SPLIT: Who is a saint/holy?

[avflf]

Didn’t think he would have any need to confess. After all he is referred to as “The Holy Father” and “His Holiness”. A truly “Holy” person should be sinless … unless words no longer mean what they’re suppose to describe.

**Holy **(Merriam Webster Dictionary)
exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one **perfect **in goodness and righteousness

Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999 Microsoft Corporation.
pure: morally and spiritually **perfect **and of a devoutly religious character • a holy man

Are there different levels of “perfection”?

 

[drjohn]

We must always remember, and any Pope will tell you, that all Popes, duly elected with the direction of the Holy Spirit, are human beings just like all the rest of us. As such they are imperfect like all the rest of us and therefore open to commiting sins and need forgiveness, counselling and absolution just like all the rest of us sinners. Of course, any priest of the Pope’s choosing can be his designated Confessor. He may choose someone else from time to time or according to circumstances. As was recognized earlier, some Popes have used the Servites and some the Jesuits as in recent days. And yes, he too must do the reasonable and appropriate penance that the Confessor prescribes. In time of extreme danger, as in time of war or disaster, any Catholic may make a good confession to anyone who is right there.

It is an enormously important and yet often misunderstood sacrament.Unfortunately, the Sacrament of Penance is not practiced by the Faithful as much as in the past few centuries, but it is nonetheless always available. The Catechism explains all of this in appropriate detail. Also any priest - not just the Pope - would be happy to explicate further and with much more knowledge and understanding than I have. There are many wonderful stories of Popes appearing in St. Peter’s Basilica and stepping into a regular confessional to hear as many confessions as he can. Popes certainly know first hand the value of this sacrament and the way it is administered in the Church. I even suspect, though with no evidence, that some Popes at various times may well have just slipped into a confessional somewhere and had a regular priest hear his confession. I like to think that may have happened more than I have imagined!! :

 

[avflf]

We must always remember, and any Pope will tell you, that all Popes, duly elected with the direction of the Holy Spirit, are human beings just like all the rest of us. As such they are imperfect like all the rest of us and therefore open to commiting sins and need forgiveness, counselling and absolution just like all the rest of us sinners. :

In which case he should not be called or referred to as “Holy” anything and the title of “Pope” should suffice. Referring to him as “His Eminence the Pope” should provide the respect due to him.

 

[LilyM]

In which case he should not be called or referred to as “Holy” anything and the title of “Pope” should suffice. Referring to him as “His Eminence the Pope” should provide the respect due to him.

St Paul referred to most ALL the people to whom he wrote as ‘saints’ - meaning literally ‘holy ones’. As in ‘the saints of Corinth’, ‘the saints of Ephesus’ and the like.

Does that mean they were sinless? To a man, woman and child? Of course not. However, they WERE holy people, ‘saints’ in other words.

You and the dictionary need to rethink your definitions of holiness if you think it means perfection.

 

[Mumbles140]

**Holy **(Merriam Webster Dictionary)
exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one **perfect **in goodness and righteousness

Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999 Microsoft Corporation.
pure: morally and spiritually **perfect **and of a devoutly religious character • a holy man

Are there different levels of “perfection”?

Based on those qualifications, there have only been two “Holy” humans in all of history - the One who was the Word made flesh; the other was His mother. I think Saints Peter and Paul quite frankly deserve the title as well, though I doubt they would use it in referring to themselves. Also, I found these definitions on dictionary.com:

–Adjective

1. specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority; consecrated: holy ground.
2. dedicated or devoted to the service of God, the church, or religion: a holy man.
3. saintly; godly; pious; devout: a holy life.

The truth is that all of us are condemned to sin by the sins of our ancestors in the Garden, save Mary, who was spared the stain of original sin by the mercy of God, so that she could be a pure and holy vessel for God become Man. Even the Vicar of Christ needs his soul to be cleansed, although I doubt for the same reasons some of us need it.

 

[avflf]

St Paul referred to most ALL the people to whom he wrote as ‘saints’ - meaning literally ‘holy ones’. As in ‘the saints of Corinth’, ‘the saints of Ephesus’ and the like.

Does that mean they were sinless? To a man, woman and child? Of course not. However, they WERE holy people, ‘saints’ in other words.

You and the dictionary need to rethink your definitions of holiness if you think it means perfection.

If “saint” equates to “holy” why does the Church have to go to so much rigmarole to canonize anyone? Shouldn’t all the Holy Fathers be elevated to sainthood automatically on leaving Earth?

 

[Mumbles140]

St. Paul’s usage of ‘saint’ was not in the same implied sense as the Catholic Church declares someone through the process of canonization. Saint Paul was using the word saint to describe someone as holy–he was not declaring that their Eternal Soul had ascended into Heaven.

 

[avflf]

St. Paul’s usage of ‘saint’ was not in the same implied sense as the Catholic Church declares someone through the process of canonization. Saint Paul was using the word saint to describe someone as holy–he was not declaring that their Eternal Soul had ascended into Heaven.

