SSPX and 9/11

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Who moved JPII to kiss the Koran? God?
Ummm…not part of the conversation.
How do you know they are lies?
Jews not killed in gas chambers = Lie
9/11 committed by the US Government = Lie
intrinsically invalid
Interesting new term you created. According to you they’re invalid. According to the Pope they are not. He’s the Supreme Legislator, you’re not. Disagree at your own peril.
Ilicitly not sacrilegiously. Sacrilege would be giving Communion to non-Catholics.
Wrong. Consecrating the Body of Christ against the express command of the Body of Christ is sacriligious.
Should we really apply that same standard to JPII?
Yes. He did not violate any divine or canon laws. Williamson did.
Unless of course it’s invalid.
Again, you have set yourself as an authority above the Pope and the Church and you declare that their lawful judgement is in error. Not a good idea.
But you don’t judge justly. And remember what Christ said about that.
I stand by my judgement that Williamson’s actions are evil. I have good company, like the Church. You have only schismatics.
I beg to differ. They are “in communion” with the Holy Father and the Local ordinary who has been given permission to do these sorts of things.
Are you so brilliantly uninformed as to believe that the Holy Father and the Bishop have given permission to celebrate “Clown Masses”?
Better yet, the Pope could right the wrongs of his predecessors.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for Pope Benedict to go crawling to the schismatic bishops.
He’s already way ahead of the curve.
Yes. Ahead of the curve on the highway to hell. I heard he’s an AC/DC fan. He does nothing for tradition except give them a bad name by his association.
 
He did address it although probably not in the interviews that I will never own because I wouldn’t give a dime to Bishop Williamson until he reunites with Rome.
The bishop doesn’t take any money for his interviews. But since you’ve demonstrated nothing but prejudice on the matter, I shouldn’t be surprised that you don’t know that. Just as you falsely accuse the bishop of not being united to Rome instead of the truth being that he is unjustly persecuted by Rome.
I’m not really sure why you’re bringing up these interviews anyway. Do they have to do with his theories over and above what he’s stated in talks and in his letters.
They are more comprehensive and flesh out ideas that are expressed in the letters. They clarify misunderstandings that people who overreact and give knee jerk responses imbibe in.
His letters are on-line and he has responded to the interview without ever saying the statements were false so I’m not really sure why I need to hear these interviews unless we’re changing the subject again.
No. You’re still referring to thirdhand references in “Wikipedia” and not an actual interview.

It’s so obvious that you WANT to remain willfully ignorant. It’s like how bishop Sheen described people’s overreactions are usually representing a conflict within the person and they transfer it to the Church or society or in your case, Bishop Williamson. Probably the fact that he states the truth about the situation in the Church a little to clearly makes you uncomfortable.
I haven’t demanded anything. I presented the fact. You’ve decided it’s questionable. I have not.
Your pursuit of the truth and inquisitiveness is laudable.
Also, I hardly lose sleep over Bishop Williamson’s whacky statements and letters.
The problem is you’re still asleep. Bishop W tends to wake people up.
I think it’s funny that you’ve switched from claiming that they haven’t been seen in context to they just didn’t happen. Which is it?
I haven’t claimed that they didn’t happen. I’m simply demonstrating that the quotes are part of a hatchet job. One that is more convenient for you to believe to keep you in your comfort zone.
A counter argument to what? Again, if someone says the sky is green with red polka dots, I don’t waste a whole lot of time trying to make a counter argument.
Straw Man. You assume that what the bishop states is equivalent to your green sky with polka dots. That’s your attempt at poisoning the well.
Again, do you believe not one Jew was killed in a gas chamber?
I don’t know. I wasn’t there. Do you know? If so, how? Or do you just take it on faith?

Again, do you believe that jews were turned into soap and lampshades by the Nazis?
 
It is rather scary and sad to think of so many people under the direction of a person who makes such bizarre comments.
This is where your arguments totally fall through the floor. You start tossing the insults and you lose any sense of credibility.

