SPLIT: Who is a saint/holy?

[FCEGM]

. . .When Jesus says that the “Father and I are one” or “if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father” he was not espousing the doctrine of the Trinity. Trinity, in my view, is no different from paganism … but I suspect you are not particularly interested in my views

OTC, your view reveals that in not understanding the Person of Christ you can never understand Mary or the Church.

 

[avflf]

OTC, your view reveals that in not understanding the Person of Christ you can never understand Mary or the Church.

That is your view and I didn’t expect anything else from you. I understand the Church and its doctrines, just not like you do.

 

[LilyM]

The miracle at the wedding feast was performed by Jesus, through the Father, not Mary. Miracles for canonization must attributed to the person being considered for it.

Hang on - we always attribute a miracle to the INTERCESSION of a particular Saint.

We NEVER say or believe that a Saint - or anyone - actually PERFORMS a miracle under their own steam, geddit? In other words, God (be it Jesus, the Father, the Spirit or any combination thereof) of course performs the miracle, as He performs all miracles. But He does so at the request/petition of the Saint. That’s what ALWAYS happens, even when St Peter raised Tabitha from the dead, it was ONLY done BY God at Peter’s request, and not through any power of Peter himself.

Again, at Cana Jesus performed a miracle at the request of Mary - at her intercession. That is exactly how every miracle happens, apart from those of Jesus Himself, of course, who being God need not ask anyone else for help (I don’t know where you get the idea that He had to ask the Father at Cana - He was God, of course He didn’t have to).

I mean it’s not like St Therese or John Paul 2 were physically present at the time their miracles occured, were they? The miracles occurred AFTER their death.

So how exactly do you think that they did anything other than petition God for a miracle which was duly delivered. We can declare them Saints because this granting of their prayer demonstrates God’s love of them and the fact that their prayers to Him are efficacious as the prayers of all righteous people are. And righteous + deceased = in heaven, no?

Do you also have Jael as a saint?

A lot of the Old Testament figures are believed to be in heaven, and are formally named as Saints in the Eastern Catholic churches at least. There’s no reason I know of why Jael shouldn’t be among them.

As for your remark I can also say that one can see too much where nothing exists.

 

[Janet1983]

A saint is a believer in Jesus Christ. We are all called to be saints… Because we are in Him we are separated from the world…

Source: Bible

Acts 9:13
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:25-26
But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Romans 16:2
That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

1 Corinthians 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their’s and our’s:

1 Corinthians 16:1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Corinthians 8:4
Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2 Corinthians 13:13
All the saints salute you.

Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:4
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Colossians 1:12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Also:

Acts 9:32; Acts 9:41; Acts 26:10; Romans 8:27; Romans 12:13; Romans 15:31; Romans 16:15; 1 Corinthians 6:1-2; 1 Corinthians 14:33; 1 Corinthians 16:15; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 9:1 2 Corinthians 9:12; Ephesians 1:1; Ephesians 1:15; Ephesians 1:18; Ephesians 2:19; Ephesians 3:8; Ephesians 3:18; Ephesians 5:3; Ephesians 6:18; Philippians 1:1; Philippians 4:21; Philippians 4:22; Colossians 1:4; Colossians 1:12; Colossians 1:26; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Timothy 5:10; Philemon 1:5; Philemon 1:7; Hebrews 6:10; Hebrews 13:24; Jude 1:3; Jude 1:14; Revelation 5:8; Revelation 8:3; Revelation 8:4; Revelation 11:18; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:10; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 15:3; Revelation 16:6; Revelation 17:6; Revelation 18:24; Revelation 19:8; Revelation 20:9

…and others…

May God bless you, my fellow saints, and me so that we will become more like Jesus Christ.
In Him,
Janet

 

[avflf]

Hang on - we always attribute a miracle to the INTERCESSION of a particular Saint.

We NEVER say or believe that a Saint - or anyone - actually PERFORMS a miracle under their own steam, geddit? In other words, God (be it Jesus, the Father, the Spirit or any combination thereof) of course performs the miracle, as He performs all miracles. But He does so at the request/petition of the Saint. That’s what ALWAYS happens, even when St Peter raised Tabitha from the dead, it was ONLY done BY God at Peter’s request, and not through any power of Peter himself.

Again, at Cana Jesus performed a miracle at the request of Mary - at her intercession. That is exactly how every miracle happens, apart from those of Jesus Himself, of course, who being God need not ask anyone else for help (I don’t know where you get the idea that He had to ask the Father at Cana - He was God, of course He didn’t have to).

I mean it’s not like St Therese or John Paul 2 were physically present at the time their miracles occured, were they? The miracles occurred AFTER their death.

So how exactly do you think that they did anything other than petition God for a miracle which was duly delivered. We can declare them Saints because this granting of their prayer demonstrates God’s love of them and the fact that their prayers to Him are efficacious as the prayers of all righteous people are. And righteous + deceased = in heaven, no?.

