SPLIT: Why Not A United Christendom?

[paarsurrey]

BTW, your #6 is about the only one that is really not accurate

Hi
If I delete # 6 from the list would that be fine? Then we would be left with the ten major ones.
I gather from your post that the fundamental difference between Catholicism and Protestants is their belief in Sola Scriptura.
This could be included in the Major issues, if it is so important; How could you rephrase the sentence, please?
Also if you like to reduce the issues to say to only nine, which one you would prefer to delete next?
Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
I understand that Sola Scriptura is one of the Major issues between my Protestant friends and my Catholic friends.
The true Catholics, in my opinion, should follow Jesus not anyone else:

1. For the religious text whether written or verbal that which is from the direct mouth of Jesus, should be given preference over anything said or written by anybody else whosoever.
2. The practices should be also from the deeds of Jesus, on whom he had done a continuous performance, without break say daily, weekly etc basis and he has set his followers on to it before his disappearance.
3. The history or tradition cannot replace #1 and #2 above, these could be respected if these are in line with #1 and #2 above, otherwise rejected.
   Jesus must be preferred, that is my view in nutshell.
   Thanks

 

[YinYangMom]

Hi
The major issues, in my opinion, common to both Protestants and Catholics are:

1. Trinity- Three in one and one in three
2. Jesus is God
3. Jesus is Son of God
4. Jesus is Son of Man

2, 3 and 5 are aspects of #1. You are correct that all Christians hold to at least those 4 points.

1. Mary is blessed

I don’t think any Christian denies Mary is blessed. Where they differ in whether or not and how we show her that we consider her blessed. For some it’s enough to just acknowledge the fact that she is. For us Catholics, we opt to revere her blessedness in honor of her son, our Lord. That’s a real big issue between Catholics and Protestants.

1. Paul is the foremost Apostle

This one sort of led to the first ‘rift’. Roman Catholics consider Peter the foremost apostle, at least the one to whom the keys of the kingdom of heaven were given for safekeeping. The Orthodox hold to the belief that the keys were given to each of the apostles such that there was no single apostle granted more authority. Thus their patriarch system is set up equally distributed. Paul is no more the foremost apostle for them than Peter or any of the others.

1. Both believe OT and NT

The Protestants have omitted the deuterocanonical books, so what consitutes the OT and NT is the dividing issue.

1. Jesus died for human sins.
2. Jesus died on Cross for Christian’s sins

Both Protestants and Catholics would agree Jesus died on the cross for all humanity’s sins. Neither would single out Christians from the rest of the human race.

1. Jesus got resurrected from the dead

Well, neither Protestants or Catholics would say he ‘got’ resurrected. Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, and to that, we would agree.

1. Jesus ascended to heaven and is sitting of right hand of God the Father and has assumed power.

Yep, we’d agree with that. As well as that he’s coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead. That’s a fundamental Christian belief which leads us to remain focused on His will during our lifetime.

Something common to both but which causes a major rift is that we all believe in one, holy, catholic church.

Catholics believe that church is apostolic. Some protestant demoninations do, others do not.

I think they’d all agree the church is holy. What makes it holy seems to be a matter of division.

They’d all agree the church is catholic - in the literal sense of the word, meaning UNIVERSAL.

And they’d all agree the church is one. Defining which church is THE One is a major rift. Catholics claim to be the ONE (Roman, plus the other 22 rites) because of apostolic succession, and consider all other Christians to be splintered from Her.

Since the protestants don’t hold to apostolic succession, they consider their ‘church’ to be the ONE, with the Catholics having been the ones to splinter off.

The tricky part is both Catholics and Protestants refer to Scripture, and Jesus’ words specifically, to support their positions. So by your directives #1 and 2 you can see why even those are not enough to reunite the ONE true Church of Christ. In theory, it seems it would be enough, in practice, it is not. Faith and the grace of God are required for the true healing to take place. We must continually pray for the reunification of His church and reach out to our separated bretheren in love, truth, and charity.

 

[YinYangMom]

Hi
I understand that Sola Scriptura is one of the Major issues between my Protestant friends and my Catholic friends.
The true Catholics, in my opinion, should follow Jesus not anyone else:

1. For the religious text whether written or verbal that which is from the direct mouth of Jesus, should be given preference over anything said or written by anybody else whosoever.
2. The practices should be also from the deeds of Jesus, on whom he had done a continuous performance, without break say daily, weekly etc basis and he has set his followers on to it before his disappearance.
3. The history or tradition cannot replace #1 and #2 above, these could be respected if these are in line with #1 and #2 above, otherwise rejected.
   Jesus must be preferred, that is my view in nutshell.
   Thanks

But who determines what came directly from the mouth of Jesus?
Scriptures weren’t written for at least 70 years after his death, resurrection and ascension.

There are many writings purporting to record the words of Jesus. Those writings evolved after the apostles died. So to whom should Christians turn to authenticate all writings claiming to present the words and deeds of Jeus?

For 900 years Christians turned to the Catholic church represented in Rome by Peter and his successors (the popes).

But the schism with the Eastern Orthodox came from the Council at Niceae. It was declared at that time that the Creed would be changed to reflect that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The Eastern Orthodox maintain the Spirit proceeds from the Father, and is worshiped together with the Father and the Son.

Jesus speaks of His relationship to His Father and the Spirit several times in Scripture, but as you can see, that was not enough to hold the Church together when it came down to this aspect of the Spirit’s role in the Trinity. Jesus never said straight out how the Trinity works, that’s why it’s considered a mystery. The Church attempts to reveal the role of the Trinity based upon Her understanding of it at any given time. That the Church divided on this one aspect alone shows how complicated your rules #1 and 2 can be to maintain as the yardstick by which to measure ‘authenticity’ with regard to Jesus’ intent and will for His people.