I can simply say that it’s sad and pathetic that your prejudice leads you to be willingly mislead and willfully ignorant.
It has nothing about coming unhinged. If you don’t like the topic, then don’t read it.
One of us is suggesting people actually give the man a fair hearing. You don’t want that. You simply want to verbally crucify him.
I don’t think I said agree. I said listen.
No. You attempted to compromise my position and reassure my credibility if I will just bow down and give homage to your position and adopt your prejudiced and ignorant views on Bishop Williamson. “All these things will I give you if you bow down to worship me.”
It’s very easy to ignore people who won’t call a spade a spade.
Then why don’t you ignore Bishop Williamson?
Bishop Williamson shoots himself and the SSPX in the foot each an everytime he comes up with one of his crazy theories.
This is the funny part, you keep pounding the table that his “theories” are “crazy”. Yet you are manifestly dead set against proving it. Your dogmatic statements about what is crazy is not intellectually honest. (or morally honest)
I actually think he has made some good points in some of his letters but I don’t suggest them to people because I don’t refer people to blind squirrels who find a nut once in awhile.
But to continue the analogy, the problem is you are ridiculously ignorant of squirrels. You don’t know the squirrel is blind (you’ve been told that) and you don’t know just how many stores the squirrel has.
What situation?🤷
You refuse to acknowledge that you are ignorant of the exact facts concerning your complaints about Bishop Williamson. You won’t admit you don’t know that much because it undermines your ad homimen attacks against him.
:rotfl: Your hole is getting deeper. Maybe I just [disagree] with him. I read everything thing he said. If you think you need a PH.D for that one, you’d be mistaken. It was GOOFY. Maybe you just missed that.
It’s fine for you to disagree with him. But if your reason is “It’s goofy” that is simply not reasonable. “It’s goofy” is devoid of reason. It’s pure emotion. It has no logic to it. It’s un-intellectual. It has no foundation in reality.

It’s meaningless. This is your whole attitude in this discussion. You are the arbiter of what is or isn’t “goofy”.

You can’t make the distinction between your subjective emotional reactions and feelings from a fact.
And BTW, you just used one of the examples I’ve cited before. I’m not really sure how you can keep up with this “You’ve never cited an example”.
No. You said you encouraged people to read his letters to show how “loopy” he is. You’ve mentioned the Sound of Music letter but you haven’t proved it to be “loopy” or “goofy” as you’ve determined.

Also, you say you don’t recommend people to read him and then you do recommend people read him. I suspect you actually don’t read his letters at all and you don’t recommend them to people to see how “loopy” he is according to you.
You don’t know with absolute certainty that Jews were killed in gas chambers?:eek:
Absolute Certainty is impossible according to St. Robt. Bellarmine. We look for moral certitude.
Do you just have to be one of the Jews killed in a gas chamber to believe it?
What is your criteria for certitude?
There have been many excellent books on the holocaust.
Which ones have you read? Which ones would you recommend?
:whacky: Who exactly told you this? The seven year old boy next door?
It was commonly taught in schools in the 1970’s. Where have you been? Do some research and see what you can find out.
 
Um… honestly, who cares. If everyone would focus on thier own faith and not worry about the priest and bishop and this other ****, just live and do your best and go to mass and confession, otherwise everyoen is judgemental, hateful, and downright prideful. Everyone should go sit in the back corner of the church and PRAY for our priests and bishops.
That’s a great idea on paper but original sin doesn’t mesh with Utopian Christianity.

Being passive when a hatchet job is being done on a good man doesn’t allow me the luxury of not entering the fray. There are certain demands under Justice and Charity not to participate by silence.
 
I read the letter. Williamson says that women can’t be doctors of the Church because that would encourage women to teach publicly. He says that women should not teach (except little children in their homes) for three reasons, which he attributes to Aquinas:
You should be able to download the interview from Colleen Hammond’s website. Several women I know have listened to it and re-evaluated their positions on the bishop and his arguments.

It’s a very good interview.

