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PutresOmega
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This has been my experience too. It is part of what lead me to consider things like sexual addiction to be the culprit rather than the orientation. It seems a rare change and I have run into people sent to the child conversion camps who had horrible experiences and got really messed up. I have also met some that have had good results. Considering 12 Step programs seem to be a big part of these recoveries, the evidence seems to corroborate my hypothesis. It is part of why I dislike the portion of the LGBT community that is adamant that no one can or should change. I have met a number of men who have sex compulsively and who use it as a means of distancing themselves from others so there is a lot of negative stuff attached to some of this.
That is on the male side, though. Your views will be leagues different from mine. Cool hair by the way.
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naomily
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Haha thanks! I wish my work let me shave my head like that, but alas.
I’ll live vicariously through Natalie Dormer.I think **everyone **has the potential to become addicted to sex or use sex compulsively. This isn’t particularly central to homosexuals any more than heterosexuals.
I mean, if a gay person approached me and really wanted to change and was willing to attend a “conversation camp” to do so, I’d obviously support them in such a personal choice. But in my experience, such places are not only ineffective but can sustain lifelong damage. I’d much rather LGBTQ* individuals learn to accept themselves as they are (whether that includes celibacy or not) than try and change their orientation and perhaps entering into a false heterosexual marriage. That doesn’t seem fair to either partner.
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SoulSolace
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PutresOmega
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Oh? Whoops, I thought it was you in the avatar. My apologies. Still, I do understand the feeling.Haha thanks! I wish my work let me shave my head like that, but alas.
I think **everyone **has the potential to become addicted to sex or use sex compulsively. This isn’t particularly central to homosexuals any more than heterosexuals.
I mean, if a gay person approached me and really wanted to change and was willing to attend a “conversation camp” to do so, I’d obviously support them in such a personal choice. But in my experience, such places are not only ineffective but can sustain lifelong damage. I’d much rather LGBTQ* individuals learn to accept themselves as they are (whether that includes celibacy or not) than try and change their orientation and perhaps entering into a false heterosexual marriage. That doesn’t seem fair to either partner.
As far as your second point, I would somewhat disagree. In my experience with addicts in my own family and the ones I spoke to with sexual addictions, it is a road that can only end in self destruction or recovery. For example, I have a buddy whose girlfriend of ten or so years cheated on him and it wrecked him. He started drinking a lot. He eventually got past it and the drinking and mess subsided. For addicts, though, that compulsion never ends and demands greater and greater amounts of the “drug” for the same pay out. For sex, this means that compulsive sex with one partner can become sex with many partners, then sex at work or in public (with the edge of risk), and then more dangerous and fetishistic activities that separate them further and further from intimacy and turn sex into something regretful and nasty. Most will never approach the darkest depths of depravity that addicts do. I have had to play the grown up to the addicts of my own family enough here and there over the years to know and be thankful that most are spared that illness.
That said I fully agree with your last point on recovery programs. If an adult is adamant about going I would support it though would be skeptical all the same for their own benefit.
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Gertabelle
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If I’m understanding you correctly, then I definitely had both the sexual and affectional, as you say, drive in my SSA and lesbian relationships. Yet here I am “cured” and living a pretty darn joyous and wonderful life.
So what does that make of your “research” and well-described (albeit, completely unverified) claims?I had to laugh when I read this, sorry. It’s not like those of us who change orientations are hanging out with the GLBTT community! My lesbian friends at the time of my marriage to a man just called me “bisexual.” By the time I realized I no longer had any SSA feelings or desires, I was long-gone from those friendships, living a 2-hour drive from that old stomping ground, and keeping my lack of SSA to myself. I hadn’t returned to the Church yet, so this wasn’t something I had any feelings about one way or the other – I just noticed it with some surprise.
Gertie
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PutresOmega
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Well, there are a lot of factors that I briefly touched on that will make your experience different from most I ran into as a guy. You are a woman and women experience sexual and affectional attraction differently from men. Women tend to be more fluid. Perhaps you were bisexual the whole time and had a shift in your orientation slowly one way to the other across the spectrum, naturally. That would be my guess as that is what happened to me. My orientation changed later in life following nearly dying. Could be an anomaly in your brain that happened or fixed itself. Nothing you present seems to counterbalance the testimony of people from these camps who didn’t want to be there and suffered abuse that I have talked to.If I’m understanding you correctly, then I definitely had both the sexual and affectional, as you say, drive in my SSA and lesbian relationships. Yet here I am “cured” and living a pretty darn joyous and wonderful life.
