SPLIT: What is your opinion of the Quran and other religious books?

[Jason1776]

The Catholic Church is the one true Church and it was the Catholic Church that gave us the Bible, therefore I hold no other religious book of any other faith in any regard.

 

[schaick]

I have no respect for the Quaran. Islam must be eradicated from the earth because to NOT practice it as written is to not be a faithful muslim…which means one isnt into subjugating the infidels. Sure there could be Muslims like christians and catholics who approach it according to how they wanna view it and be peaceful but I think they are few. My opinion is the ones we see in the stores, on the street, etc who practice their religion are sleepers just waiting for the signal to kill. The only good muslim is a non practicing one

There’s over 1.5 billion Muslims now. (adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html) That’s a lot to slaughter. I say this because devout Muslims not going to give up their faith and convert to Christianity. Think I’ve read here how devout Catholics will rather die than renounce their faith. I expect Muslims will feel no less. If “Islam must be eradicated from the earth,” then you’re going to have to get rid of the Muslims. I suspect Catholic theology will not support this. But please correct me if I’m wrong.

LOL!! The poster didn’t say eradicate Muslims from the world but Islam.

Think of Islam as an ideology like communism but with an allah attached to it.

As a cult it is set out to control every aspect of your life.

We must show Muslims Christ.

 

[sedonaman]

…
To the best of my understanding, I do not find the Quran to be intrinsically any more violent or oppressive than the Old and New Testaments which I accept as Scripture, being Catholic. I think it is probable therefore, that adherence to the Quran is compatible with a mild and passive religion that does not impose itself violently on other people, just as the distinctively Christian Scriptures which I accept. It all depends on interpretation.

americanthinker.com/bible-koran-political-violence.jpg
and
americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_political_violence_of_the.html

 

[mark_avery]

In all sincerity our Lord came, to as i`m sure you know,divide.So such a way to us is extremely upsetting but in line with the OT, surly not the work of Jesu but none the less exactly the way it has been said or written it will go.

Christian`s perpetrating in retaliation whether with words or actions,speak not from his decrees i would submit.

God bless them and their way,for i would surly prefer to die and unite with my true kin than muse upon such rot that`s happening in this womb of bumptious ways and headline news of catastrophes.

Blessings!

 

[AveChriste11]

Don’t you think there is an Islam in it self? A scolar might say something nice but often he is putting a humanistic view down on the text, which the text really doesn’t have.

Wafa Sultan, a famous former Muslim and Syrian doctor, said : Islam is exactly what Muhammad did and said.
I think that rings true. The real authorities in Islam are not the scolars, but the Quran, the Hadith and Sunna are the authority. And those show quite an unpleasant picture of Muhammad who is also called the perfect example for all Muslims.

I have studied the Quran and Hadith to some extent. And whereas you are right there are some nice and poetic things in it - by the way, I admire the Arabic language - its also statistically speaking a much more violent book than other religious books, compared to its length. I heard a talk about that by a Persian scolar who had actually made a serious comparative study on the occurence of violent words in different revelations.
When reading in the Quran a few weeks back I was also struck by the negativity, the warnings, and harshness. There seems to be an underlying threat all the time whereas Christ came and presented Himself as the great doctor and therapist who ate with publicans and sinners and lifted the sinners up into a feeling of self respect and repentance from sin, not through punishment or menacing them, but through love, prophesy and healing.

I’m not sure what you mean by an “Islam” in itself, when all you have are sheikhs and mullahs to teach the people what that is. They don’t appear to hold to a similar oral tradition the way the Jews or the Church does. In this regard, they can be compared to Protestants…

I’d like to think that the “underlying threat” may have been attributable to their lives in the desert during the 7th century. The Arabs as a people already had very barbaric practices, and it’s possible that whatever demonic presence which revealed the Qur’an, used their own psychological states against them. On the same token, Islam made them more civilized. Their religion united them as a people, to the point where they can now speak with a unified voice on different issues.

I think it’s interesting though, that many things the Qur’an claims Christians to have gone astray in… are not accurate representations of Orthodox Catholic belief. A lot of things it says about the Trinity, and the Theotokos… even we would also agree were false.

 

[CathModerate]

Im not paranoid, I just dont forget the past.