How do you attribute miracles to dead people, I mean how do you know it was effected by that particular person/spirit but yet it was God himself who performed it? When Christ performed the miracle at Canaan it was as a man - his human side - who kept telling his disciples that of himself he could do nothing; see Jn 5:31; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10. So God, through the man Jesus Christ, changed the water into wine. Mary has a very small role and mention in the written canonic records

A lot of the Old Testament figures are believed to be in heaven, and are formally named as Saints in the Eastern Catholic churches at least. There’s no reason I know of why Jael shouldn’t be among them.

What I mean is: was she canonized by the Church and you can now refer to her as Saint Jael and pray to her

 

[LilyM]

How do you attribute miracles to dead people, I mean how do you know it was effected by that particular person/spirit but yet it was God himself who performed it? When Christ performed the miracle at Canaan it was as a man - his human side - who kept telling his disciples that of himself he could do nothing; see Jn 5:31; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10. So God, through the man Jesus Christ, changed the water into wine. Mary has a very small role and mention in the written canonic records

Because someone prays to St Therese, and no other saint, about their cancer and it gets miraculously cured. Or prays with a relic of St Therese, and no other saint.

If I talk to my boss’s assistant, and no-one else, and ask him to help me convince the boss to give me a payrise, and next day the payrise magically occurs, I can logically conclude that the boss’s secretary had a little something to do with it - it’s too much to be mere coincidence, isn’t it?

What I mean is: was she canonized by the Church and you can now refer to her as Saint Jael and pray to her

I don’t know if she’s been formally canonised. There are 10,000 canonised saints, so it’d require a lot of searching to find out.

Of course you can pray to Jael as you can to most any person - as I can pray to you.

Can you refer to her as Saint? Well, the OT prophets are referred to (at least by our Eastern Catholic brothers) as St Moses, St Elijah and the like, so again, no reason why you can’t. It’s not like it’s wrong or a sin to use the title ‘saint’ for people who aren’t canonised, we’re ALL saints and ALL called such in scripture!

 

[avflf]

Because someone prays to St Therese, and no other saint, about their cancer and it gets miraculously cured. Or prays with a relic of St Therese, and no other saint.

If I talk to my boss’s assistant, and no-one else, and ask him to help me convince the boss to give me a payrise, and next day the payrise magically occurs, I can logically conclude that the boss’s secretary had a little something to do with it - it’s too much to be mere coincidence, isn’t it?

Your example in paragraph one and your deduction in paragraph two do not tally. It would be your boss’ assistant who would be in line for sainthood, not you

I don’t know if she’s been formally canonised. There are 10,000 canonised saints, so it’d require a lot of searching to find out.

Of course you can pray to Jael as you can to most any person - as I can pray to you.

Can you refer to her as Saint? Well, the OT prophets are referred to (at least by our Eastern Catholic brothers) as St Moses, St Elijah and the like, so again, no reason why you can’t. It’s not like it’s wrong or a sin to use the title ‘saint’ for people who aren’t canonised, we’re ALL saints and ALL called such in scripture!

Pray TO me? Not yet, I’m not dead, but I’ll let you know when I’m available. The Eastern Orthodox Church’s beliefs and traditions are different from Rome’s and the two are trying to come together through negotiation. If they both believed the same they would’ve united years back. So, you don’t really believe in their saints, do you?

 

[LilyM]

Your example in paragraph one and your deduction in paragraph two do not tally. It would be your boss’ assistant who would be in line for sainthood, not you

Yes, that’s the way I intended the example to work. In the example I am the petitioner (the equivalent of the person praying to St Therese) and the boss’s assistant is the intercessor (the equivalent of St Therese herself).

Pray TO me? Not yet, I’m not dead, but I’ll let you know when I’m available

.

‘Pray’ means simply to ask, a fact many non-Catholics seem to have lost sight of. People ‘pray’ to the Supreme Court of the US all the time (that’s the terminology lawyers use in their court documents) and the judges there certainly aren’t dead either - nor are they even especially holy.

The Eastern Orthodox Church’s beliefs and traditions are different from Rome’s and the two are trying to come together through negotiation. If they both believed the same they would’ve united years back. So, you don’t really believe in their saints, do you?

ChurchES, there are quite a number of 'em. Canonisation, at least of Saints who lived before the Orthodox and Catholic churches split up in the 1000s, is not one of the issues on which we disagree.

Jael, as I’m sure you can appreciate, lived well before the split

 

[avflf]

Yes, that’s the way I intended the example to work. In the example I am the petitioner (the equivalent of the person praying to St Therese) and the boss’s assistant is the intercessor (the equivalent of St Therese herself)

.

. OK but you wouldn’t be considered saint material.

‘Pray’ means simply to ask, a fact many non-Catholics seem to have lost sight of. People ‘pray’ to the Supreme Court of the US all the time (that’s the terminology lawyers use in their court documents) and the judges there certainly aren’t dead either - nor are they even especially holy.

