Spontaneous EMHC?

[Aramis]

No, this really is a mountain forming from a molehill, benedictgal. You can keep going back to the “documents” all you want, but the facts are at issue.

Have you considered at all that if the woman acted of her own accord that the priest didn’t discuss the matter with her after? If you haven’t, then that’s our mountain right there.

It doesn’t matter who did it nor why, it still is liturgical abuse. It was a blatantly illicit action in direct violation of the Laws of the Church. It isn’t quite a sacrilege.

It is one that could, however, be dealt with by education, and may not involve the priest in the commission.

Only a priest may take up the cup to commune themselves, and only a priest or deacon may take up the cup from the altar to distribute communion under the liquid species with the accidents of wine. EMHC’s are required to be handed the patton, ciborium, or cup by a priest or deacon; they may not even pass it from one to another. Rome defined these rules for the Roman Mass, and promulgated them, years ago. They are far more relaxed than the older rules were.

If she does it again, the gal should be talked to by the priest.

 

[Newbie2]

[Edited]

Perhaps the person mentioned in the OP made a mistake. The OP should mention it to the Priest. It shouldn’t be done that way again, but the world is not ending because it was. End of story, methinks.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Just for the record:

It was not at all my intention to create a six-page thread, or to criticize a priest or a staff member or create any furor at all.

In my parish, training seems to be minimal for most things, and so, being who I am, I ask a zillion questions. Deacon and priest are both orthodox and pastoral, though former priest was perhaps not so careful sometimes and some things did happen outside the rubrics and obviously still continue.

This was a situation I had not seen before, and was pretty sure was problematic. I am acquainted with both the priest and the staff member, and while I didn’t want to get into details originally (because I just wanted a straight answer to a straight question ), I am pretty sure that the priest did not consecrate enough wine for all of us. I can also report that the staff member once told me that the “old men in Rome” were not in touch with people in the pews. In this case, I am certain that as someone in touch with people in the pews, she wanted to provide both species to us and was not terribly concerned with the rubrics.

I respect and appreciate this woman, and have no desire to slam her. I know she meant well. I wanted to know if what she did is okay, because I am an EMHC and I saw a new variant and needed to know if it was okay and if I should anticipate serving in that way.

I will add that this is of particular concern, because we once had a priest who nearly passed out at the altar from illness, and completed the consecration almost sprawled on it. He made it to his seat, and the deacon took both species, stepped down, and stared at me. Obviously he only had two hands and needed help, but as an inexperienced EMHC, I didn’t have a clue what was proper to do, so I just broke eye contact and fortunately a more experienced person was there and went up.

I want to be prepared to do what is right, and I felt this was an a appropriate place to ask without embarrassing anyone.

 

[zab]

:manvspc:

 

[DebChris]

Just for the record:

It was not at all my intention to create a six-page thread, or to criticize a priest or a staff member or create any furor at all.

In my parish, training seems to be minimal for most things, and so, being who I am, I ask a zillion questions. Deacon and priest are both orthodox and pastoral, though former priest was perhaps not so careful sometimes and some things did happen outside the rubrics and obviously still continue.

This was a situation I had not seen before, and was pretty sure was problematic. I am acquainted with both the priest and the staff member, and while I didn’t want to get into details originally (because I just wanted a straight answer to a straight question ), I am pretty sure that the priest did not consecrate enough wine for all of us. I can also report that the staff member once told me that the “old men in Rome” were not in touch with people in the pews. In this case, I am certain that as someone in touch with people in the pews, she wanted to provide both species to us and was not terribly concerned with the rubrics.

I respect and appreciate this woman, and have no desire to slam her. I know she meant well. I wanted to know if what she did is okay, because I am an EMHC and I saw a new variant and needed to know if it was okay and if I should anticipate serving in that way.