 

[JHow]

Since the KKK claimed to be Christian, are you saying that Christianity is to blame for the KKK and Southern attitudes towards Blacks?

In the American south, most people, black and white are Christian, and the largest denomination(s) for both groups are Baptist. They mostly share the same religion. The idealogical sources for southern racism lie elsewhere.

My point was not, however, to identify the source of muslim behavior, but to point out that the arguments about “small groups of violent people” and “peaceful majorities” are usually half-truths. It is a truism that only a small group, in any cause, are violent (kkk, terrorists, orangemen, IRA). But you are ignoring reality if you insist that the terrorists (or kkk, etc.) didn’t draw on the support and sympathy of a larger body of opinion behind them. You can debate on the relative proportions of this feeling in the population, but in both cases it is clearly not trivial.

Perhaps one example will serve: I was alarmed when mobs of muslims danced in the streets of arab countries on 9 / 11. Forgive me, if I am not calmed by the assurances of my “betters” (there is a good dose of moral posturing in much of this) that all is well and I have nothing to worry about.

To paraphrase an old expression, when you put your head in the sand, another part of your anatomy is exposed.

 

[meltzerboy]

You really should read the Quran, with the understanding that the early verses are the more peaceful ones and the later are violent. The Quran is not written in chronological order but compiled by length of verse.

There is this very handy verse to explain the contradictions between the early peaceful and later violent:
002.106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Muslims are allowed to fudge the truth if it furthers Islam. Their ultimate goal is to have the entire world be muslim with just a few suppressed non-muslims to pay the special tax.

kkk? The Gospel and Christ never condoned what they did. The Quran does condone evil and violence against non-muslims.

How do you tell a moderate muslim from a violent one? We have seen peaceful muslim turn on a dime to violence.

Here are some more violent verses:
4.74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

Don’t be a lazy believer!!
4.95 Not equal are those believers who sit and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit. Unto all Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit by a special reward,-

5.51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

There is not just violence against the non-muslim but the diagreeing wife:
4.34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds,** beat them**; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great.

Violence against child -Can be used to say it is ok to have sexual intercourse with a prebuscent girl:
65.4 Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses: for those who carry, their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Here’s a problem-
We understand the Old Testamemnt to be a history of man. The Old Testament shows us the immorality of man and why we need Jesus. The Muslims say the Quran is supposed to be for all man for all time. If you place it into context of time it is no longer the guide book for all people for all time.

You say you’ve read and studied the Quran, and you also say that Muslims want almost all people to become Muslim. According to several Muslims I know, that is simply not true since, as I’ve noted, Islam respects other religions. Moreover, don’t some forms of Christianity (perhaps Protestantism more than Catholicism in the modern era) want everyone to become Christian as well? You might argue that it is not by violent or deceptive means, and the goal is compassion and salvation of one’s soul. I agree about the goal, but history proves the means to have been rather violent and deceptive at times. But that’s a topic for another thread. However, if you study the Old Testament, you can find several violent passages there as well, counterbalanced by more conciliatory verses, just as in the Quran. I simply don’t buy your argument, as I feel you are examining Islam through the non-neutral, subjective lens of your own faith and politics. Admittedly, it is difficult for any of us to examine anything except through subjective interpretation, but let’s at least make some effort. Incidentally, I also don’t buy your statement that the purpose of the Old Testament is to show the history of man in his immorality and the reason why we need Jesus! If you got that one wrong IMO, how can I trust your interpretation of the Quran? Nonetheless, thank you for the quotations; perhaps our discussion will stimulate me to read the text for myself.

 

[dusty_david]

LOL!! The poster didn’t say eradicate Muslims from the world but Islam.

Think of Islam as an ideology like communism but with an allah attached to it.

As a cult it is set out to control every aspect of your life.

We must show Muslims Christ.

Devout Muslims believe their faith is true like devout Christians believe their faith is true. And right here on this website there are Christians who rather die than convert. I expect no less from the Muslims. Therefore to convert Muslims and eradicate Islam for the world, you are going to have kill a whole lot of Muslims.

“We must show Muslims Christ.”

Okay then. Please show me how you are a shining example of a follower of Christ.

 

[SedesDomi]

In the American south, most people, black and white are Christian, and the largest denomination(s) for both groups are Baptist. They mostly share the same religion. The idealogical sources for southern racism lie elsewhere.

