teachings. No! Instead, it posits that scripture and oral teachings have the same authority.

Not also how Paul tells Timothy, another early Catholic bishop, that the Scriptures are useful. Never does he say, “sufficient” [as in, “these are all that is needed”]; he merely says they are useful, but he doesn’t say that they are the final word on the subject.

So go to the source, my friend. Not to the New Testament, because the Apostles did not use the New Testament as a teaching tool; like we pointed out in Thessalonians, St. Paul says that his oral teachings are just as good as the letters he wrote, which would some day be included in the New Testament.

Go to the history. Learn of the Early Church Fathers, many of whom knew the Apostles and talked with them. Some of them were pagan converts that, after their conversion, fought against the invasion of pagan doctrine in to their beloved Church.

You will then see that the Catholic Church is the continuation of that ancient Christianity. In fact, you will see that it is one and the same.
 
I don’t dispute what is written in the word,it is traditions of men which I have shown that make that word void.Therefore I cannot follow a church that uses such traditions,yet you accuse me of not following what is written,please!

The Bible is the Holy inspiried written Word of God which I believe to be the King James version.

You keep talking to me about sacreed tradition,well this sacreed tradition should not contradict the Word,period!
Like others have said… How about Christians before the KJV? Or how about a Christian in the year 250AD?.. Just think about it for 5 minutes before you go on to a different question…

SD
 
I don’t dispute what is written in the word,it is traditions of men which I have shown that make that word void.Therefore I cannot follow a church that uses such traditions,yet you accuse me of not following what is written,please!

The Bible is the Holy inspiried written Word of God which I believe to be the King James version.

You keep talking to me about sacreed tradition,well this sacreed tradition should not contradict the Word,period!
This could actually use its own thread. Since KJV-only is a minority position, even among Protestants, I would be interested in why anybody holds that position.

Mind you, I am a BIG fan of the KJV and still have much of it hard-wired into my brain. Sometimes the translators even give a passage in a way that makes a Catholic teaching clearer than the Catholic translations do. I think particularly of the witness that Paul himself “in the person of Christ” forgave the incestuous man and the passage on mortal versus venial sin.

Nevertheless, if you are not using one of the later generations of the KJV, the 1611 edition was translated without the advantage of a heap of ancient manuscript evidence that has come to light since then.

For example, no Scripture scholar – Catholic or Protestant – still believes that the pericope in John 8 of the woman taken in adultery was actually part of the original Gospel. While I know of no translation that does not include it, it is important to know that it crept into the tradition along the way. It teaches a valuable lesson.
 
I don’t dispute what is written in the word,it is traditions of men which I have shown that make that word void.Therefore I cannot follow a church that uses such traditions,yet you accuse me of not following what is written,please!

The Bible is the Holy inspiried written Word of God which I believe to be the King James version.

You keep talking to me about sacreed tradition,well this sacreed tradition should not contradict the Word,period!
OK, you keep dodging this question (I speculate you understand the ramifications of answering it) but here we go again:

Looking at your KJV, please provide your Scriptural support for the canon of the New Testament; which KJV Bible verse tells us:
  • what books belong in the Bible?
  • what criteria is used to make that decision?
  • what process was used to make that decision?
 
I have been luking on this site for some time. I am a cradle Catholic I come here to learn more about the faith and in doing so live more fully in it. I am amazed at this thread, I cannot understand how anyone can take a simple line in scripture and twist it to fit whatever they believe. The more reason to submit to the authority of the church. N2 has yet to answer the question posted about the authority of the church found in Timothy. Thank you for all the insights this forum has provided.
 
And where does it conflict, dear friend?

Every argument you have brought forth has been refuted successfully, relying on the Apostolic Tradition, the Sacred Tradition passed by Christ Jesus to His apostles, and by them, to the Bishops, and from them to us.

I believe that you sincerely seek the Truth, N2. I honestly do; so with that, do not let yourself become blind to the Truth that is the guarded by the Church.