In short, your experience is an anomaly. An exception but not the rule.
Also, I fail to see the charity in attacking me and my own research with the air quotes and the flippant sarcasm. For all we know, you could actually be a straight man who just made up your whole story and account to troll and spread some fake story about your so-called conversion. You could be a paid shill trying to sell conversion therapy, like some in the LGBT community claim. And how can we know if your current relationship is joyous and happy? For all we know your husband gets drunk and beats you and the Stockholm Syndrome is causing you to present it in a better light.
We both have unverified claims, it seems. The difference is I am willing to accept yours at face value and as if you were presenting the truth, granting you some leeway. Leeway that I would ask you grant me in turn, please.
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Rau
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While the poster (PutresOmega) seems to be excessively dogmatic, to be fair, I think the poster was referring to a process of securing a “cure” eg. by way of therapy. Your experience seems to be far different - there was no process of seeking a cure/undertaking of therapy - you just found yourself to be changed.Originally Posted by PutresOmega
I think if the drive is sexual it might be changed but it that sexual drive is corroborated with an affectional drive to love the same sex then a “cure” is not only impossible but is actively and grievously harmful to the individual being “cured”.
If I’m understanding you correctly, then I definitely had both the sexual and affectional, as you say, drive in my SSA and lesbian relationships. Yet here I am “cured” and living a pretty darn joyous and wonderful life.
Gertie
I would be very interested to hear about the evolution of your pre-existing friendships with other gay persons immediately after your change.
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Gertabelle
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I have only a few friends now from that time in my life. Their responses range from the joyful (the friend I knew from college who prayed for me, though we didn’t see each other or communicate from the time I started living out my SSA to the time of my reversion to the Church some 14-15 years later!), to the “oh, okay” (my childhood friend that I married!), to the “wow, um, okay” (a couple of my lesbian friends who knew me as “lesbian,” then “bisexual,” and then “straight” and Catholic!).
I love reading your posts!
First of all, the name’s Gertie, Gert, Gertabelle – depending on how I sign it – but never, oh please never, Gertrude.
No offense to the beautiful St. Gertrude the Great, or the lovely Mother Gertrude, OSB, that I once knew. For the sake of full disclosure, as they say, Gertabelle is a screen name, and I sometimes think it makes me sound really, really OLD. OK, I am getting older – 46 – but I think “Gertie” makes it sound like I’m some 92-year-old granny in a rocking chair. 
Oh dear, I shouldn’t post so late… how I do blather on…
Anyway, besides telling you how glad I am that you’re posting on these threads, I also wanted to clarify what you and Rau are now calling my “miraculous” cure. Of course, all good things come from the hand of God, so I know that my no longer having to deal with SSA is from Him.
But I also know that my life went through tremendous upheaval at the time of this change in me. My biological clock was ticking pretty loud – I wanted a child SO MUCH. My “wife” at the time couldn’t get behind it really, even though she’d said she wanted to be a mom when we first started dating. In early 2001, the desire for a child was growing a lot stronger, and I had even mentioned to a male friend (whom I’d known since childhood) that I wanted to have a child – and joked that he could help the process…
Then in March of that year, my dad had a heart attack and nearly died. The medical staff brought him back from death, they placed him in the CCU (cardiac care unit) where he lingered for six weeks and then died. At the same time, two of my three dogs died – including the one who was my “pal” for everything. That was a week before the end of the school year.
I spent a lot of time that summer at a small, really rundown cabin that I owned in the mountains – I just needed the silence and isolation. Well, it’s a long story, but by the time the new school year was getting started, I was a different person inside. I was seeing my “wife” for the person she was – immature to a fault, manipulative, neurotic, and a hoarder. My desire for a child trumped all, and I knew there was no way I would let that woman parent any child of mine.
Three months later I ended that relationship. And – short version – the following June I married my childhood friend. I guess you could say at that point, probably during that previous summer actually, I had gone from SSA exclusively to bisexual.
My marriage was all right – nothing terribly wrong, but nothing great about it either. After four years (and the birth of my amazing son) my childhood friend told me he didn’t want to be married, not to me, not to anyone. By then, I was exclusively OSA.
