SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[NotWorthy]

My point to this thread is simple,and that is,if it is not written,I cannot fully trust it,no matter how sacred one tells me the tradition is.

Word of mouth won’t get it,for if it is not written how can I be sure its right.Answer for me is that I can’t.

So you are denying that Jesus gave His Church any authority what-so-ever? Where is that in Scripture?

 

[NotWorthy]

“Jesus was the living Word while He lived on earth in the flesh, He spoke the Words that the Father gave the Prophets, and even as He did what He has done, He reminded those around that “It is written”. Jesus combined the New Testament with the Old, for without both you simply cannot understand the entire plan of God.”

The Holy Spirit simply enabled them to remember that which was said in order that they could write it.No traditions

But Jesus said that the Holy Spirit “will guide you to all Truth”, not “make you remember what I said…”.

 

[onenow1]

Hi, n2tothelight

What does non-denominational mean ? That you follow any whim that you believe to to be true, as some well intentioned but mis- lead Pastors. etc. teach ? And the reliance of your own interpretation of scripture, that the catholic church cannonized !

Peace, OneNow1

 

[ryanoneil]

There are no traditions of the Aposles,but there is the written Word

I don’t know any believers who discount the written word, but plenty who discount the teaching of the Apostles (which is The Word of God being transferred orally).

For someone to argue that the word of God is limited to a book (subject to thousands of different interpretations) ignores Scripture and is a radical theory about how God spreads His word.

I understand letters were circulated early on, but it took 400 years to finally compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the Apostles succesors, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. (Acts 2:41-42)

There is no mention of the written word there. Jesus didn’t command the Apostles to write anything, but He did command them to preach. Don’t get me wrong, I thank God for the Bible and truely believe it is the word of God, but it is not the first and only means the word is transferred.

Peace

 

[JLongoria]

These are not quotes they are scriptures from the KJV

The purpose of which was to show the importance of that which is written verses the traditions of men.

What have I ignored? These verses play a part of my last two post’s

There are no traditions of the Aposles,but there is the written Word

Good Lord, grant me patience…

“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

Here in Thessalonians, these people are being told to separate themselves from brethren that don’t follow the tradition that the Apostles handed to them.

It’s reaffirming Apostolic tradition! It’s telling people to separate from those that don’t adhere to these traditions.

Which is why in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, St. Paul writes,
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

Don’t ignore the rest of the letter, and indeed the rest of the Bible, just to cling to your incorrect beliefs.

Christ is not a book, and He did not give man a book. He said that His coming was foretold in the Scriptures, but He never once said that the entirety of Christian faith would be based on a book.

Which is why the Apostles give strength to “letter” and “word of mouth”.

“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us”.

2 Timothy 1:13-14

“You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

2 Timothy 2:1-2

If you choose to ignore those texts, then shame on you. The Bible is assuredly the written word of God; yet here, Apostles do say that their teachings are also oral, not just written down.

Can’t get any more clearer than that, my friend.

Yes, there are traditions of men, and Christ and His Apostles go to great lengths to confront it; yet, as implied by the writings of the Apostles, there is also a good tradition, an inspired tradition which must be adhered to (which is why St. Paul orders them to separate from those who don’t follow it).

 

[justasking4]

But Jesus said that the Holy Spirit “will guide you to all Truth”, not “make you remember what I said…”.

This was not addressed to the “church” but to His disciples. It is in the context of what Jesus said and taught that they would be reminded of.

 

[NotWorthy]

This was not addressed to the “church” but to His disciples. It is in the context of what Jesus said and taught that they would be reminded of.

Jesus did not teach this to the crowds. He taught it to the Apostles and Disciples, the first leaders of the Church. Jesus taught on two levels:

1. Personal Salvation
2. The teachers of His new Church.

What Jesus said specifically to the Apostles cannot be misconstrued to include all the faithful - i.e. binding and loosing, forgiving and retaining sins, etc.

 

[mercygate]

Jesus did not teach this to the crowds. He taught it to the Apostles and Disciples, the first leaders of the Church. Jesus taught on two levels:

1. Personal Salvation
2. The teachers of His new Church.

What Jesus said specifically to the Apostles cannot be misconstrued to include all the faithful - i.e. binding and loosing, forgiving and retaining sins, etc.

