Spying or Responsible Parenting?

[Acolyte]

Unfortunately, the law does not always read it that way. Parents are usually held responsible to make a reasonable amount of effort to know if their child poses a threat to others or is engaging in criminal behavior.

More to the point, however, the law isn’t going to console us when our child is harmed because we were asleep at the wheel. If we give our children so much privacy that we give them “enough rope to hang themselves with,” as the saying goes, we’re going to hold ourselves responsible when our failures gives our child enough room to make a very bad and harmful decision that is foreseeable for someone in their age group.

“Well, yes, other people’s children do things like that, but we never dreamed our teen would ever do anything like that” doesn’t cut it. Teach your children to think themselves as just as prone to bad-decision-making as anyone else, given the opportunity. They’re human beings.

Consider also that we as parents will have to answer to God concerning the children He entrusted us to raise.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

As I understood it, what TheAmazingGrace said was not mocking people who experience SSA, or the loved ones of those who experience SSA, but was mocking the idea that parents turn their adult daughters into lesbians by not sufficiently controlling their adult daughter’s internet access. Correct me if I’m wrong TheAmazingGrace.

Nope: you hit the nail on the head.

 

[Acolyte]

I have not heard many testimonies from Encourage members, but I have heard from plenty of parents who are proud of their gay and lesbian children, who love their children regardless of their sexual orientation and I deeply respect them for that.

That is a work in progress as I understand it. A book of testimonies will be forthcoming soon. In the mean time, please consider joining the online group and see for yourself.

 

[Andrea_Day]

Hmmm. A thought:

If parents are still responsible for the activities of their adult children, when does that end?

Should parents be required to also spend the night in their married kids’ bedroom to make sure that all–ahem–activity that goes on there is of the sort that’s acceptable in the eyes of the Catholic Church?

Because that’s the logical conclusion to the idea that parents must still monitor their adult children.

One could also argue, as do some rather extreme fundamentalists, that children of any age should never be allowed to toilet, shower, or sleep alone or unwatched because doing so is a near occasion of sin. Me? I say that at some point, you have to let kids grow up, albeit with reasonable precautions. Sure, knock on the door if they’re taking unreasonably long in the bathroom, but also don’t insist that even through their teen years, they can only relieve or bathe themselves in the presence of 1-2 others because being alone is a near occasion of sin.

It’s far better to allow kids to grow up gradually, acquiring responsibility and trust as they demonstrably earn them, than to deny them the ability to mature at all.

(Come to think of it, reading the Bible, riding a bicycle, playing sports, looking at works of great art, and eating whole wheat bread all have the potential to be a near occasion of sin for someone, and yet we–again, within reason–would probably agree that kids should be allowed to do any of those things.)

I agree 100% with monitoring of internet connections in one’s home in general, both to protect people from the nastier side of the web and to protect yourself from some really nasty potentialities. (Hint: never, EVER have an internet connection at home with a nonexistent or simple password.)

Great points.

 

[Andrea_Day]

Consider also that we as parents will have to answer to God concerning the children He entrusted us to raise.

In general, I do not believe parents are held accountable for the sins of their adult children.

 

[Andrea_Day]

That is a work in progress as I understand it. A book of testimonies will be forthcoming soon. In the mean time, please consider joining the online group and see for yourself.

I would be happy to read the book. You should familiarize yourself with the testimonies of people who are happy to be gay and who are happy to have gay children. I don’t think I would be welcome on an online Encourage group.

 

[mommy_k]

Hmmm. A thought:

Should parents be required to also spend the night in their married kids’ bedroom to make sure that all–ahem–activity that goes on there is of the sort that’s acceptable in the eyes of the Catholic

One could also argue, as do some rather extreme fundamentalists, that children of any age should never be allowed to toilet, shower, or sleep alone or unwatched because doing so is a near occasion of sin. Me? I say that at some point, you have to let kids grow up, albeit with reasonable precautions. Sure, knock on the door if they’re taking unreasonably long in the bathroom, but also don’t insist that even through their teen years, they can only relieve or bathe themselves in the presence of 1-2 others because being alone is a near occasion of sin.