My point in writing all this is that it wasn’t so much a miraculous cure, as in one moment it’s there, the next it’s gone. While I thank God for His grace in this, I also see how He worked through the ordinary events and longings in my life – my father’s death, my longing for a child – to literally heal what was out of balance, if you will, in my life.
And one last thing… I hear in your words sometimes, my own voice from the past, specifically how you’re a lesbian and always will be a lesbian.
That may be true. It may not be true. Always is a long time… But I do agree with your assessment of conversion therapy (as opposed to general psychotherapy) as being dangerous. I lost my dearest friend to suicide just three months after undergoing that sort of therapy. That is a pain that is always with me
God bless you, dear one!
Gertie
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naomily
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I didn’t realize that as a Catholic I was required to cut all ties with my friends and with a community that has consistently supported me throughout my faith journey. I am not “hanging out,” I am finding comfort and help with people who understand many of my struggles. Friendship is not a crime nor does it undercut my convictions.
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Gertabelle
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Please forgive me if my skepticism came off as overly harsh. I am “all-but-dissertation” in a doctorate program, and that kind of study makes one, perhaps, overly skeptical of people who claim to have done research and then present it without any backing whatsoever. It is not that I think you are trying to pawn off your own opinions as the result of scholarly long-term study. But I do think it wise for readers to use caution and common sense when someone reports of the results of research without any empirical proof of that research.
I’m not asking for your credentials, but a few resources would be nice…
As someone who’s read tons of past and current research in a number of fields, I am a little shocked that your presumption that I “slighted” your research led to such a tirade against me. Don’t get me wrong. I am not the least bit offended by anything you said. It actually made me laugh to read about my being a straight man, or even having a current relationship (I’ve been divorced since 2007), or selling conversion therapy (my dearest friend committed suicide after undergoing such therapy in 1990).
But as you say, we are both making claims, and I am not willing to “come out of the closet” with any identifying information. The difference, in my opinion, is that your response is so strong and uncalled for – at least from my own academic standpoint – that it appears my exceptional experience, or at the least my unwillingness to take your claims at face value, has upset you. This makes your claims seem less reliable, not more
God bless you!
Gertie
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Gertabelle
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My sincerest apologies! I truly didn’t mean my comment that way, but I can see how you would have “heard” it the way you did. Please forgive me.
My comment was from my own experience and not meant to communicate anything about your own choices. Even when I married a man, but while I was still considering myself bisexual, I was pulling away from the GLBTT communities that had once been my home and source of support. My decision was based on my own life experiences in that moment – a hard break-up with lots of mutual friends, and a strong desire for solitude brought about by my father’s death. When I married a man and we lived 2 hours from those former communities, I let the relationships die. I regret that now, but my world was in upheaval and it was hard to reach out.
I also have a strong hesitation to let anyone in the GLBTT community know my history. I have had too many people try to explain it away – you weren’t really a lesbian (well, they sure took it for granted I was when they invited me to sing and perform for their galas, marches, rallies, etc.), you had a brain anomaly (that’s a new one tonight), you’re just bisexual and don’t want to admit it… I’m a mom now, and really don’t have the time or energy to be fending off that sort of thing all the time from people who are supposed to be friends.
So my point was about ME – I don’t hang around the centers, choirs, events anymore, and I’ve heard from at least one other former SSA person that they don’t either. So maybe the fact that you hang out there doesn’t automatically mean that you’d know whether some of us “switched teams” as they say. It was not a criticism, honestly, just an observation that the reason you may not hear about such things is because those of us who experience this change no longer hang around in those communities.
Goodness, it’s too late and it’s taking me 1000s of words more to say something simple than it should.
Please forgive me. And I am so thankful that you are able to maintain these long friendships – I only have two from the 100s of women and men I knew back in the day.
God bless you!
Gertie
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SMGS127
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Oops; I totally misread your nameI love reading your posts!
First of all, the name’s Gertie, Gert, Gertabelle – depending on how I sign it – but never, oh please never, Gertrude.
.I suppose what I meant by a “miracle” is not that God instituted a change in you instantaneously, but rather that God instituted a change in you even though you did not seek one.Anyway, besides telling you how glad I am that you’re posting on these threads, I also wanted to clarify what you and Rau are now calling my “miraculous” cure. Of course, all good things come from the hand of God, so I know that my no longer having to deal with SSA is from Him.