So you’re saying that the ideological sources for Southern racism are not to be found in the Bible?

My point was not, however, to identify the source of muslim behavior, but to point out that the arguments about “small groups of violent people” and “peaceful majorities” are usually half-truths. It is a truism that only a small group, in any cause, are violent (kkk, terrorists, orangemen, IRA). But you are ignoring reality if you insist that the terrorists (or kkk, etc.) didn’t draw on the support and sympathy of a larger body of opinion behind them. You can debate on the relative proportions of this feeling in the population, but in both cases it is clearly not trivial.

I agree that terrorists can draw upon the support and sympathy of the larger population; this would lead to the conclusion that the KKK could (for long periods of time) draw upon the support and sympathy of the larger, Christian, Southern population.

Perhaps one example will serve: I was alarmed when mobs of muslims danced in the streets of arab countries on 9 / 11. Forgive me, if I am not calmed by the assurances of my “betters” (there is a good dose of moral posturing in much of this) that all is well and I have nothing to worry about.

News shows tend to broadcast certain events (such as yelling mobs), and not broadcast other events (such as Arab areas that were quiet), so I wouldn’t use what American news programs chose to show on TV, as firm evidence of the attitude of most or all Muslims.

 

[JHow]

So you’re saying that the ideological sources for Southern racism are not to be found in the Bible?

Start a “roots of southern racism” thread and we can talk about it. It is a very deep rabbit hole.

News shows tend to broadcast certain events (such as yelling mobs), and not broadcast other events (such as Arab areas that were quiet), so I wouldn’t use what American news programs chose to show on TV, as firm evidence of the attitude of most or all Muslims.

Okay. Let’s just use FBI statistics on terrorist incidents in the United States, then. The sober reporting of just the facts from a neutral govt. agency.

fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists

 

[Moro_Rock]

Devout Muslims believe their faith is true like devout Christians believe their faith is true. And right here on this website there are Christians who rather die than convert. I expect no less from the Muslims. Therefore to convert Muslims and eradicate Islam for the world, you are going to have kill a whole lot of Muslims.

“We must show Muslims Christ.”

Okay then. Please show me how you are a shining example of a follower of Christ.

The main difference being that Christians may be prepared to die for their faith but not to kill people who differ from them. When was the last time a Christian was murdered because he changed his religion?
Majority of Muslims poor and uneducated . Virtually impossible for them to make a critical study of the claims of the Koran .
Even if they did succeed they would be immediately charged with blasphemy. They do ’ nt have freedom of conscience.

 

[SedesDomi]

Start a “roots of southern racism” thread and we can talk about it. It is a very deep rabbit hole.

I don’t see how anyone could deny the claim that many Southerners used the Bible to justify racism. I was just curious whether you would agree or disagree.

Okay. Let’s just use FBI statistics on terrorist incidents in the United States, then. The sober reporting of just the facts from a neutral govt. agency.

fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists

The fact that there are Muslims who are also terrorists, I don’t deny.

 

[LtTony]

no , quran isn’t mohammad’s diary at all , actually his name mentioned only four times in whole quran

Do you mean the given name Mohammad, or the title of Allah’s prophet or messenger, or both?

For whatever reason, elwill has not answered my question. So I will provide my own…

elewill’s post was misleading, imo. The name “mohammad” may only appear 4 times, but the man is referred to many times, such as “Allah’s messenger.” So what elwill said is not true.
The Koran is obsessed with several things, imo, including an almost worship of Mohammad. He is king among the prophets, based on his religion.

As far as the number of times Mohammad or his alleged prophet title is referred to in the Koran, if I am wrong (and I could be), please correct me.

 

[JHow]

I don’t see how anyone could deny the claim that many Southerners used the Bible to justify racism. I was just curious whether you would agree or disagree.

But that’s not what you asked. To answer your orginal question, no, I don’t think the roots of southern racism lie in Christianity (or specifically, the Bible). I think that they lie in slavery, which pre-dates Christianity as an institution and which has been present in many cultures.

To answer your second question (posed above), of course many southerners attempted to justify racism and slavery through biblical arguments. Just as the abolitionists argued their viewpoint from a Christian viewpoint as well. Is it surprising in a predominately Christian society, that both sides in a debate muster Christian arguments for their positions?