I will add that this is of particular concern, because we once had a priest who nearly passed out at the altar from illness, and completed the consecration almost sprawled on it. He made it to his seat, and the deacon took both species, stepped down, and stared at me. Obviously he only had two hands and needed help, but as an inexperienced EMHC, I didn’t have a clue what was proper to do, so I just broke eye contact and fortunately a more experienced person was there and went up.

I want to be prepared to do what is right, and I felt this was an a appropriate place to ask without embarrassing anyone.

This is how I understood your question.
It is common practice for a commissioned EMHC to take the initiative after the priest has taken his communion.
If you are not needed, the priest will give a simple hand up or other signal. You are just learning to respond to the eye contact the priest or deacon is giving indicating that you are indeed needed.
If the woman stepped forward without direction from the priest, then yes, she was wrong. Charity generally means that corrections are privately and discretely given.
While none of us knows everything that took place surrounding this incident, charity tells me that is how the priest handled it.

 

[MusicMan]

EvelynEVF, you are probably 100% correct that the priest did not intend to have the faithful receive the Precious Blood. From everything you have written, that would be a logical conclusion. Father didn’t have a back-up scheduled to minister in place of the Deacon, he didn’t call for one at the appointed time, and as you mentioned there wasn’t much Precious Blood in the chalice when you received. I buy your explanation.

However, rather than trot out the ubiquitous documents, no one really looked at how things may have unfolded. People seem so wrapped up in the woman in question “self-communing” that they neglect a simple, innocent explanation: If the Deacon is almost always there, maybe Father forgot to get a lay person to distribute the Cup in his absence, and so the woman took it upon herself in an honest attempt to be helpful.

Yes, picking up the cibroria or the chalice from the altar is illicit. Yes, self-communing is forbidden by the documents. Yes, there is a pandemic of stupid on the part of lay people who serve as emHC. But, c’mon people, give this woman a break. She probably just thought she was being helpful, and I’d bet fifty bucks that if Father talked to her after Mass she turned bright red and was completely embarrassed. I’d bet another twenty that she was in tears.

Of course, the other possibility is that Father did goof, and asked her to bail him out, not recalling in his goof that he needed to go to the altar and commune her and give her the chalice to distribute from.

I don’t think this really is a case of the afore mentioned pandemic of stupid, a case of wanna-be priests, or anything else nefarious that is going on in lots of parishes. Fifty says it was a misunderstanding.

 

[ASD]

AHOOOGA! AHOOGA! ABUSE ALERT! ABUSE ALERT!

Calling all Pharisees to haul out the documents! This was WRONG! Let’s get ourselves in a Lather!

AHOOGA! AHOOGA!

Did you actually call Catholic laity who are concerned about Catholic liturgy Pharisees?

Although, AFAIK, there isn’t a great deal known about Pharisees, I assume you intend to belittle us by suggesting that we’re people mistakenly caught up in unimportant external forms, people who actually miss the point of the Gospels?

Wow. You demonstrate pretty clearly that all the rhetoric we constantly hear about inclusiveness, diversity, empowerment, etc, doesn’t amount to much. Maybe it only applies to certain agendas? Only some concerns? What would be a good Biblical tag for hypocrite? Hmm. Well, how about Pharisee? (E.g., Mt 23:27)

If you mean to imply that we don’t understand that we’re discussing a small incident, probably a mistake, in general terms, as indicative of broader trends, you’re quite mistaken. We get it.

I’m not a Bible scholar, so I might be off a little here. But, to the extent that some people sincerely believe that Catholics who are distressed about what happens at Mass these days are just fools, I think St. Paul’s remarks in 1 Corinthians 8:9, ff and Romans 14 about the attitude of the “strong” toward the “weak” worth reading again.

P.S. (Posting in all caps to a forum, like ABUSE ALERT!, is conventionally understood to indicate that poster is “in a Lather sic].”)

