SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[Lisdogan]

I’ve heard it said that the problem with Protestantism isn’t that they don’t have a pope; the problem with Protetsantism is that everyone is his own pope.

One might suggest that this statement is uninformed and entirely unhelpful, characteristic of the absence of basic respect where it is merited.

 

[Lisdogan]

• He instituted the priesthood through the Last Supper, teaching them to repeat His actions in the Eucharist. According to John 6, in the Eucharist, we receive His Graces…
• He gave the Apostles the Authority to Forgive and Retain Sins (surely, you would agree that this is a Grace).
• Peter taught at Pentecost about the Graces received in Baptism - although this Grace can be received through the actions of someone other than the priest/bishop, the Church does teach the form and matter of this means of Grace.
• James teaches of the Annointing of the Sick.

So, although you are correct that God is not limited to these (and other) Promises of His Grace, the Church does have Faith that God distributes His Graces through these channels just as He promised.

But it is clear, is it not, that the grace of God may be channelled as He will is, and that that is not necessarily through CC? This is clear from your argument.

 

[NotWorthy]

But it is clear, is it not, that the grace of God may be channelled as He will is, and that that is not necessarily through CC? This is clear from your argument.

What is clear is that God has promised certain channels in which we KNOW He will distribute His Graces. We can’t be certain, for instance, that if I confess my sins to God that they are forgiven by Him. But I know that if I sincerely confess my sins to a priest, when the priest absolves my sins, then God absolves my sins.

But, yes, God is not limited to this means, although He hasn’t promised any other means than this.

 

[JLongoria]

God distributes His grace as He wills it: it is not for us to determine how He does that, or why, although we do try to discern his will. He does not distribute his grace through CC or any other Christian Church, or any Hindu, Moslem or Daoist organisation, which are of man. He distributes His grace to mankind, his Beloved.

Can you give me a reference for ‘He did promise to distribute them…’?

Well, we don’t technically need a reference. We have the authentic apostolic paradosis.

Yet, since you asked: have you read the Bible? You know, all those parts where Christ gives His disciples authority to do things in His name?

Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me

St. Luke 10:16

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.

St. John 14:12-14

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

St. Matthew 28:19-20

Baptism is a sacrament instituted by Christ; it is required of all, and it is a sure way of conferring the saving grace of God upon any individual, as has been understood since the early Church. Such is the power of things done in the name of the Lord according to His will.

“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

St. Matthew 16:19

Binding and loosing is authority given to a man, a man by the name of Peter. As Christ saw fit, He gave Peter - and in Matthew 18:18, the disciples that would obey teachings - the power to bind and loose sins. This is the institution of the sacrament of confession, something that is guaranteed to re-establish the grace of God upon an individual (as God promises forgiveness to those who seek Him with a contrite heart).

So, Christ promises us that if we ask Him things in His name, they will be done. He also commanded the Apostles to teach what they had been told to observe.

The Church lays unique claim to these sacraments because our bishops have been charged to safeguard the traditions of Christianity that were instituted by the Apostles.

And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well

II Timothy 2:2

When they are conferred by the Church upon a certain individual, they are guaranteed to supply the grace of God. That is why God gave us the Church to begin with, and entrusted it to men who would be led by the Holy Spirit until His glorious return.

 

[guanophore]

Welcome to CAF, foundation.

And we are to be with Him. It is he who decides, not the Church, nor the Buddhist Sangha Mehta.

Are you under some misapprehension that the Catholic Church purports to decide whi is with Christ?

As we have noted in the doctrine posted above, those who may be with God may never have heard His name. It is difficult to understand, but those who know of God and turn away, are bound for hell, be they moral non-Christians or not. It logically appears that a Hindu who is not knowledgeable about Creator God, has a better chance of being with God always, than a moral non-Christian.

You sure won’t get any arguement from me on that point!
"guanophore:

This is definitely and “alternative” gospel. God is loving, and desires our fellowship for eternity. However, in His love He is just, and will not be in the presence of sin. Those who prefer sin over Him will not be in “blessed comfort for all eternity”.

Yes, my take is alternative, or else we have two propositions that are contradictory. You propose we are all bound for hell because we are born under the curse of original sin.

Yes, this is the Apostolic Teaching.

We can be saved by Christ, but only if we are in union with the apostolic succession (ie CC), in which case we take our chances by being something else, presumaby Christian to start with.

Perhaps you are thinking of something another poster wrote. I made no claim that all of the saved are in union with the Apostolic succession. However, I do agree that failure to be in unity with the Church that Jesus founded does very much affect the chances.

I have suggested that the CC does not actually enter here any more than the Buddhist Sangha Mehta. We - all 6 billion human beings here now - are all beloved of the Creator. We all have access to his eternal comfort - except those who are by choice innately evil (define). It is God who decides, not an institution surely.

I agree that God decides. I am not sure how you got the error that the Catholic Church decides.