Jesus was not speaking to “the disciples.” Only the Eleven were n the room at the time. Your case is stronger than you have stated it.

 

[cfrancis]

There are no traditions of the Aposles,but there is the written Word

Has n2thelight EVER shown us, from Scripture which books belong in the Bible?

Seems this question was posed several times earlier in the thread without n2thelight providing an answer.

 

[Gamera]

Can you give some examples of sacred traditions

1. The authorship of Mark’s Gospel. Nowhere does the text identify its author. We know Mark wrote it because Sacred Tradition tells us he did.
2. The Canon of Scripture (the list of which books belong to the Bible). The Bible itself lacks any table of contents – nowhere does it tell us which books to include. We know which books constitute the Bible from Sacred Tradition.
3. The fact that John the Evangelist was the same John who wrote the Revelation of John (nowhere does the text state this).

 

[Gamera]

But Jesus said that the Holy Spirit “will guide you to all Truth”, not “make you remember what I said…”.

Both were said by Jesus in the same discourse to the Apostles. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would “bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you,” (John 14:26), and then later in the same address He said the Holy Spirit would guide them in all truth (John 16:12). So yes, Jesus did say the Holy Spirit would make the Apostles remember what He said (John 14:26).

 

[justasking4]

Jesus was not speaking to “the disciples.” Only the Eleven were n the room at the time. Your case is stronger than you have stated it.

So we agree that this reference to rememberance is only to those in the room at the time?

 

[NotWorthy]

So we agree that this reference to rememberance is only to those in the room at the time?

I would say it was addressed to those in the room, and their successors.

Take, for example, His command in Matthew to go out to all the nations, teaching them all He has commanded them… We know that the Apostles didn’t make it to all the nations. Hence, they would have HAD to have appointed people to succeed them. This is further evidenced in the filling of Judas’ position. What does Jesus say? Let another take his place (bishopric, episcopate, etc.). This is an office. After one dies, the office remains.

Remember, Jesus is teaching them how to build His Church. His Church will still need guidance after the Apostles death. So when Jesus teaches the Apostles, He is also teaching their successors.

 

[n2thelight]

So you are denying that Jesus gave His Church any authority what-so-ever? Where is that in Scripture?

What is the Church?Is it not the many membered body of believers?What makes Catholics think that they have a monopoly on it(the Church)?

Each member has certain gifts which are important to the body as a whole

cfrancis

Has n2thelight EVER shown us, from Scripture which books belong in the Bible?

Seems this question was posed several times earlier in the thread without n2thelight providing an answer.

Let me put it to ya this way,I stand by the KJV ,so whatever books are included in there are the ones God intended to be

JLongoria

Good Lord, grant me patience…

“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

Here in Thessalonians, these people are being told to separate themselves from brethren that don’t follow the tradition that the Apostles handed to them.

It’s reaffirming Apostolic tradition! It’s telling people to separate from those that don’t adhere to these traditions.

Which is why in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, St. Paul writes,
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
Don’t ignore the rest of the letter, and indeed the rest of the Bible, just to cling to your incorrect beliefs.

Christ is not a book, and He did not give man a book. He said that His coming was foretold in the Scriptures, but He never once said that the entirety of Christian faith would be based on a book.

Which is why the Apostles give strength to “letter” and “word of mouth”.

“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us”.

2 Timothy 1:13-14

“You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

2 Timothy 2:1-2
If you choose to ignore those texts, then shame on you. The Bible is assuredly the written word of God; yet here, Apostles do say that their teachings are also oral, not just written down.

Can’t get any more clearer than that, my friend.

Yes, there are traditions of men, and Christ and His Apostles go to great lengths to confront it; yet, as implied by the writings of the Apostles, there is also a good tradition, an inspired tradition which must be adhered to (which is why St. Paul orders them to separate from those who don’t follow it).

