SS practicing Christian: What do you say Scripture is?

[alwayswill]

Well of course I cannot speak for every Sola Scriptura practicing Christian in the world;
I just want Catholics to know what many SS practicing Christians accept as being true.
Knowing someone’s presuppositions can improve dialog.

To the question:
What do you say Scripture is?
(it’s the characteristics or attributes; not what is Scripture)

• All Scripture is God breathed (pasa graphe theopneustos) .
• A God breathed writing is Scripture the moment it is penned writer move by the Holy Spirit.
• Every line of Scripture is infallible and inerrant (Incapable of error. Contains no errors) .
• Scripture as the word of God is The Truth (not a truth, not merely correct) .
• Anything statement that disagrees with Scripture, by definition must be an error .
• It is impossible for Scripture to disagree with God.
• It is impossible for God to disagree with Scripture.
• God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority.
• Someone misunderstanding God, Jesus, or Scripture does NOT diminish their authority .

Further discussions , no doubt will remind me of other characteristics or attributes of Scripture

Now to the SOLA:

• Are there any other God breathed writings (graphe theopneustos) not included in the Bible*?
  (*that we still have access to)
• Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ?
• Are there any other writings that it is impossible for God to disagree with?
• Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount?

The SS practicing Christian response to those questions are “no”.
I am not expecting Catholics to agree: just l trying to accurately represent the SS view

 

[twf]

If Scripture is your only authority, what authority determines which writings are inspired?

 

[alwayswill]

If Scripture is your only authority, what authority determines which writings are inspired?

wow: off topic on the first reply:
< from the OP>
“To the question:
What do you say Scripture is?
(it’s the characteristics or attributes; not what is Scripture)”

please stay on this topic: ( for at least a little while)
What do you say Scripture is?

 

[spedteacherita]

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 1:14

and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Scripture is the Word of God - The Word of God is Jesus - What a wonderful and tangible way we are given to help us with our walk with Jesus.

 

[Abu]

alwayswill #3
What do you say Scripture is?

Sacred Scripture as the Word of God is, along with Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium established by Christ part of His Church as He mandated:
"You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church" (Matthew 16:18).
As Jesus established His Church with Peter as His Vicar and with Infallibility, only She can legitimately, with His authority, declare which writings form the Sacred Scriptures . She has.

The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

Answer by Fr. John Trigilio (EWTN) on Aug-20-2010
Saint Jerome translated the ancient Greek and Hebrew Old Testment (46 books) and the Greek New Testament (27 books) into Latin and combined them into the first one volume set of Sacred Scriptures called “the Bible”.

 

[jmcrae]

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 1:14

and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Scripture is the Word of God - The Word of God is Jesus - What a wonderful and tangible way we are given to help us with our walk with Jesus.

This passage is not trying to tell us that the Bible is Jesus. The Bible did not yet exist when that was written.

Jesus is the Word that came forth from the mouth of the Father to create all that exists. He is not a book.

 

[alwayswill]

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 1:14

and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Scripture is the Word of God - The Word of God is Jesus - What a wonderful and tangible way we are given to help us with our walk with Jesus.

graphe theopneustos is not the logos

What do you say Scripture ( graphe theopneustos ) is?
What are the characteristics or attributes of Scripture?
Do you agree with the points in the first part of the OP?

 

[Starwarsfan2]

This passage is not trying to tell us that the Bible is Jesus. The Bible did not yet exist when that was written.

Jesus is the Word that came forth from the mouth of the Father to create all that exists. He is not a book.

I don’t think that was his point , his point is the second half of the statement, the bible is given to us from the Logos made fully human to help us , not confusing the two

 

[susanlo]

Now to the SOLA:

• Are there any other God breathed writings (graphe theopneustos) not included in the Bible*?
  (*that we still have access to)
• Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ?
• Are there any other writings that it is impossible for God to disagree with?
• Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount?

The SS practicing Christian response to those questions are “no”.
I am not expecting Catholics to agree: just l trying to accurately represent the SS view

I am wondering what other documents and writings a Catholic would include as meeting these above criteria. I am confused about what is considered an infallible teaching in the Catholic Church. Is there an official list of infallible teachings?

 

[benhur]

Well of course I cannot speak for every Sola Scriptura practicing Christian in the world;
I just want Catholics to know what many SS practicing Christians accept as being true.
Knowing someone’s presuppositions can improve dialog.

To the question:
What do you say Scripture is?
(it’s the characteristics or attributes; not what is Scripture)

• All Scripture is God breathed (pasa graphe theopneustos) .
• A God breathed writing is Scripture the moment it is penned writer move by the Holy Spirit.
• Every line of Scripture is infallible and inerrant (Incapable of error. Contains no errors) .
• Scripture as the word of God is The Truth (not a truth, not merely correct) .
• Anything statement that disagrees with Scripture, by definition must be an error .
• It is impossible for Scripture to disagree with God.
• It is impossible for God to disagree with Scripture.
• God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority.
• Someone misunderstanding God, Jesus, or Scripture does NOT diminish their authority .