How do you know what Paul implied? He calls them “beloved of God”, “elect of God”, “sanctified”, that they (the saints) “shall judge the world”, “of the household of God”. They were as close to sainthood as you can get. But I suppose words change their meaning with the passing of time, evolve, so to speak. Take the word “gay” for example; used to mean “happily excited, merry keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits” but nowadays is understood as defining a homosexual.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

How do you know what Paul implied? He calls them “beloved of God”, “elect of God”, “sanctified”, that they (the saints) “shall judge the world”, “of the household of God”. They were as close to sainthood as you can get. . . …

I doubt that Saint Paul was any surer of their salvation than he was of his own.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4* I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5* Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God

1 Corinthians 4:3-5

 

[avflf]

I doubt that Saint Paul was any surer of their salvation than he was of his own. 1 Corinthians 4:3-5

Considering the scriptural quote you gave, what makes the Church qualified to decree who’s a saint and who’s not. It seems, according to 1 Cor. 4, that canonization belongs to God alone, not for humans to decide as they cannot see into the hearts of the people being canonized (Verse 5)
But that’s the problem with Paul: unsure in some things but extremely confident in others concerning his own worth such as his utterance in Rom 2:16 “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” No doubts there. On judgment day God will have the books open (Paul’s writings) judging the dead.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[Bookcat]

It is important in this discussion to say that:

1. Saint is used in different senses.
2. Those canonized are examples of heroic sanctity
3. All in heaven are saints …some heroic some less so.
4. and Yes St. Paul referred to Christians of his day as saints…as holy…and indeed Pope Benedict reminded us of this…

“At the beginning of Christianity, the members of the Church were also called “saints”. In his First Letter to the Corinthians, St Paul addresses “those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Cor 1: 2). Indeed, Christians are already saints because Baptism unites them to Jesus and to his Paschal Mystery, but at the same time they must become so by conforming themselves every more closely to him.” --Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20071101_all-saints_en.html

 

[DCNBILL]

Didn’t think he would have any need to confess. After all he is referred to as “The Holy Father” and “His Holiness”. A truly “Holy” person should be sinless … unless words no longer mean what they’re suppose to describe.

**Holy **(Merriam Webster Dictionary)
exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one **perfect **in goodness and righteousness

Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999 Microsoft Corporation.
pure: morally and spiritually **perfect **and of a devoutly religious character • a holy man

Are there different levels of “perfection”?

To use secular sources as the definition for a term used in a particular belief system is a form of duplicity. When we use the trem Holy Father or His Holiness it is a term of respect for one who holds an important and indeed ultimatly a office appointed by the will of God. We believe that the Pope indeed is one who strives for holyness but are no means saiyng that he is a saint on earth. Note that your implication otherwise is not very chariatable and unsuiting for one who proclaims to be Christian.

Let us offer one another a sign of peace.

bill

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Considering the scriptural quote you gave, what makes the Church qualified to decree who’s a saint and who’s not. It seems, according to 1 Cor. 4, that canonization belongs to God alone, not for humans to decide as they cannot see into the hearts of the people being canonized (Verse 5)
But that’s the problem with Paul: unsure in some things but extremely confident in others concerning his own worth such as his utterance in Rom 2:16 “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” No doubts there. On judgment day God will have the books open (Paul’s writings) judging the dead.

See Luke 10:16

16* “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[mariahloves]

No one believes the Pope is sinless or perfect, and that’s not what is meant by people when they refer to him as the Holy Father, so why does it bother you?

 

[Cristian_B]

All Christians are saints and holy, because they are His Temple, and His Temple is Holy. But saints are not sinless, but purified with the blood of Jesus. Saints are all those who keep His commandments and are faithful to Jesus.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints, who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. -Revelation 14:12

The difference between God’s holiness and our holiness is that He is Holy and Saint because that is how He is (and how He will ever be) and that we are saints because He sanctified us, and we are not saint because of our own merit.

 

[avflf]

It is important in this discussion to say that:

1. Saint is used in different senses.
2. Those canonized are examples of heroic sanctity
3. All in heaven are saints …some heroic some less so.
4. and Yes St. Paul referred to Christians of his day as saints…as holy…and indeed Pope Benedict reminded us of this…

“Heroic sanctity”? This is the first time I hear of this differentiation between saints. So there are “saints” and “heroic saints” and the latter is higher than the former? Where did you get this from?

 

[avflf]

To use secular sources as the definition for a term used in a particular belief system is a form of duplicity. When we use the trem Holy Father or His Holiness it is a term of respect for one who holds an important and indeed ultimatly a office appointed by the will of God. We believe that the Pope indeed is one who strives for holyness but are no means saiyng that he is a saint on earth. Note that your implication otherwise is not very chariatable and unsuiting for one who proclaims to be Christian.

Let us offer one another a sign of peace.

bill

Not trying to be uncharitable but, unfortunately, the only dictionaries I have are secular. I will try and get a religious one… Can you give me the name of the one you use and who publishes it? I’d appreciate it.

 

[avflf]

See Luke 10:16

Do you also use that scripture as authority for the canonization of people?

 

[Pons]

“Heroic sanctity”? This is the first time I hear of this differentiation between saints. So there are “saints” and “heroic saints” and the latter is higher than the former? Where did you get this from?

All members of the Church - “those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven” - are saints. Hence the phrase “the communion of saints” in the Apostles’ Creed. See the Catechism on the meaning of the phrase. Some saints like Mary and the Apostles are given special mention and honor on earth because the Church is sure they are in heaven united with God. They and all those in heaven are the “Church triumphant”. The members of the Church on earth are the “Church militant” since we are at war with Satan. Those who have died and have not been condemned but have not been united with God are the “Church suffering”, because they are being purged in Purgatory, which is likely the subject of another thread…