Come to think of it, reading the Bible, riding a bicycle, playing sports, looking at works of great art, and eating whole wheat bread all have the potential to be a near occasion of sin for someone, and yet we–again, within reason–would probably agree that kids should be allowed to do any of those things.)
)

Lol…

Yes monitoring kids internet is always with the motivation to be present on their wedding night and to chaperone in the bathroom too. sheesh…

You caught me. Perhaps l frame it and put it on the fridge.

Fwiw, when my children who are paying for the phone and prove a life of responsibility by working for it, and have the experience of knowing would can lead them astray, they can have thier freedom with this.

Only then will I have fulfilled my duty as a mother by building on this foundation.

 

[EasterJoy]

Consider also that we as parents will have to answer to God concerning the children He entrusted us to raise.

Don’t you think we have been taught to liken the love of God Himself for those made in His image and likeness to the love of a parent because there is nothing in our experience which is closer to it? Nothing approaches that Infinite Love, but it has been revealed to us that parental love is the nearest thing we know.

 

[Acolyte]

A couple of points…

1. The fourth commandment has no expiration date. Whether living in the home as adult children or outside the home as adult children, we are called to obedience if called to be so by our parents. If the request does not ask me to sin, even I as a 45 year old with a family of my own should give it serious attention and respect out of love for my parents and ultimately out of love for my God. Even our blessed Lord continued to obey His mother well into adulthood, cf. wedding of Cana.
2. "But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." For the parent. “Care of his own” includes ensuring the safety of his children in this information age. If that means filtering and monitoring whether fully disclosed or not (see above), then so be it. As I previously stated, as a parent I will have to answer to my Lord one day for how I trained up His children. Once they leave my home, my culpability may be lessened but even then I am called to counsel and correct as needed and as possible, cf. Eli.

“I will judge his house forever for the iniquity of his sons” (1 Kg./l Sam. 3:13)

As parents, we do have to watch our policy so as not to drive our children to resentment as some have noted here, but I do think that all of us must strive to swallow a bit of our pride when it comes to working with our parents and consider first what God is asking of us before asking our parents to treat us as gods.

 

[Acolyte]

In general, I do not believe parents are held accountable for the sins of their adult children.

“I will judge his house forever for the iniquity of his sons” (1 Kg./l Sam. 3:13)

 

[Xantippe]

“I will judge his house forever for the iniquity of his sons” (1 Kg./l Sam. 3:13)

That was some pretty spectacular out-of-context interpretation.

The sons that are being talked about are Eli’s sons. They were priests under Eli’s supervision, they were abusing their position, taking sacrifices, fornicating with the women who worked at the temple–and Eli did not take any effective action against them.

Hence, it’s not at all odd that Eli would be judged for his sons’ behavior when he was ostensibly their supervisor.

 

[Acolyte]

That was some pretty spectacular out-of-context interpretation.

The sons that are being talked about are Eli’s sons. They were priests under Eli’s supervision, they were abusing their position, taking sacrifices, fornicating with the women who worked at the temple–and Eli did not take any effective action against them.

Hence, it’s not at all odd that Eli would be judged for his sons’ behavior when he was ostensibly their supervisor.

Whatever helps you get some sleep at night…

As for me, I’ll stick with the interpretation of John A. Hardon, S.J. of blessed memory.

 

[Xantippe]

Whatever helps you get some sleep at night…

As for me, I’ll stick with the interpretation of John A. Hardon, S.J. of blessed memory.

John A. Hardon of blessed memory taught that parents are responsible for the sins of adult children?

How long does this go on? Is my 95-year-old grandfather guilty of the sins of my nearly 70-year-old father, or does that end at some point? I’m 40ish, married, have three children, and haven’t spent longer than a week under my parents’ roof in nearly two decades–are my parents responsible for my sins?

You are taking verses specific to a very particular situation and attempting them to apply them generally in a way that does not work. Where, for example, in the New Testament do you find this teaching?

 

[Acolyte]

John A. Hardon of blessed memory taught that parents are responsible for the sins of adult children?

How long does this go on? Is my 95-year-old grandfather guilty of the sins of my nearly 70-year-old father, or does that end at some point? I’m 40ish, married, have three children, and haven’t spent longer than a week under my parents’ roof in nearly two decades–are my parents responsible for my sins?