Further discussions , no doubt will remind me of other characteristics or attributes of Scripture

Now to the SOLA:

• Are there any other God breathed writings (graphe theopneustos) not included in the Bible*?
  (*that we still have access to)
• Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ?
• Are there any other writings that it is impossible for God to disagree with?
• Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount?

The SS practicing Christian response to those questions are “no”.
I am not expecting Catholics to agree: just l trying to accurately represent the SS view

Scripture is “sufficient”

 

[Abu]

Alwayswill #1
Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ?
Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount?

The glaring errors here are** first **the confusion that the Books of the Sacred Scriptures mysteriously assembled themselves; second, guaranteed themselves as God’s Word; and third, that the Christ, although crystal clear in the Sacred Scriptures, never founded His Church which is His Catholic Church that collected and guaranteed the 46 Books of the O.T. and the 27 Books of the N.T., no more no less, as the Word of God.

susanlo #9
I am wondering what other documents and writings a Catholic would include as meeting these above criteria.

So the real question is: Why do you reject Christ’s clear teaching in founding His Church which gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God?

It is none other than Jesus of Nazareth who proclaimed:
You are Peter and on this rock I will build MY Church." (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the Twelve]. [My emphasis].

Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

It is only to His Catholic Church that God the Son gave His power to teach His Truths until the end of time.

 

[benhur]

[Sacred Scripture as the Word of God is, along with Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium established by Christ part of His Church as He mandated:

Hi Abu,

Scripture is "sola’ or "prima’ , but not “equalos” as you suggest.

Blessings
[/quote]

 

[alwayswill]

The glaring errors here are** first **the confusion that the Books of the Sacred Scriptures mysteriously assembled themselves; second, guaranteed themselves as God’s Word; and third, that the Christ, although crystal clear in the Sacred Scriptures, never founded His Church which is His Catholic Church that collected and guaranteed the 46 Books of the O.T. and the 27 Books of the N.T., no more no less, as the Word of God.

.

First: I didn’t conclude that: not confused
Second: a writing is either God breathed or it is not: No person councils, or panel of experts can ever change that. ( I think Catholics agree on that)
Third: we are not discussing the collecting of all know God breathed writings.

We are discussing what Scripture is, not what is Scripture.

If the only God breathed writings we had were the the actual stones that the Ten Commandments were written upon; I would still believe my points in the OP are true:

And back to the OP
What do you say Scripture is?
What are the attributes and characteristics of Scripture?

 

[Abu]

benhur #10
Scripture is “sufficient”

Such continued lack of knowledge shows itself in the thousands of sects all teaching something different and lacking the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and nearly all of the sacraments, as well as having the confusion on morality – self-satisfied with rejecting Christ’s Church.

#12
Scripture is "sola’ or "prima’ , but not “equalos”

False, as so clearly evident above. Our Lord gave us His Church which gave us the Sacred Scriptures, along with Sacred Tradition and Christ’s Magisterium.

Thus, the confusion and error lies in rejecting the very warnings so clearly enunciated therein:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

Thus it is clear that in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others.

 

[alwayswill]

Such continued lack of knowledge shows itself in the thousands of sects all teaching something different and lacking the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and nearly all of the sacraments, as well as having the confusion on morality – self-satisfied with rejecting Christ’s Church.

.

Does the misunderstanding of God’s word diminish the authority of God’s word?

I would say “no”.

What do you say?

And back to the OP
What do you say Scripture is?
What are the attributes and characteristics of Scripture?

 

[Abu]

Thus we see that:
**DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION DEI VERBUM
CHAPTER III
SACRED SCRIPTURE, ITS INSPIRATION AND DIVINE INTERPRETATION **
11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text). [My emphasis]
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965
Notes:

1. cf. First Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chap. 2 “On Revelation:” Denzinger 1787 (3006); Biblical Commission, Decree of June 18,1915: Denzinger 2180 (3629): EB 420; Holy Office, Epistle of Dec. 22, 1923: EB 499.
2. cf. Pius XII, encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu,” Sept. 30, 1943: A.A.S. 35 (1943) p. 314; Enchiridion Bible. (EB) 556.
3. “In” and “for” man: cf. Heb. 1, and 4, 7; (“in”): 2 Sm. 23,2; Matt.1:22 and various places; (“for”): First Vatican Council, Schema on Catholic Doctrine, note 9: Coll. Lac. VII, 522.
4. Leo XIII, encyclical “Providentissimus Deus,” Nov. 18, 1893: Denzinger 1952 (3293); EB 125.
5. cf. St. Augustine, “Gen. ad Litt.” 2, 9, 20L 34, 270-271; Epistle 82, 3: PL 33, 277: CSEL 34, 2, p. 354. St. Thomas, “On Truth,” Q. 12, A. 2, C.Council of Trent, session IV, Scriptural Canons: Denzinger 783 (1501). Leo XIII, encyclical “Providentissimus Deus:” EB 121, 124, 126-127. Pius XII, encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu:” EB 539.