heartlandcatholic.org/podcast.aspx
 
Ummm…not part of the conversation.
Don’t like answering that one eh? It’s very germaine. It validates or invalidates your premise on the Holy Ghost and how to evaluate the actions of clergy. If it’s good enough for Bishop Williamson it should be good enough for JPII if you want to be consistent.
Jews not killed in gas chambers = Lie
9/11 committed by the US Government = Lie
Why a lie? Why not the truth or why not an error?
Interesting new term you created. According to you they’re invalid. According to the Pope they are not. He’s the Supreme Legislator, you’re not. Disagree at your own peril.
I’m on the good ground of Catholic teaching and right reason.
Wrong. Consecrating the Body of Christ against the express command of the Body of Christ is sacriligious.
You aren’t even making any sense with that one.
Yes. He did not violate any divine or canon laws. Williamson did.
Malfeasance in High office.
Again, you have set yourself as an authority above the Pope and the Church and you declare that their lawful judgement is in error. Not a good idea.
It’s a lawful decision. I don’t dispute that. It’s just wrong on multiple levels. The Church has always taught an invalid excommunication is to be ignored.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"An excommunication is said to be null when it is invalid because of some intrinsic or essential defect, e.g. when the person inflicting it has no jurisdiction, when the motive of the excommunication is manifestly incorrect and inconsistent, or when the excommunication is essentially defective in form. Excommunication is said to be unjust when, though valid, it is wrongfully applied to a person really innocent but believed to be guilty. Here, of course, it is not a question of excommunication latæ sententiæ and in foro interno, but only of one imposed or declared by judicial sentence.** It is admitted by all that a null excommunication produces no effect whatever, and may be ignored without sin." **
I stand by my judgement that Williamson’s actions are evil.
But you won’t stand by JPII’s kissing the Koran? Why the silence? Was that action good or evil?
I have good company, like the Church. You have only schismatics.
Sloganeering. I have the Church and the facts on my side. You’ve got bad Churchmen and bad catechesis.
Are you so brilliantly uninformed as to believe that the Holy Father and the Bishop have given permission to celebrate “Clown Masses”?
salbert.tripod.com/SClel.htm
Don’t hold your breath waiting for Pope Benedict to go crawling to the schismatic bishops.
He doesn’t have to do that, nor would anyone want him to. He simply has to right the wrongs of his predecessors.
Yes. Ahead of the curve on the highway to hell. I heard he’s an AC/DC fan.
That’s about as accurate as the rest of your knowledge of him. Last time I spoke with him we discussed Beethoven Sonatas and performances by Wilhelm Kempff, Backhaus and Schnabel. I was stunned by how much he knew about such a specialized area that I’ve studied for 22 years.
He does nothing for tradition except give them a bad name by his association.
Should he kiss a Koran or remove crosses so he doesn’t offend non-Catholics? Maybe he should have Buddha statues put on Catholic altars. That way he’d be a real defender of the faith, right? Eventually when he “reconciled” he can finish modeling himself on “the Great one” by working for the bogus excommunication of traditionalists.
 
Should he kiss a Koran or remove crosses so he doesn’t offend non-Catholics?
How about if he just refrained form going after headlines by sensationalistic theories. I guess being SSPX, his ego won’t allow that.
 
The bishop doesn’t take any money for his interviews. But since you’ve demonstrated nothing but prejudice on the matter, I shouldn’t be surprised that you don’t know that. Just as you falsely accuse the bishop of not being united to Rome instead of the truth being that he is unjustly persecuted by Rome.

So now we’re resorting to the “you’re a meanie” argument. Give me a break. There have been at least 2 other people on this thread who usually support the SSPX who think Williamson to be nutty for the 9/11 thing and I’m sure a few other things.
They are more comprehensive and flesh out ideas that are expressed in the letters. They clarify misunderstandings that people who overreact and give knee jerk responses imbibe in.
 
The bishop doesn’t take any money for his interviews.

BTW, I’m not sure if he does or doesn’t. I should have said “I wouldn’t spend a dime on Bishop Williamson tapes”. They’re sold all over the internet so somebody supporting his positions is making money.
 
How about if he just refrained form going after headlines by sensationalistic theories. I guess being SSPX, his ego won’t allow that.
Another straw man. He’s not the one clamoring for interviews. He’s simply giving lectures while he visits chapels for confirmations and giving spiritual support to many of the priests he trained.
 
Here’s the original link but it’s gone now. I imagine that someone complained after the first time I posted it.
sspx.ca/Angelus/1978_November/Letters.htm

Can we also listen to him when he says to use the truth found in the Koran to convert the Muslims?:rotfl:
CanNot be as bad as Kissing the Koran,:bigyikes: participating is Cult/Pagan Worship,:bigyikes: receiving blessings from Shamans, :bigyikes:receiving the Hindu symbol on the forehead in support of Hindu god worship,:bigyikes: placing idols of pagans/demons in Churches,:bigyikes: looking at naked women dance around you at a NO service, etc. :bigyikes:

😉
 
CanNot be as bad…looking at naked women dance around you at a NO service, etc. :bigyikes:

😉
Or stealing, murder, and many other things. What does the the fact that there are worse things out there have to do with the topic?
 