Actually its from people who walk disorderly,the disciples were there with them setting the example,and since I don’t believe in aposolic sucessiion, I believe that the examples are now written,for in the next verse we read

II Thessalonians 3:7 “For yourselves know how ye ought to follow [imitate] us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;”

To follow them now is to follow the written Word,not the Pope

As for II Thessalonians 2:15,the subject of the chapter is the return of Christ as for the verse itself this is simply what was taught to them by the aposles which again is now in the Word

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit only dwells within the Catholic Church?

 

[n2thelight]

Hi, n2tothelight

What does non-denominational mean ? That you follow any whim that you believe to to be true, as some well intentioned but mis- lead Pastors. etc. teach ? And the reliance of your own interpretation of scripture, that the catholic church cannonized !

Peace, OneNow1

I am a Christian,which means Christ Man,I support anyone who teaches the truth as found in the written Word which is the Holy Bible

Catholic teachings do not align with the Bible

 

[NotWorthy]

What is the Church?Is it not the many membered body of believers?What makes Catholics think that they have a monopoly on it(the Church)?

Because Jesus Christ built a Church - not churches with varying ideologies. I’m following Scripture when I make this claim.

Let’s take one example - one that you and I have been over before and you’ve yet to answer.

John 20:20-22. Did Jesus give the authority to forgive and retain people’s sins to everyone? Or only to a group that has the responsibility to exercise this authority with divine guidance?

Each member has certain gifts which are important to the body as a whole

I agree with this statement, but find it totally irrelevant to your point. The Catholic Church teaches this very same doctrine that the Holy Spirit blesses us all with many varying gifts that contribute to the whole.

 

[Thing]

Let me put it to ya this way,I stand by the KJV ,so whatever books are included in there are the ones God intended to be

Which KJV do you stand by?

The deutero writings are not included in the NKJV.
The deutero writings were included in the 1611 KJV but WERE removed to reduce printing costs?! wiki- “The standardisation of the text of the Authorized Version after 1769 together with the technological development of Stereotype printing made it possible to produce Bibles in large print-runs at very low unit prices. For commercial publishers, editions of the Authorized Version without the Apocrypha reduced the cost.”
So what did God intend?

 

[onenow1]

I am a Christian,which means Christ Man,I support anyone who teaches the truth as found in the written Word which is the Holy Bible

Catholic teachings do not align with the Bible

Quote=OneNow1: So you say ? Common sense says something different n2thelight.

Some people try very hard to complicate the Word of GOD, but it is in reality very simple. Jesus Christ founded one Church in Matthew 16:18, as pointed out many times in these forums. Today, there are numerous churches which call themselves “Christian”, and all teach something different from one another.
Our common sense and human reasoning should tell us, “How can this be, since Jesus Christ taught one truth?” Consequently, common sense should be telling us that there can be only one Christian Church which teaches all truth. By the simple process of elimination, we can determine which is the true church. It’s out there have you really searched for truth without bias and misinformation. In essence n2thelight you better be abslutely certain what you are professing is absolute truth, not what you believe to be true.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[ryanoneil]

Let me put it to ya this way,I stand by the KJV ,so whatever books are included in there are the ones God intended to be

the disciples were there with them setting the example,and since I don’t believe in aposolic sucessiion, I believe that the examples are now written

Examples of Apostolic succession can be found in the KJV.
I think we can agree Judas was an Apostle.

Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. . .

In Judas absence the authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is filled.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

And there are more examples. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

**1 Tim. 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. **

An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. At end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry
.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

This is just an sample of all the Scripture has to say about Apostolic succession. Hope that helps.

Peace

 

[cfrancis]

N2thelight, when asked to show, from Scripture, which books belong in the Bible, you responded:

Let me put it to ya this way,I stand by the KJV ,so whatever books are included in there are the ones God intended to be

I hope you recognize the need for logical consistency in your arguments.

You have stated “Catholic beliefs do not align with the Bible,” revealing your premise to be, “a doctrine must have Scriptural support.”

Fair enough.

Now, please apply your premise to your own belief: please, show us in Scripture where, for example, the Gospel of Matthew is:

1. written by Matthew.
2. deemed Scripture, that is, inspired by God.
3. to be included in the Bible.

Thank you.