We ask this, and you should consider this seriously: how do you know that the Scriptures are the only authority? In considering this question, remember that the Apostle’s themselves stressed their oral teachings as well:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

II Thess. 2:15

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

II Timothy 3:16-17

This does not make a false dichotomy saying that scripture trumps oral teachings. No! Instead, it posits that scripture and oral teachings have the same authority.

Note also how Paul tells Timothy, another early Catholic bishop, that the Scriptures are useful. Never does he say, “sufficient” [as in, “these are all that is needed”]; he merely says they are useful, but he doesn’t say that they are the final word on the subject.

So go to the source, my friend. Not to the New Testament, because the Apostles did not use the New Testament as a teaching tool; like we pointed out in Thessalonians, St. Paul says that his oral teachings are just as good as the letters he wrote, which would some day be included in the New Testament.

Go to the history. Learn of the Early Church Fathers, many of whom knew the Apostles and talked with them. Some of them were pagan converts that, after their conversion, fought against the invasion of pagan doctrine in to their beloved Church.

You will then see that the Catholic Church is the continuation of that ancient Christianity. In fact, you will see that it is one and the same.
 
Ignatius;3905959:
Not so fast, my friend. You have asked and been given resonable answers to many question.
Now it is your turn to answer, if you can. Though it is clear and apparent that you cannot!

Jesus clearly rejected the kind of division that Protestantism has multiplied into thousands upon thousands of different sects all claiming to have the Holy Spirit as a guide. Jesus founded one Church. He didn’t even leave any writings, he left his teachings in the hands of The Apostles. The fullness of what Jesus taught was passed down through the generations by The Church. Jesus said to the Apostles, who were the leaders of The Church, “he who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me.” Eventually some was written down and became the New Testament. We can be sure of the Truths both written and unwritten in the same way, because it was passed down by The Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

What does the Bible say about this?
Does the Bible say that the Bible is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?
NO! The most that Holy Scripture ever claims for itself is that it is profitable for reproof, for correction and for instruction.

Does the Bible say that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?
You bet.

The Church and Scripture are inseparable. St. Paul of Tarsus says in his letter to the Ephesians that it is through The Church that the manifold wisdom of God is made known.
The Church was founded by Jesus Christ and was sustained by Sacred Tradition for many many years before a word of the New Testament was ever written. If you check into it, you will find that The Church came well before any of the writings of the New Testament.

You claim to be a bible christian and the Bible says that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. So why don’t you follow the Bible? Why do you dispute what is written in The Word of God?

If you would like to learn more about the Truths of Jesus Christ and His Church, contact your local parish today. Or you can visit http://www.catholicscomehome.org/epic/epic120.phtml or http://www.chnetwork.org/

I don’t dispute what is written in the word,
But Sola Scriptura the false, man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura is that you follow is not in the Bible!

Jesus clearly rejected the kind of division that Protestantism has multiplied into thousands upon thousands of different sects all claiming to have the Holy Spirit as a guide to their thousands of different interpretations of Scripture.

Jesus founded one Church. Jesus didn’t leave any writings, He didn’t even tell anyone to write anything down. He left his teachings in the hands of The Apostles. The fullness of what Jesus taught was passed down through the generations by The Church. Jesus said to the Apostles, who were the leaders of The Church, “he who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me.” Eventually some was written down and became the New Testament. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ many many years before a word of the New Testament was ever written. We can be sure of the Truths both written and unwritten in the same way, because it was passed down by The Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Again, if you check into it, you will find that The Church came well before any of the writings of the New Testament.