  1. Yes it’s a strong argument he makes. Go find it and listen to it.
  2. Infallibility has nothing to do with the honorific of giving someone the title of “Doctor.”
  3. I suggest that you learn something about the subject before you go on a rant about something you obviously know nothing about.
  4. Canonizations aren’t even infallible. Thomas Aquinas (a CANONIZED Saint) teaches that infallibility in canonizations is only a “pious belief.”
I can make a strong argument for the Death Penalty for pedophiles but that doesn’t make it an article of faith. I don’t care for strong arguments just the truth.

I was mistaken about declaring a Saint to a Doctor to be an act of infallibility but I will cite a Catholic source that affirms that canonizations are infallible:

In the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1907 it says:

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, “Beatification,” 1907, p. 366: “In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: ‘Since the honor we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints, we must piously believe that in this matter also the Church is not liable to error.”

I suggest that you stop defending a man who clearly thinks he knows more than the Pope. By his very action of saying that female saints shouldn’t be doctors he is saying that the Pope is wrong. Jesus, Our God, gave the keys to Peter and it follows through Apostolic Succession that continues to this day. I will follow the Pope before any excommunicated Bishop.

Karl Keating VERY wisely said years ago, “Schism leads to heresy”
 
Quote:
“Our Country, In Her Intercourse With Foreign Nations, May She Ever Be Right. But Right Or Wrong, Our Country !”
Also a misquote of Decatur. It was actually “May she ever be right, but may she always be successful, right or wrong”

A natural sentiment for a military officer.

The “My Country Right or Wrong” is truly a major misrepresention of the sentiment.
 
CanNot be as bad as Kissing the Koran,:bigyikes: participating is Cult/Pagan Worship,:bigyikes: receiving blessings from Shamans, :bigyikes:receiving the Hindu symbol on the forehead in support of Hindu god worship,:bigyikes: placing idols of pagans/demons in Churches,:bigyikes: looking at naked women dance around you at a NO service, etc. :bigyikes:

😉
Sounds like someone has been reading Conclavist sites, as all of these are gross misrepresentations of the truths… which seems fitting given the original topic of the SSPX Bishop claims.
 
CanNot be as bad as Kissing the Koran,:bigyikes: participating is Cult/Pagan Worship,:bigyikes: receiving blessings from Shamans, :bigyikes:receiving the Hindu symbol on the forehead in support of Hindu god worship,:bigyikes: placing idols of pagans/demons in Churches,:bigyikes: looking at naked women dance around you at a NO service, etc. :bigyikes:

😉
Wow! I’m shocked it only took 112 posts to bring this up. You guys are getting a little better.:rolleyes:
 
Sounds like someone has been reading Conclavist sites, as all of these are gross misrepresentations of the truths… which seems fitting given the original topic of the SSPX Bishop claims.
They can’t help themselves. At least they dropped the old “the Pope said Mass with a Buddha on the tabernacle” story.:rolleyes:
 
They can’t help themselves. At least they dropped the old “the Pope said Mass with a Buddha on the tabernacle” story.:rolleyes:
Must say I never heard that particular distortion before :rolleyes:

I guess this does demonstrate the significance of the words of our SSPX bishop of course and the credibility they should be given 😉
 
CanNot be as bad as Kissing the Koran,:bigyikes: participating is Cult/Pagan Worship,:bigyikes: receiving blessings from Shamans, :bigyikes:receiving the Hindu symbol on the forehead in support of Hindu god worship,:bigyikes: placing idols of pagans/demons in Churches,:bigyikes: looking at naked women dance around you at a NO service, etc. :bigyikes:

😉
You’ve gone on about this before. Regardless of what you’re told, ie, the Koran kissing was a gesture of courtesy, that the thikta was given by a Christian Indian woman and is a gesture of welcome that has nothing to do with Hinduism, that the nake woman in New Guinea was the responsibility of the local bishops conference, not the Holy See, etc., etc., you’re still determined to think the worst. As was pointed out, this has nothing to do with the topic.
 
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