It is my view that Christianity ultimately provided the greatest counter-movement against slavery in the US and also later in fighting for civil rights (well, Okay you can also count the Union Army!). Even the most casual student of american history will be aware of the role that black churches (Christians) played in the civil rights movement, for example.

The fact that there are Muslims who are also terrorists, I don’t deny.

Well that’s good you don’t deny it, because it is obvious.

The bigger questions though, are:

How many (what proportion) muslims support terrorism either tacitly (fellow-travellers, as the communists used to day), or more openly (through donations, etc.)? My thesis is you have to have a lot of people thinking a certain direction before some of them decide to go out and sign up for a suicide mission. The number must be greater than zero - how big is it? When people tell me that to ask the question is somehow insulting muslims, I get nervous.

Your thesis, (I assume), would be that such support is small and limited, and that what the terrorists are up to is simply not representative of muslims at large. To which, I say, fine, then please tell me what is the nature scope of the muslim counter-terrorist movement? Where are the muslim counterparts to the abolitionist movement, or the civil rights movement? Who are the persons working to correct the terrorists’ incorrect view of islam? Since they represent majority opinion, in your view, it should not be difficult to answer.

 

[sedonaman]

… Since they represent majority opinion, in your view, it should not be difficult to answer.

 

[schaick]

Devout Muslims believe their faith is true like devout Christians believe their faith is true. And right here on this website there are Christians who rather die than convert. I expect no less from the Muslims. Therefore to convert Muslims and eradicate Islam for the world, you are going to have kill a whole lot of Muslims.

“We must show Muslims Christ.”

Okay then. Please show me how you are a shining example of a follower of Christ.

No you have that wrong, there is no shining example of a follower of Christ, we are all sinners and saints.

**Jesus is the shining example, Jesus is the focus. ** Jesus is who we need to follow as a shining example.

I have been very blessed in helping a muslim become Christian. I was able to show that GOD loves us and wants a relationship with us to the point that HE gave HIS Son to pay our debt of sin because HE wants us near HIM.

Allah of the Quran wants only obedience and worship- he does not want a relationship.

 

[SedesDomi]

But that’s not what you asked. To answer your orginal question, no, I don’t think the roots of southern racism lie in Christianity (or specifically, the Bible). I think that they lie in slavery, which pre-dates Christianity as an institution and which has been present in many cultures.

Sure, slavery predates Christianity. The Roman enslaved lots of people, but they did not generally justify it on the basis of religious ideas. Southern racism added something extra to American slavery: the use of the Genesis narrative, namely the Noahic cycle, to justify the enslavement of Africans.

Who are the persons working to correct the terrorists’ incorrect view of islam? Since they represent majority opinion, in your view, it should not be difficult to answer.

My point was that you’re falling into the media trap when you invoke television images (which are meant to incite your emotional reaction) as a basis for drawing conclusions about whole regions.

 

[JHow]

Sure, slavery predates Christianity. The Roman enslaved lots of people, but they did not generally justify it on the basis of religious ideas. Southern racism added something extra to American slavery: the use of the Genesis narrative, namely the Noahic cycle, to justify the enslavement of Africans.

You have grabbed on to a small piece of the puzzle, that people used Biblical texts to justify slavery, but that is a side show to the main event. Southern pocket books had more to do with why slavery existed and racism persisted than a reading of Genesis.

But you are partly right, owing to the cirumstance that slaves in the 17th-18th century were bought in Africa, slavery in the south was attached to strictly one race, so a racial-justifcation could be concocted to explain or justify it. If one is explaining why the world is as it is in 18th century america, where else do you turn but to Genesis? Slave and free in other places were not necessarily separated by race, so a racial explanation/justification would be meaningless.

My point was that you’re falling into the media trap when you invoke television images (which are meant to incite your emotional reaction) as a basis for drawing conclusions about whole regions.

That “dancing in the streets” really bugs you, doesn’t it? It doesn’t help your case.

But, prove me wrong. Produce the numbers. Answer some of my questions.

 

[SedesDomi]

That “dancing in the streets” really bugs you, doesn’t it? It doesn’t help your case.

But, prove me wrong. Produce the numbers. Answer some of my questions.

I’m not here to prove you wrong. I’m here to warn you of the 4 M’s: the manipulative machinations of the mainstream media.