As in “Pray tell”

ChurchES, there are quite a number of 'em. Canonisation, at least of Saints who lived before the Orthodox and Catholic churches split up in the 1000s, is not one of the issues on which we disagree.

Jael, as I’m sure you can appreciate, lived well before the split

In full agreement then. That’s nice. What was the rift all about?

 

[LilyM]

.

. OK but you wouldn’t be considered saint material.

Well, not based on the fact that I receive a miraculous answer to my prayers to a Saint, no.

Put it this way - Peter raised Tabitha from the dead. Is SHE to be considered especially holy as a result? No. Is Peter? Yes,

As in “Pray tell”

:yup:

In full agreement then. That’s nice. What was the rift all about?

I’ve not studied it in detail, so I can’t tell you what all the differences were. I know there were disagreements about the nature and extent of Papal authority.

And there was a dispute about the ‘filioque’ clause of the Nicene Creed. Catholics believe (and our Creed says) that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Orthodox believe that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, and not the Son (or not equally from the Son).

 

[avflf]

Well, not based on the fact that I receive a miraculous answer to my prayers to a Saint, no.

Put it this way - Peter raised Tabitha from the dead. Is SHE to be considered especially holy as a result? No. Is Peter? Yes,

We’re in agreement then. Peter is one of the few that can boast of a miracle whilst still alive.

I’ve not studied it in detail, so I can’t tell you what all the differences were. I know there were disagreements about the nature and extent of Papal authority.

And there was a dispute about the ‘filioque’ clause of the Nicene Creed. Catholics believe (and our Creed says) that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Orthodox believe that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, and not the Son (or not equally from the Son).

How can the Holy Spirit “proceed” from anything as he is equal to the Father and the Son, according to the Church? Unless one looks at it as an emanation or a force used by God the Father to perform certain tasks, ie the Creation and the impregnation of Mary. Jesus said, twice, that he’d ask God the Father to send the Comforter (Joh 14:16, 26) yet, once, he says that he, himself, would send the Holy Spirit (Joh 15:26). Maybe the Eastern Church sided with the majority.

 

[LilyM]

We’re in agreement then. Peter is one of the few that can boast of a miracle whilst still alive.

Well, a miracle that occurred whilst they were still alive which was recorded for posterity, perhaps. Many of the miracles that we experience every day don’t go recorded, y’know.

How can the Holy Spirit “proceed” from anything as he is equal to the Father and the Son, according to the Church? Unless one looks at it as an emanation or a force used by God the Father to perform certain tasks, ie the Creation and the impregnation of Mary. Jesus said, twice, that he’d ask God the Father to send the Comforter (Joh 14:16, 26) yet, once, he says that he, himself, would send the Holy Spirit (Joh 15:26). Maybe the Eastern Church sided with the majority.

The Spirit in Catholic theology (as I understand it) is the product of the love between Father and Son. Since their love is so perfect and real it MUST be productive, as the love between husband and wife produces children. A child is equal to its parents in that it is human as they are, but it nonetheless proceeds from their love. So the Spirit is equal to the Father and Son but nonethless proceeds from them.

 

[avflf]

…The Spirit in Catholic theology (as I understand it) is the product of the love between Father and Son. Since their love is so perfect and real it MUST be productive, as the love between husband and wife produces children. A child is equal to its parents in that it is human as they are, but it nonetheless proceeds from their love. So the Spirit is equal to the Father and Son but nonethless proceeds from them.

I would go back and check it again. It might make sense to you but not to me, in fact it sounds very peculiar. Anyway, once you grasp the Oneness of God you won’t need the Trinitarian mystery; it will all become plain to you.

 

[davidv]

I would go back and check it again. It might make sense to you but not to me, in fact it sounds very peculiar. Anyway, once you grasp the Oneness of God you won’t need the Trinitarian mystery; it will all become plain to you.

It is plain to me that the Teachings on the Trinity and the Oneness of God are not contradictory.

By the way, how does this relate to the OP?

 

[avflf]

It is plain to me that the Teachings on the Trinity and the Oneness of God are not contradictory.

By the way, how does this relate to the OP?

Sorry, you got me there. What does OP stand for?
As for the Trinity and the Oneness teachings the difference is that one believes in 3 persons within 1 God or as you refer most often, 3 Gods (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) in one Deity. Oneness doctrine sees 1 God in 3 different manifestations. A slight difference, nevertheless … different

 

[davidv]

Sorry, you got me there. What does OP stand for?
As for the Trinity and the Oneness teachings the difference is that one believes in 3 persons within 1 God or as you refer most often, 3 Gods (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) in one Deity. Oneness doctrine sees 1 God in 3 different manifestations. A slight difference, nevertheless … different

OP = Original Post

The “One God, three Persons” is what I believe.

 

[avflf]

OP = Original Post.

Nothing really, just chatting away, sorry about that.

The “One God, three Persons” is what I believe.

OK