But I also know that my life went through tremendous upheaval at the time of this change in me. My biological clock was ticking pretty loud – I wanted a child SO MUCH. My “wife” at the time couldn’t get behind it really, even though she’d said she wanted to be a mom when we first started dating. In early 2001, the desire for a child was growing a lot stronger, and I had even mentioned to a male friend (whom I’d known since childhood) that I wanted to have a child – and joked that he could help the process…
Then in March of that year, my dad had a heart attack and nearly died. The medical staff brought him back from death, they placed him in the CCU (cardiac care unit) where he lingered for six weeks and then died. At the same time, two of my three dogs died – including the one who was my “pal” for everything. That was a week before the end of the school year.
I spent a lot of time that summer at a small, really rundown cabin that I owned in the mountains – I just needed the silence and isolation. Well, it’s a long story, but by the time the new school year was getting started, I was a different person inside. I was seeing my “wife” for the person she was – immature to a fault, manipulative, neurotic, and a hoarder. My desire for a child trumped all, and I knew there was no way I would let that woman parent any child of mine.
Three months later I ended that relationship. And – short version – the following June I married my childhood friend. I guess you could say at that point, probably during that previous summer actually, I had gone from SSA exclusively to bisexual.
My marriage was all right – nothing terribly wrong, but nothing great about it either. After four years (and the birth of my amazing son) my childhood friend told me he didn’t want to be married, not to me, not to anyone. By then, I was exclusively OSA.
My point in writing all this is that it wasn’t so much a miraculous cure, as in one moment it’s there, the next it’s gone. While I thank God for His grace in this, I also see how He worked through the ordinary events and longings in my life – my father’s death, my longing for a child – to literally heal what was out of balance, if you will, in my life.
And one last thing… I hear in your words sometimes, my own voice from the past, specifically how you’re a lesbian and always will be a lesbian.
That may be true. It may not be true. Always is a long time… But I do agree with your assessment of conversion therapy (as opposed to general psychotherapy) as being dangerous. I lost my dearest friend to suicide just three months after undergoing that sort of therapy. That is a pain that is always with me
I have to say that I share your desire for children. I’ve wanted kids ever since I was really little, and part of my denial phase from about 17 - 21 was because I couldn’t imagine living a life where I didn’t get to be a Mom. I’ve talked to priests and they’ve told me that I could potentially adopt as a single parent licitly in the Church, but…that would be too difficult for me. I don’t have, nor do I think I will ever have, the financial and emotional stability to be able to earn enough money for an entire family and spend enough emotional time on the family. And if I were to engage in a romantic friendship as has been discussed in multiple threads on this forum, the Church would almost certainly not allow me to adopt, even if the relationship itself was licit, due to a multitude of factors (public scandal, potential misunderstanding of the relationship by the child, etc.).
However, I know I can’t achieve what is asked of me if I entered into a marriage. The thought of having sex twice a week on average for my life that meant nothing to me but exercise…I can’t do it. And I can’t even achieve any real romantic connection with men. So, unless God institutes in me what He did for you, I have no real hope for kids, which I’ve accepted.
But barring Divine intervention, I am a lesbian. I see no reason to hurt myself by hating attractions that aren’t even sinful. I enjoy being around women, dating women, emotionality with women. I have no problem admitting that, and it does help me connect better to female friends too. When I first converted, I thought “okay, I’m just going to push this all away from my mind.” I went through a secondary denial phase that was much shorter, dating a guy for about 3 months, and while it was nice, it wasn’t…special. It made me feel like I had a cool close guy friend who showered me with attention and hung out with me all the time. Once again, I was doing physicality for him, not for me.
After that, I realized repression wasn’t good. I needed to figure something out, and that’s what I’ve been doing the last year. But I accept everything about myself now, including my attraction to women, and I feel much better than when I pushed everything away as “evil.” I’m trying to rekindle old relationships with my lesbian friends I had stopped putting effort into as part of my repression. So I suppose our paths ended in two different places, and I hope you’re happy with where yours is at (and with your wonderful son!)