 

[guanophore]

God distributes His grace as He wills it: it is not for us to determine how He does that, or why,

This is certainly true. However, it is possible for us to know what He has revealed about this.

although we do try to discern his will. He does not distribute his grace through CC or any other Christian Church, or any Hindu, Moslem or Daoist organisation, which are of man.

There are two errors here that I can see. One is, why do you think Jesus would lie, saying He would distribute Grace through the Church, then not do it? The other is that the Church is “man made” which is not true. The Church is founded by Jesus, and built by the Holy Spirit. It is “of God.”

He distributes His grace to mankind, his Beloved.

Indeed He does, the fullest expression of this on earth being His Holy Bride, the Church

Can you give me a reference for ‘He did promise to distribute them…’?

Do you think that the gates of hell being unable to prevail against the Church comes from any other source than God’s grace?

 

[guanophore]

One might suggest that this statement is uninformed and entirely unhelpful, characteristic of the absence of basic respect where it is merited.

I know what you mean, but it is also true that many “bible christians” believe that they are being led by the HS into “all truth”, and that they understand and interpret the Bible as it was intended to be by God.

The reference to the “pope” is a reference to infallibility. Many “bible christians” believe that their interpretation is the “right” one, or even that they are not interpreting at all, and “it means what it says”, which, being interpreted, is “it means what I think it says”. To that extent, such an individual makes himself the infallible standard.

 

[Lisdogan]

What is clear is that God has promised certain channels in which we KNOW He will distribute His Graces. We can’t be certain, for instance, that if I confess my sins to God that they are forgiven by Him. But I know that if I sincerely confess my sins to a priest, when the priest absolves my sins, then God absolves my sins.

But, yes, God is not limited to this means, although He hasn’t promised any other means than this.

I understand. But do we have a Scriptural reference for this? Or am I just being stupid?

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

Well, we don’t technically need

 

[n2thelight]

NotWorthy

What is clear is that God has promised certain channels in which we KNOW He will distribute His Graces. We can’t be certain, for instance, that if I confess my sins to God that they are forgiven by Him. But I know that if I sincerely confess my sins to a priest, when the priest absolves my sins, then God absolves my sins.

For you to make this statement,is an insult to God!What do you mean we can’t be certain,what do you think Jesus died for?I need NO man to absolve my sins,and nor can he.Jesus death made it possible for me to come straight to my Father.

Mark 15:37 “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.”

Mark 15:38 “And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

This was the sacrifice hour, the ninth hour of the day when the chief priest would go into the holy of holies and make sacrifice for the sins of the people. It was a forbidden place for the people to enter and look upon, and now with this veil of the Temple rent in two, the people now had access to look into and approach the very throne of God. This was the daily oblation or sacrifice that offered a lamb, and now here the Lamb of God was offered for one and all times for all those that by faith would believe on Christ, and repent to the Father in “Jesus name”. Jesus name became our credentials to approach the throne of God in repentance, and the blood of Christ made it all possible. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for one and all times.

Do you know what was meant by the term “the veil was rent in twain”? The Holy of holies was covered by the law, and it stated that one time each year, one individual, the High Priest, could penetrate the holy of Holies. That means that he could go into the presence of God Himself. That veil was very think and it was not a small thing that this curtain was rent in two from the top to the bottom. This meant that it was a divine supplication, letting us know that it was God that did it.

Now in Christ even you and I can go in and approach the throne of God. Even though you are a sinner, God loved you enough that He paid the price that allows that barrier to be removed. It was an awesome price that Christ paid, and that is why when you say, salvation is free, it is only free because the price has already been paid. Now you can come to the Father at any time and say, Father, I love you. That pleases Him, and with His love for you, come His blessings for you. You now have the right to say directly to Him, Help me Lord, I am a poor sinner." and He will.

 

[n2thelight]

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without the Bible,relying solely on sacred tradition?

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without sacred tradition,relying solely on the Bible?

 

[Gamera]

For you to make this statement,is an insult to God!What do you mean we can’t be certain,what do you think Jesus died for?I need NO man to absolve my sins,and nor can he.Jesus death made it possible for me to come straight to my Father.

“And when he said this, he breathed on them, and said t othem, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven ; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained,’” John 20:21.

A person can be forgiven without sacramental confession IF he repents with perfect contrition. But only God knows for sure whether our contrition is perfect or imperfect. If I repent without sacramental confession, I cannot be sure that my contrition was perfect. But sacramental confession requires only imperfect contrition. That isn’t “an insult to God,” on the contrary, it would be insulting to God for me to usurp His position as my judge.

Mark 15:37 “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.”

Mark 15:38 “And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

This was the sacrifice hour, the ninth hour of the day when the chief priest would go into the holy of holies and make sacrifice for the sins of the people. It was a forbidden place for the people to enter and look upon, and now with this veil of the Temple rent in two, the people now had access to look into and approach the very throne of God. This was the daily oblation or sacrifice that offered a lamb, and now here the Lamb of God was offered for one and all times for all those that by faith would believe on Christ, and repent to the Father in “Jesus name”. Jesus name became our credentials to approach the throne of God in repentance, and the blood of Christ made it all possible. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for one and all times.