By the way, you still are ducking the issue and have not addressed the issues and questions I raised above.
Please answer these questions!
  1. Does the Bible say that the Bible is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth or does it say that Scripture is profitable for reproof, for correction and for instruction.?
  2. Does the Bible say that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and that it is through The Church that the manifold wisdom of God is made known?
If you would like to learn more about the Truths of Jesus Christ and His Church, contact your local parish today. Or you can visit http://www.catholicscomehome.org/epic/epic120.phtml and
http://www.chnetwork.org/
 
n2, there are hardly any “popes word” on how scripture is to be interpreted. You are functioning under a false premise here. In your case, you appear to be regurgitating a great deal of anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Everyone who is born under the consequence of original sin is in danger of going to hell. Jesus provided for a way out, through HIs sacrifice on the cross. He entrusted the preaching and teaching of His gospel to HIs apostles, and they to their successors. Those who are not in union with the Apostolic successors are lacking in elements of the teaching of Jesus. All who are lacking have a more difficult time escaping the fires of hell, since only the Truth will provide escape, and they are missing parts of it.
It is possible, alternatively, to suggest that as we are all children of God - every single human being - and we are beloved of Him, no one individual or group of individuals has a greater claim on God’s grace, on His overwhelming love for His children which will keep them within His blessed comfort for all eternity. Except those of course who are innately evil, and have deliberately separated themselves from his omni-beneficence.

The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
 
It is possible, alternatively, to suggest that as we are all children of God - every single human being - and we are beloved of Him, no one individual or group of individuals has a greater claim on God’s grace, on His overwhelming love for His children which will keep them within His blessed comfort for all eternity. Except those of course who are innately evil, and have deliberately separated themselves from his omni-beneficence.

For the Lord Our God is One God.
Except that God distributes His Graces through the Church, the Church that so many have walked away from.

Yes, God can give His Graces where He pleases, but that is up to Him. But He did promise to distribute them through His Church normally.
 
Except that God distributes His Graces through the Church, the Church that so many have walked away from.

Yes, God can give His Graces where He pleases, but that is up to Him. But He did promise to distribute them through His Church normally.
I think you ran out of steam here: beginning strongly, but then recognising there may be some conditionalities. It always helps to read this Vatican II document because it is surprising:

In the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, paragraph 16, the Vatican II Council Fathers wrote: "Those who have not yet received the gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.

There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Romans 9:4-5): In view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Romans 11:28-29).

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

"Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:4).

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through dictates of their conscience—those too, may achieve eternal salvation.

“Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.”

So the Fathers of the Council do not exclude anyone acting in good faith from the possibility of salvation.

In the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, paragraph 16, the Vatican II Council Fathers wrote: "Those who have not yet received the gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.

There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Romans 9:4-5): In view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Romans 11:28-29).

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

"Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:4).

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through dictates of their conscience—those too, may achieve eternal salvation.

“Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.”

So the Fathers of the Council do not exclude anyone acting in good faith from the possibility of salvation.

In Christ

 
I think you ran out of steam here: beginning strongly, but then recognising there may be some conditionalities. It always helps to read this Vatican II document because it is surprising:
I don’t think I ran out of steam. Jesus set up a Church, a Sacramental System, and then gave the good thief absolution and Salvation right there from the Cross.

I prefer not to limit God, because he is rather All-Powerful and what-not.
 
I agree with NotWorthy on this one.

Catholic sacraments are authentic - they are the way to be guaranteed grace. If someone received the Sacrament of Reconciliation and possessed a contrite heart, then they have surely been brought back in to God’s loving grace; they are guaranteed it.

Just as if a person receives the most Holy Eucharist and is in a state of grace, then they too have brought to completion this grace and communion with the Church.

All things outside of these Sacraments that are possessed by the Church do not guarantee the conferral of grace to the recipient. Much like our Lutheran brothers and sisters in their church, it is agreed by the Catholic Church that they do not possess the Real Presence.

Yet we do believe that they do honestly seek God, and have yet to receive the truth of the Catholic Church (that, when one is exposed to properly, is impossible to deny as the truth). Only then, through pure desire to know the Lord, can we say that they may have received grace.

Again, no guarantees for them.
 
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