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[benedictgal]

This is how I understood your question.
It is common practice for a commissioned EMHC to take the initiative after the priest has taken his communion.
If you are not needed, the priest will give a simple hand up or other signal. You are just learning to respond to the eye contact the priest or deacon is giving indicating that you are indeed needed.
If the woman stepped forward without direction from the priest, then yes, she was wrong. Charity generally means that corrections are privately and discretely given.
While none of us knows everything that took place surrounding this incident, charity tells me that is how the priest handled it.

Please show us where in the documents it is common initiative for the EMHC to take the intiative after the priest has communicated. If an EMHC is needed, the priest will signal that individual, not the other way around. We don’t approach unless we are told to come and/or when it is our turn to come forward if we have been assigned to assist at that Mass. That is what the GIRM says.

 

[benedictgal]

Just for the record:

It was not at all my intention to create a six-page thread, or to criticize a priest or a staff member or create any furor at all.

In my parish, training seems to be minimal for most things, and so, being who I am, I ask a zillion questions. Deacon and priest are both orthodox and pastoral, though former priest was perhaps not so careful sometimes and some things did happen outside the rubrics and obviously still continue.

This was a situation I had not seen before, and was pretty sure was problematic. I am acquainted with both the priest and the staff member, and while I didn’t want to get into details originally (because I just wanted a straight answer to a straight question ), I am pretty sure that the priest did not consecrate enough wine for all of us. I can also report that the staff member once told me that the “old men in Rome” were not in touch with people in the pews. In this case, I am certain that as someone in touch with people in the pews, she wanted to provide both species to us and was not terribly concerned with the rubrics.

I respect and appreciate this woman, and have no desire to slam her. I know she meant well. I wanted to know if what she did is okay, because I am an EMHC and I saw a new variant and needed to know if it was okay and if I should anticipate serving in that way.

I will add that this is of particular concern, because we once had a priest who nearly passed out at the altar from illness, and completed the consecration almost sprawled on it. He made it to his seat, and the deacon took both species, stepped down, and stared at me. Obviously he only had two hands and needed help, but as an inexperienced EMHC, I didn’t have a clue what was proper to do, so I just broke eye contact and fortunately a more experienced person was there and went up.

I want to be prepared to do what is right, and I felt this was an a appropriate place to ask without embarrassing anyone.

Evelyn, emergencies like what you described towards the end of your post are bound to happen. That one is understandable.

However, what concerns me is the attitude that this particular staff member has towards Rome. I have heard this from quite a few people, including some priests down here. That kind of attitude is troubling, especially when it comes from those who work for the Church. The issue of “the people in the pews” really has no bearing in what happened. I think we need to give the folks in the pews some credit regarding fideilty to Rome. But, that is for another thread.

You stated the facts as you saw them played out. I provided the necessary documentation to indicate that such action was wrong because it went against the rubrics. For my part, what I explained was the fact that the woman’s actions were wrong, as well-meaning as they may have been.

As I said earlier, perhaps this will be a teaching moment for the priest, the staff and the EMHCs about the proper protocol and about following the GIRM and all of the othe authoritative documents of the Holy See.

 

[DebChris]

Please show us where in the documents it is common initiative for the EMHC to take the intiative after the priest has communicated. If an EMHC is needed, the priest will signal that individual, not the other way around. We don’t approach unless we are told to come and/or when it is our turn to come forward if we have been assigned to assist at that Mass. That is what the GIRM says.

I do not sit with the GIRM in front of me. The OP stated that she did not recognize the signal.
I belong to a parish in which both species are offered at every Mass.
We do not have a deacon. During the daily Mass, an EMCH will step forward to help the priest. It is generally the same person each day because she attends daily. It is only on days that she is not there that somebody else will step forward. And yes, if the person is slow stepping forward, the priest will signal his need.
On Sundays, those who are to assist process during the beginning of Mass. If somebody is missing, again, a commissioned EMCH will step forward although not originally scheduled. This is the unspoken understanding in my parish.
We cover for one another as needed.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I ran it by the deacon this afternoon as a situation I had seen, but gave little detail, only that the first communicant went and retrieved the chalice herself and ministered the Precious Blood to the rest of the communicants. I chose not to disclose that it happened at our parish, and he didn’t ask. His official take was that it was definitely not okay, and I should not ever do that myself, but that he expects it was a person trying to be helpful without actually having the necessary knowledge to do it right.