God bless you Gertabelle,
~ SMGS
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Gertabelle
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:hug3:
I have to say, having read so much of what you’ve shared, that you seem to have waaaaay more courage than I ever did when I “came out” in my mid-20s. I created a dichotomy in my mind that meant I either had to leave the Church and be a lesbian, or stay in the Church and repress everything that I was. I pray Our Good Lord continue showering you with His grace to live as a chaste woman who knows who she is!
Our paths have landed us at two different points, as you say, in the present, but as I’m 46, and I’m assuming you may be in your 20s, this should be expected! Yes I am joyful, and my life is full and challenging (which I love) – and I pray for you that you are also experiencing joy and God’s blessings!
“The glory of God is man fully alive!” ~ St. Irenaeus
I truly applaud your courage and am in awe of your choices. You are showing far greater love and spiritual maturity than I had in my 20s. Hang in there and keep fighting the good fight, as St. Paul says.
God bless you!
Gertie
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Rin
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We should remember that many people who identify as either completely gay or completely straight are to some extent bisexual, but do not identify as such, because bisexuals pull the short (or was it long, never remember) straw socially, be it in LGB circles or in straight circles.
So yes, some people may seemingly change. Sometimes the bisexual feelings may even be repressed (obvious reasons in straight, especially male, circles, almost just as obvious in LGB circles), and they don’t even realize they have them themselves. So in the case earlier in this thread when someone managed to grow an interest for their opposite sex, but were still attracted mostly to their own, my personal hypothesis is that they were like that all along; though perhaps not consciously aware of it.
In bisexual individuals (who are far more common than we believe, if we include slight attraction - the “popular” term really just includes those who are clearly attracted to both sexes), orientation may be somewhat fluid. However, fluid doesn’t equal malleable. This is why I’m opposed to reparative therapy, even if there is such a potential.
And for those who absolutely aren’t bisexual, such therapy would be very harmful - definitely not something I’d recommend. This is why I speak against it, and why I see being gay (or straight) as unchangeable - once you are on the bisexual spectrum, however, things may be a bit more fluid. But still not something I’d entrust to a “therapist”.
(Note: I’m aware such therapy was not a theme in the OP - I’m just mentioning it to point out the difference between “fluid” and “malleable”.)
So yes, some people may seemingly change. Sometimes the bisexual feelings may even be repressed (obvious reasons in straight, especially male, circles, almost just as obvious in LGB circles), and they don’t even realize they have them themselves. So in the case earlier in this thread when someone managed to grow an interest for their opposite sex, but were still attracted mostly to their own, my personal hypothesis is that they were like that all along; though perhaps not consciously aware of it.
In bisexual individuals (who are far more common than we believe, if we include slight attraction - the “popular” term really just includes those who are clearly attracted to both sexes), orientation may be somewhat fluid. However, fluid doesn’t equal malleable. This is why I’m opposed to reparative therapy, even if there is such a potential.
And for those who absolutely aren’t bisexual, such therapy would be very harmful - definitely not something I’d recommend. This is why I speak against it, and why I see being gay (or straight) as unchangeable - once you are on the bisexual spectrum, however, things may be a bit more fluid. But still not something I’d entrust to a “therapist”.
(Note: I’m aware such therapy was not a theme in the OP - I’m just mentioning it to point out the difference between “fluid” and “malleable”.)
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PutresOmega
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Oh whoops. I mistook you for simply attacking me with that post so responded in kind but you have made an excellent point here. I totally forgot to back up anything I said. It is easy to forget that most people don’t really look into this stuff and assume pre-existing knowledge as if it were common knowledge. I apologize for misreading your intent.
For stories about ex gays, if you are alright with spending some money, there are books by some famous ex-gay proponents like Joe Dallas that go into details on their personal stories. His “Desires in Conflict” is one such book, if I recall right, where he discusses some of his previous experiences. His early sexual experiences involved sexual abuse at the hands of middle aged men and a lot of promiscuity.
If not looking to spend money then you can find some stories on the internet as well. In this case, one of the better sites for these is peoplecanchange.com/stories/index.php (I link directly to the Our Stories section here so you can read the available ones - they also have other resources below). The story of Rich Wyler: A Change of Heart and Dan: My Journey to Peace are pretty good and detailed. That is where I got the 12 Step and addiction connection. They refer to it as addiction in their own words. There is a lot of links to junk science and NARTH but it is one of the few places to find stories that come from ex-gays themselves I have found.