Our protestant brothers didn’t separate from the Church for another 600 years. Their reasons are based on Sola Scriptura, but fail to take into consideration that the Bible came from Oral Tradition and does not contain Jesus’ every word and deed, plus they took out the deuterocanonical books. Yet, they are sincerely convinced they are carrying out the will of Jesus by placing their trust for their salvation in the Bible alone, even though nowhere in that Bible does it read: only in the words revealed here will you come to know My will.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus never said straight out how the Trinity works, that’s why it’s considered a mystery.

Hi
A good post offering summary of history and thoght of Catholic Faith .
It is strange though that Jesus neither said straight out about **Trinity **nor he spoke that it is a mystery.

Then who compels my Catholic friends to believe?:

1. In Trinity
   2.That it is a mystery.
   If Jesus did not burden you with these beliefs specifically, then why not to remain free of them.
   I believe Catholics are free people.
   I love Jesus and Mary.
   Thanks

 

[RedSoxFan]

Hi
When all the major religious beliefs of Catholics and Protestants are the same ( from the stand point of Islam or other religions), the differences if any are in the minor issues. I think both the Catholics and Protestants are sincere people. So, why don’t they merge into one United Chrsitendom . Of course they shall have to make some sacrifice, but that is the lesson Jesus told. Would it be sinful?
Thanks

Sinful? Heck no, just impossible. Then again everyone would start arguing who was to give up what. Picture it this way. Could Sunni and Shitte ever put aside their differences for all time?

 

[YinYangMom]

Then who compels my Catholic friends to believe?:

The Holy Spirit.

By the grace of God His Truth is revealed to mankind through:

Himself when He spoke directly to Moses and issued the ten commandments as well as directed the writings of the Old Testament

Himself when He walked the earth as Jesus, the Son of Man. It is the life of Jesus which is preserved in Scriptures, Oral Tradition and the Sacraments.

The Holy Spirit, which is what breathes life to man, and thus is why we know we are created in His image and likeness. The Holy Spirit gives us the gifts we need to come to know God and His will for us.

and via His Church, who received the Truth necessary to cooperate with the Trinity in bringing about the salvation of mankind by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost until Jesus comes again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

Jesus spoke of His Father. He spoke of The Spirit. He spoke of His relationship to both. Some of it was direct. Some of it was indirect. Through the grace of God man has come to understand a good part of that complicated relationship, but we can never fully comprehend or explain it and that is why it is considered a mystery. There are some things our human minds are incapable of processing but all will be revealed when we enter into heaven to spend eternity with God the Trinity. Then, our minds will no longer be restricted or limited by this physical realm. In the meantime, we turn to the Church to help us understand as best we can, God’s will for us.

 

[paarsurrey]

Sinful? Heck no, just impossible. Then again everyone would start arguing who was to give up what.

Hi
Everyone is already arguing, at least that would be in a positive direction.
Please read my post #20 . Kindly just inform; would you suggest to delete or add any point in it?
Are you a Protestant?
Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

The Holy Spirit.

Hi
Coming to the thread,please read my post #20 and kindly just inform; would you suggest to delete or add any point in it?
Thanks

 

[YinYangMom]

Hi
Coming to the thread,please read my post #20 and kindly just inform; would you suggest to delete or add any point in it?
Thanks

I am not just coming into the thread.
Have been here for quite a while.
I did respond to your post #20 with suggestions.
See my posts #23 and #24.
Would you suggest to delete or add any point in those?

 

[YinYangMom]

Hi
It is strange though that Jesus neither said straight out about **Trinity **nor he spoke that it is a mystery.

Jesus did straight out tell us of the existence of Our Father and of the Spirit/Paraclete. He also told us His relationship to each and to both. It is from his descriptions of that relationship that the Church was able to understand the concept of the Trinity.

Keep in mind also, that at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit revealed to the twelve apostles all that they would need to know to preserve God’s truth and plan for mankind until He returns. Since the Bible does not contain every word and action of Jesus, we have that revelation received by the Apostles, along with their personal experiences with Jesus, passed down to generations through oral Tradition. Perhaps it was in that Pentecost revelation that the Trinitarian reality was received. The early church fathers conveyed what they knew in terms we can understand, but all of it comes from what Jesus revealed to the apostles about Himself, God, and the Holy Spirit.

It remains a mystery because our limited human minds cannot comprehend the depth and complex nature of God.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Hi
Everyone is already arguing, at least that would be in a positive direction.
Please read my post #20 . Kindly just inform; would you suggest to delete or add any point in it?
Are you a Protestant?
Thanks

Hey Ahmadi,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, been busy with work. True everyone is arguing already. I guess I should say that the arguement would just evolve. The problem is that people are by nature so stubborn that I don’t think change can happen quickly. I am more likely to believe that the “Orthodox” and Catholic churches can reconcile before any large Protestant demonination could. Though any step towards that reconciliation is welcome.
As for your list it’s interesting. I believe that #6 is not quite accurate. Still I am fond of St. Paul. Any martyr gets a certain level of respect. Peter and Paul espeacially for thier roles in the founding of the Church in Rome (in large part because of thier deaths there). I think when people start to consider which saint did more or less than another saint you begin to lose focus on what that saint’s message to the world would have been. It’s fine to have a favorite saint but, to try to figure out which one is closest to God, and it feels like one might be headed to trouble. Sure, for Catholics, Peter is the “rock” that God founded his church upon and as such, being a Catholic, if absolutely forced to chose, he would be the “biggest” saint. Though I hate to do that. They are all “big” saints. Does that help clarify what I believe?