You are taking verses specific to a very particular situation and attempting them to apply them generally in a way that does not work. Where, for example, in the New Testament do you find this teaching?

Sigh.

We are called to admonish the sinner regardless of age or relation but especially if they are our very own children. Love of God usurps even love of our children or should anyway. Obviously, if we are unaware of our child’s sin, we would be less culpable but culpable all the same in that we as parents are responsible for the training of our children. If we fail to bring them up as we are called to from baptism onwards we should not be surprised if our children sin well into adulthood bringing grief on us continually, even eternally. Further, “the duty to honor father and mother never ceases in the love and respect they deserve, no matter how old the children may be or even whether the parents are still living or already dead. There is such a thing as love and respect for those who are no longer in this mortal life, because the memory of them survives.” - John A. Hardon, S.J.

 

[EasterJoy]

Sigh.

We are called to admonish the sinner regardless of age or relation but especially if they are our very own children. Love of God usurps even love of our children or should anyway. Obviously, if we are unaware of our child’s sin, we would be less culpable but culpable all the same in that we as parents are responsible for the training of our children. If we fail to bring them up as we are called to from baptism onwards we should not be surprised if our children sin well into adulthood bringing grief on us continually, even eternally. Further, “the duty to honor father and mother never ceases in the love and respect they deserve, no matter how old the children may be or even whether the parents are still living or already dead. There is such a thing as love and respect for those who are no longer in this mortal life, because the memory of them survives.” - John A. Hardon, S.J.

This is no excuse to do the disrespect of denying an adult their privacy. We have the childhood of our children to bring them up. After that, they get what they will freely accept from them, not whatever we want to force on them on the false premise that they have not become autonomous moral agents yet.

CCC 2492* Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons’ private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights. Interference by the media in the private lives of persons engaged in political or public activity is to be condemned to the extent that it infringes upon their privacy and freedom.*

EVERYONE is a big word, but the Catechism teaches that EVERYONE should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons’ private lives. Parents do not have the right to interfere in their children’s lives as much as they like, provided they don’t engender too much resentment. A trespass is a trespass, whether the victim resents it or not.

The spiritual work of mercy of admonishing the sinner is NOT carte blanche to make ourselves into busybodies!! If you want to provide a cell phone or internet service to others only on the condition that the devices belong to you and are completely subject to your surveillance, that’s your business.

Otherwise, you don’t get to eavesdrop on your children for life. When your child is an adult, they approach you for counsel. You do not get to keep them under surveillance and busy yourself with chiding them about their occasions or near occasions of sin. If you have a question about this, I would highly recommend that you consult with your pastor.

Otherwise, I guess we all ought to give our confessors our internet password, so he can admonish us as needed, hmmm?

 

[Xantippe]

This is no excuse to do the disrespect of denying an adult their privacy. We have the childhood of our children to bring them up. After that, they get what they will freely accept from them, not whatever we want to force on them on the false premise that they have not become autonomous moral agents yet.

CCC 2492* Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons’ private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights. Interference by the media in the private lives of persons engaged in political or public activity is to be condemned to the extent that it infringes upon their privacy and freedom.*

EVERYONE is a big word, but the Catechism teaches that EVERYONE should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons’ private lives. Parents do not have the right to interfere in their children’s lives as much as they like, provided they don’t engender too much resentment. A trespass is a trespass, whether the victim resents it or not.

The spiritual work of mercy of admonishing the sinner is NOT carte blanche to make ourselves into busybodies!! If you want to provide a cell phone or internet service to others only on the condition that the devices belong to you and are completely subject to your surveillance, that’s your business.

Otherwise, you don’t get to eavesdrop on your children for life. When your child is an adult, they approach you for counsel. You do not get to keep them under surveillance and busy yourself with chiding them about their occasions or near occasions of sin. If you have a question about this, I would highly recommend that you consult with your pastor.

Otherwise, I guess we all ought to give our confessors our internet password, so he can admonish us as needed, hmmm?

Yes.

Plus, it’s just not going to work, especially as administered as a continual stream of negative remarks to adult children.