Do you know what was meant by the term “the veil was rent in twain”? The Holy of holies was covered by the law, and it stated that one time each year, one individual, the High Priest, could penetrate the holy of Holies. That means that he could go into the presence of God Himself. That veil was very think and it was not a small thing that this curtain was rent in two from the top to the bottom. This meant that it was a divine supplication, letting us know that it was God that did it.

Amen. That has nothing to do with our topic, but amen.

Now in Christ even you and I can go in and approach the throne of God. Even though you are a sinner, God loved you enough that He paid the price that allows that barrier to be removed. It was an awesome price that Christ paid, and that is why when you say, salvation is free, it is only free because the price has already been paid.

Amen. But you left out a bunch of stuff. HOW do we gain access to the payment Christ made for us? Do we follow the procedure He set up by confessing our sins to His priests (John 20:21)? Or do we just invent our own method?

Now you can come to the Father at any time and say, Father, I love you. That pleases Him, and with His love for you, come His blessings for you. You now have the right to say directly to Him, Help me Lord, I am a poor sinner." and He will.

That prayer isn’t in my Bible. Didn’t you say we needed only the Bible? What chapter and verse contain that prayer?

Did you know that every Catholic says an Act of Contrition during sacramental confession? A typical Act of Contrition is, “Lord, I am most heartily sorry for my sins because they have offended you, and I ask forgiveness in Jesus’ name.” We cannot make a sacramental confession unless we make an Act of Contrition, nor will a priest grant absolution without it. Does that satisfy you? Or do we need to use the phrasing you wrote in the quote above? By what authority do you tell us how to pray?

 

[Gamera]

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without the Bible,relying solely on sacred tradition?

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without sacred tradition,relying solely on the Bible?

“Relying solely on” anything other than Jesus? I’m surprised you ask. Salvation comes only from Jesus’ shed blood. Not from the Bible, not from Tradition, not from a Church. Only from Jesus.

Of course, God gave us many things to help us draw closer to Him. God gave us the Bible and Apostolic Tradition so that we would know His will. God gave us the Church to be His voice here on earth, to administer His sacraments and to teach us His word. All of those things make it easier to draw closer to God. But what saves us is grace.

Catholics don’t believe we can earn our way to heaven by reading the Bible or by going to church (good as those activities are). Catholics don’t believe we can earn our way to heaven at all. We believe only God’s grace gets us into heaven, grace which can be ours because He shed his blood for us on the cross.

 

[SD_Catholic]

For you to make this statement,is an insult to God!What do you mean we can’t be certain,what do you think Jesus died for?I need NO man to absolve my sins,and nor can he.Jesus death made it possible for me to come straight to my Father.

QUOTE]

No man can forgive your sins???.. cmon you know this goes directly against what the Bible says… The Apostles surley could and we are even told that we can forgive others of certain sins

 

[Linda_Marie]

I cannot find a book - except the Bible, but it does not categorise or set out thematically the teachings, nature, mission so we can grab them - and if you or anyone has a reference, I would be pleased to have it.

Try the Catechism. This one is searchable so if you have a particular doctrine or question, it is easier to look it up. But you can purchase the book yourself and just start at the beginning. It is heavily cross-referenced with the Bible.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without the Bible,relying solely on sacred tradition?

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without sacred tradition,relying solely on the Bible?

Absolutely:thumbsup: … otherwise everyone that lived before the Bible would be doomed… you know God didn’t create it on the 6th day.

Possible???.. hmmmm absolutely:thumbsup: … anything is possible with God, but that sure would be putting him to the test… and that isn’t recommended.

SD

 

[Linda_Marie]

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without the Bible,relying solely on sacred tradition?

Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without sacred tradition,relying solely on the Bible?

Question 1 - YES. The Bible is a product of Sacred Tradition. The Early Christians did not have it, only a collection of writings, many of which were rejected by the Church when it definitively decided which books were Inspired and which were not.

Question 2 - MAYBE, but without Sacred Tradition to guide you, it is very possible to misunderstand the teachings of Christ and go astray, especially if you rely upon translations of the original texts.

 

[Lisdogan]

Welcome to CAF, foundation.

 

[Lisdogan]

There are two errors here that I can see. One is, why do you think Jesus would lie, saying He would distribute Grace through the Church, then not do it? The other is that the Church is “man made” which is not true. The Church is founded by Jesus, and built by the Holy Spirit. It is “of God.”

 

[n2thelight]

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

Main Entry: me·di·a·trix
Pronunciation: -ˈā-triks\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
: a woman who is a mediator

Main Entry: 1me·di·ate
Pronunciation: \ˈmē-dē-ət\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin mediatus intermediate, from past participle of mediare
Date: 15th century
1: occupying a middle position
2 a: acting through an intervening agency b: exhibiting indirect causation, connection, or relation

" If we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, “There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son’s "co-mediatrix.“2 And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.”

John MacArthur