When I use the word “research” I mean that I mainly read the testimony of ex-gay people themselves with the benefit of the doubt that they are not liars or paid shills. When I made the generalizations about them it was based on a commonality in many of these stories. One always seems to be shame and selfishness in the relationships. It isn’t me so much judging them as making an observation based on their own testimony where I can get it.
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Bookcat
Guest
Here is the source that comes highly recommended in the Church and by Catholic Answers:
couragerc.net/
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naomily
Guest
Don’t worry, I’m sorry I jumped down your throat!! I can be a little touchy about such issues— I told a friend from my parish’s choir that I had gone to my local pride parade and she very seriously asked me to confess it.
There’s a real effort within the Church to separate itself from any contact with the LGBTQ* community and that to view it as anything but a godless gay agenda hellbent on destroying families is heresy. That, in my opinion, is where the “SSA” term comes from. It’s feeble attempt to keep LGBTQ* Catholics from their community and from other resources. This is a shame! There’s a lot of evil in the “gay agenda” (and I could say there’s a lot of evil in some Catholics’ agendas 
) but a lot of good and a lot of support. How sad that young people with same sex feelings are cut off from their community, brethren, and history!Anyway, no hard feelings at all! I am very glad you’re in a better place. Straight or gay, no one deserves to suffer.
You may be right that their are cases of changing orientation that I just don’t know about. Sexuality is fluid, as they say!
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Elizium23
Guest
You realize that “Pride” is one of the seven deadly sins?
The reason that the Church and her members need distance from so-called “LGBT communities” is because by their nature they affirm and condone and encourage sin. They follow a Satan-inspired agenda of leading people away from the Truth and into perdition. Sure, you can find love and support there, because the best way to administer poison is to coat it with sugar.
The Church has thousands upon thousands of communities in which you will find love, support, and Truth. Why not choose one or more of those communities to join and make a difference while sanctifying your soul, rather than being dragged down into a pit of “affirmation” and “inclusivity”? Six years ago, I asked God what else I could do for His Church and He answered with, “The Knights of Columbus”. I was extremely reluctant because this seemed like the last place I would fit in. I had not approached an all-men’s activity since my high school days. Yet I made my First Degree and I found fellowship with men who are now helping me get to Heaven. I found opportunities for service to my parish and community. I found great support for my pro-life activities, and I find that the Knights support the Church just as the Church supports the Knights.
Perhaps you should consider joining Courage. Or some other community which can be supported by the Church. Because right now, you are asking for trouble with the near occasion of sin. And that is no way to get to Heaven.
The reason that the Church and her members need distance from so-called “LGBT communities” is because by their nature they affirm and condone and encourage sin. They follow a Satan-inspired agenda of leading people away from the Truth and into perdition. Sure, you can find love and support there, because the best way to administer poison is to coat it with sugar.
The Church has thousands upon thousands of communities in which you will find love, support, and Truth. Why not choose one or more of those communities to join and make a difference while sanctifying your soul, rather than being dragged down into a pit of “affirmation” and “inclusivity”? Six years ago, I asked God what else I could do for His Church and He answered with, “The Knights of Columbus”. I was extremely reluctant because this seemed like the last place I would fit in. I had not approached an all-men’s activity since my high school days. Yet I made my First Degree and I found fellowship with men who are now helping me get to Heaven. I found opportunities for service to my parish and community. I found great support for my pro-life activities, and I find that the Knights support the Church just as the Church supports the Knights.
Perhaps you should consider joining Courage. Or some other community which can be supported by the Church. Because right now, you are asking for trouble with the near occasion of sin. And that is no way to get to Heaven.
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SMGS127
Guest
So charitable
.Actually, no. They encourage you to be yourself, however “yourself” is. That includes celibacy, if you so choose. It’s a place to be comfortable in your own skin and not be judged for who you are.
COURAGE endorses NARTH, which immediately makes it off-limits to many gays and lesbians who don’t approve of the intrinsic moral evils found within NARTH. There isn’t an appropriate gay or lesbian community within the Church at the current moment.
Also, being in the community is not a “near occasion of sin,” unless you consider gays and lesbians to be completely incapable of controlling themselves whenever they find someone mutually attractive. That’s like saying Mass is a near occasion of sin for straight people because there are a lot of straight people of the opposite sex there.
Naomily, good for you. Know that there are many Catholics who understand why you’re in the community still.
- Status