We had a good discussion about rubrics, and his personal experience with having to confront priests who mess around and having to figure out how to pick battles and how hard to push and still respect the authority of a pastor. It was very interesting to get his take on some of the illicit things that happen in my parish.

 

[DebChris]

I ran it by the deacon this afternoon as a situation I had seen, but gave little detail, only that the first communicant went and retrieved the chalice herself and ministered the Precious Blood to the rest of the communicants. I chose not to disclose that it happened at our parish, and he didn’t ask. His official take was that it was definitely not okay, and I should not ever do that myself, but that he expects it was a person trying to be helpful without actually having the necessary knowledge to do it right.

We had a good discussion about rubrics, and his personal experience with having to confront priests who mess around and having to figure out how to pick battles and how hard to push and still respect the authority of a pastor. It was very interesting to get his take on some of the illicit things that happen in my parish.

I am glad that you talked to the deacon.
It sounds like he gave you much wisdom especially when it comes to choosing battles. He answered your original question,
When I first became an EMCH, my name was sent to the bishop who wanted to know every person who touched the Eucharist.
Does your parish have an official commissioning service? I think it helps when parishioners know who is authorized and that all others are not. I have never seen an incident such as you mentioned. I agree with your deacon that the action was well intended, but wrong.
In that earlier parish, each lector and EMCH was given a special pin during our commissioning. Catechists, likewise, received the same type of attention. In my current parish, catechists receive this special recognition when we complete level I of catechist training. It is a much smaller parish than where I first started.
We also receive periodic retraining to make sure that everybody is on the same page when it comes to rubrics. One of the things covered in our last retraining sessions was the idea of couples self-communicating. Apparently it is common practice during Marriage Encounter for one person to receive the chalice and then turn and offer the chalice to his spouse. This is not to be allowed. It is also the role of the minister of the cup to stop a person with a host and have him/her consume it immediately or return it to the EMCH. I am glad I have never faced either situation.
You will do well as an EMCH.

 

[EvelynEVF]

DebChris,

We do not have a commissioning. In fact, after I signed up to help, a few weeks later a friend noticed my name in the bulletin on the schedule. I hadn’t even known to look. I flipped, bc when I grew up, in a liturgical protestant church, my mom was an emhc, and she has six weekly sessions of training, so that’s what I expected. I only had a week’s notice! When I called the church secretary, I was given a very short handout with instructions, so you can bet I watched VERY closely at the next weekend Mass.

I just about fainted the first time I served, and I am still very aware of just What is in that chalice! Not to mention that there was quite a bit of Precious Blood remaining that time, and I didn’t realize I didn’t have to finish it all. The accidents of a good 6oz of wine on an already nervous stomach made my walk back home way more eventful than I cared for it to be. Fortunately I managed to keep it all down.

I recently substituted at a couple of school Masses, and it was a challenge to keep the kids from spilling. They tend to hand it back abruptly.

 

[DebChris]

DebChris,

We do not have a commissioning. In fact, after I signed up to help, a few weeks later a friend noticed my name in the bulletin on the schedule. I hadn’t even known to look. I flipped, bc when I grew up, in a liturgical protestant church, my mom was an emhc, and she has six weekly sessions of training, so that’s what I expected. I only had a week’s notice! When I called the church secretary, I was given a very short handout with instructions, so you can bet I watched VERY closely at the next weekend Mass.

I just about fainted the first time I served, and I am still very aware of just What is in that chalice! Not to mention that there was quite a bit of Precious Blood remaining that time, and I didn’t realize I didn’t have to finish it all. The accidents of a good 6oz of wine on an already nervous stomach made my walk back home way more eventful than I cared for it to be. Fortunately I managed to keep it all down.