 

[alwayswill]

Thus we see that:
**DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION DEI VERBUM
CHAPTER III
SACRED SCRIPTURE, ITS INSPIRATION AND DIVINE INTERPRETATION **
11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text). [My emphasis]
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965
Notes:

1. cf. First Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chap. 2 “On Revelation:” Denzinger 1787 (3006); Biblical Commission, Decree of June 18,1915: Denzinger 2180 (3629): EB 420; Holy Office, Epistle of Dec. 22, 1923: EB 499.
2. cf. Pius XII, encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu,” Sept. 30, 1943: A.A.S. 35 (1943) p. 314; Enchiridion Bible. (EB) 556.
3. “In” and “for” man: cf. Heb. 1, and 4, 7; (“in”): 2 Sm. 23,2; Matt.1:22 and various places; (“for”): First Vatican Council, Schema on Catholic Doctrine, note 9: Coll. Lac. VII, 522.
4. Leo XIII, encyclical “Providentissimus Deus,” Nov. 18, 1893: Denzinger 1952 (3293); EB 125.
5. cf. St. Augustine, “Gen. ad Litt.” 2, 9, 20L 34, 270-271; Epistle 82, 3: PL 33, 277: CSEL 34, 2, p. 354. St. Thomas, “On Truth,” Q. 12, A. 2, C.Council of Trent, session IV, Scriptural Canons: Denzinger 783 (1501). Leo XIII, encyclical “Providentissimus Deus:” EB 121, 124, 126-127. Pius XII, encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu:” EB 539.

Thank you:
based on your understating of what Scripture is;
(Its characteristics and attributes)
do you agree with these following statements?

• All Scripture is God breathed (pasa graphe theopneustos) .

• A God breathed writing is Scripture the moment it is penned writer move by the Holy Spirit.

• Every line of Scripture is infallible and inerrant (Incapable of error. Contains no errors) .

• Scripture as the word of God is The Truth (not a truth, not merely correct) .

• Anything statement that disagrees with Scripture, by definition must be an error .

• It is impossible for Scripture to disagree with God.

• It is impossible for God to disagree with Scripture.

• God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority.

• Someone misunderstanding God, Jesus, or Scripture does NOT diminish their authority .

 

[benhur]

Such continued lack of knowledge shows itself in the thousands of sects all teaching something different and lacking the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and nearly all of the sacraments, as well as having the confusion on morality – self-satisfied with rejecting Christ’s Church.

Hi Abu,

Scripture says she is sufficient. Scripture also says there is a “church”, and offices, and giftings, not to mention the unction of the Holy Ghost. Whether it is 30,000 denominations or your One Holy Church, they are all to be bound by scripture.

False, as so clearly evident above. Our Lord gave us His Church which gave us the Sacred Scriptures, along with Sacred Tradition and Christ’s Magisterium.

So you deny scriptura is "prima’ as noted by other Catholics ? (“The few denominations that are close to us actually practice “Prima scriptura”. And that is sort of what Catholicism practices. So we aren’t all that far apart from that faction of protestant Christendom.” post # 135 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13753716#post13753716

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them”

Correct. The O and C and P churches have their good, bad, and ugly, per scripture.

Thus it is clear that in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others

God works thru man. Can God stand without man? Are we then equal to God, in that pedestal arrangement ? Of course they are all “connected” but stool is the wrong analogy. God breathed and inspired are both good but not equal.

Blessings

 

[Abu]

benhur #16
So you deny scriptura is "prima’ as noted by other Catholics ? (“The few denominations that are close to us actually practice “Prima scriptura”. And that is sort of what Catholicism practices. So we aren’t all that far apart from that faction of protestant Christendom.” post # 135 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…6#post13753716

The myopia in choosing to quote those who express mere opinions as against the Catholic Church’s doctrine explains the continued confusion and failure to assent to the reality of what Christ’s Church actually teaches, like those cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose.

Thus the Catholic Church’s teaching is very clear – in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others.

 

[susanlo]

Thus the Catholic Church’s teaching is very clear – in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others.

What are the contents of Sacred Tradition? Is it recorded in certain documents? I am not familiar with Catholic teaching, but I have some people who are close to me who are. They aren’t sure how to explain it.