There is a grandpa in our family who for many years treated his adult children and in-law to that kind of continual stream of negative remarks. Initially, it might have had some impact, but it was so unrelenting that at some point it became very easy to tune out.

There’s a recommendation (which Easter Joy is also familiar with) that there be a 5:1 ratio of positive to negative remarks to have a decent working relationship with people, either kids, coworkers, employees or whatever. This particular grandpa was very close to having a 1:5 ratio of negative to positive remarks…One of his adult children says that this grandpa is the unhappiest person the adult children knows.

This sort of constantly critical behavior is scandalous as well as ineffective.

I feel like any major moral correction addressed to an adult child probably should be run past the parent’s confessor before deploying it. If it’s that important, it’s worth asking advice before nuking a relationship.

 

[Xantippe]

Another thing–once your adult child is married, admonishing them constantly in front of their spouse can be seen as trespassing into their marriage.

I’ve certainly felt this way about Helpful Grandpa–that his continual advice and corrections were an intrusion into our marriage. (Fortunately, we’ve never had to spend a lot of time together–but that fact that we don’t spend a lot of time with him is not entirely unrelated to his behavior.)

So, if we want our adult children’s marriages to flourish, we need to give them a certain bubble of privacy and freedom to get on with forming the bond to each other, rather than cementing them to their mom and dad.

 

[EasterJoy]

Another thing–once your adult child is married, admonishing them constantly in front of their spouse can be seen as trespassing into their marriage.

I’ve certainly felt this way about Helpful Grandpa–that his continual advice and corrections were an intrusion into our marriage. (Fortunately, we’ve never had to spend a lot of time together–but that fact that we don’t spend a lot of time with him is not entirely unrelated to his behavior.)

So, if we want our adult children’s marriages to flourish, we need to give them a certain bubble of privacy and freedom to get on with forming the bond to each other, rather than cementing them to their mom and dad.

There are few things more important in a MIL or FIL than the ability to bite one’s tongue. Anyone who gets an in-law who does that should prize them as they deserve. They are only doing what is right and being respectful, but considering how difficult it is to do that, anyone who succeeds at it is worthy of gratitude.

 

[Andrea_Day]

A couple of points…

1. The fourth commandment has no expiration date. Whether living in the home as adult children or outside the home as adult children, we are called to obedience if called to be so by our parents. If the request does not ask me to sin, even I as a 45 year old with a family of my own should give it serious attention and respect out of love for my parents and ultimately out of love for my God. Even our blessed Lord continued to obey His mother well into adulthood, cf. wedding of Cana.
2. "But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." For the parent. “Care of his own” includes ensuring the safety of his children in this information age. If that means filtering and monitoring whether fully disclosed or not (see above), then so be it. As I previously stated, as a parent I will have to answer to my Lord one day for how I trained up His children. Once they leave my home, my culpability may be lessened but even then I am called to counsel and correct as needed and as possible, cf. Eli.

“I will judge his house forever for the iniquity of his sons” (1 Kg./l Sam. 3:13)

As parents, we do have to watch our policy so as not to drive our children to resentment as some have noted here, but I do think that all of us must strive to swallow a bit of our pride when it comes to working with our parents and consider first what God is asking of us before asking our parents to treat us as gods.

I would agree with what EasterJoy and Xantippe have said in response.

I will add this:
*
CCC 2217 As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. “Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.” Children should also obey the reasonable directions of their teachers and all to whom their parents have entrusted them. But if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so. As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them. This respect has its roots in the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
*
Also, you mentioned Jesus obeying His mother at Cana–Jesus lived with his parents until He was thirty, so I believe He was living with them at the time of the wedding. And arguably in that scenario Mary was not giving Jesus a command, and Jesus fulfilled her wish out of love rather than obligation.
*
When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”*

 

[EasterJoy]

Also, you mentioned Jesus obeying His mother at Cana–Jesus lived with his parents until He was thirty, so I believe He was living with them at the time of the wedding. And arguably in that scenario Mary was not giving Jesus a command, and Jesus fulfilled her wish out of love rather than obligation.

Even now, Our Lady’s power on our behalf is not her own, but lies in the power of her intercession. She does not command Her Son, but makes His love for us her own.