I recently substituted at a couple of school Masses, and it was a challenge to keep the kids from spilling. They tend to hand it back abruptly.

The knowledge of Who it is we hold never diminishes. It is very humbling.
In over 20 years, I have only had one spill. It splashed over when somebody handed the chalice back too quickly. The chalices that we usually use are deeper.
I have asked the other person assisting to help me consume what was left of the Precious Blood when it was more than I was accustomed to. If you are alone, it is fine to simply cover what you have not finished. I have had the priest ask for assistance after Mass with consuming leftovers.
A short handout is definitely not enough. Again, you are still learning. The deacon can help, time permitting. In my first parish, it was the deacon who gave the instructions over several evenings. We had the opportunity to practice with empty chalices. We learned why we say “The Body of Christ” or “The Blood of Christ” instead of “This is the Body (Blood) of Christ.”
In my current parish, an experienced EMCH is in charge of training. Being a smaller parish, some things are a little different than they were in the larger parish, mostly in terms of timing. The more experienced help those who are just beginning.
In the recent training, we reviewed what to do in case of spills or if somebody brings a pix. These are areas where training is needed. Both experienced and new EMCH’s received the same training.

 

[benedictgal]

I do not sit with the GIRM in front of me. The OP stated that she did not recognize the signal.
I belong to a parish in which both species are offered at every Mass.
We do not have a deacon. During the daily Mass, an EMCH will step forward to help the priest. It is generally the same person each day because she attends daily. It is only on days that she is not there that somebody else will step forward. And yes, if the person is slow stepping forward, the priest will signal his need.
On Sundays, those who are to assist process during the beginning of Mass. If somebody is missing, again, a commissioned EMCH will step forward although not originally scheduled. This is the unspoken understanding in my parish.
We cover for one another as needed.

Thank you for clarifying this. The way I originally read your post made it seem like they were taking their own initiative to go up.

We, too, process in with the priest (although I am not too keen on this practice, but, that’s for another thread). We are also pretty good about substituting when the need arises.

In reference to your latest post, we, too, practice with empty chalices. I have also suggested that we rotate the purificator, almost similar to the manner in which the older ringers in the antique washtubs were used. I told my pastor and the group that if we don’t rotate the purificator, it kind of defeats the purose of having one because you are using the same spot on the cloth to clean the portion of the chalice that has been sipped. My pastor agreed and made a point of it to the rest of the group. I also taught them how to rotate the chalice as well. It’s a trick I learned at my old parish in Austin.

 

[DebChris]

Thank you for clarifying this. The way I originally read your post made it seem like they were taking their own initiative to go up.

We, too, process in with the priest (although I am not too keen on this practice, but, that’s for another thread). We are also pretty good about substituting when the need arises.

In reference to your latest post, we, too, practice with empty chalices. I have also suggested that we rotate the purificator, almost similar to the manner in which the older ringers in the antique washtubs were used. I told my pastor and the group that if we don’t rotate the purificator, it kind of defeats the purose of having one because you are using the same spot on the cloth to clean the portion of the chalice that has been sipped. My pastor agreed and made a point of it to the rest of the group. I also taught them how to rotate the chalice as well. It’s a trick I learned at my old parish in Austin.

The way I was taught was to use a different part of the purificator and rotating as necessary so that the same spot on the purificator is never used. After wiping the chalice, rotate the chalice so that the next person never receives from the same spot as the person before him/her.
In the larger parish, only the lector processed in with the priest carrying the Lectionary, a procedure I think is no longer allowed.
I also belonged to a different large parish for awhile. In this second parish, the lector took his/her place on the altar. It is a chair off to the side.
In my current small parish, the only time the lector sits on the altar is during the psalm when sung between readings. Starting in January, I will be lectoring at 8am per my pastor’s request. There is no music at this early Mass.