SSPX and Marriage

[choy]

Choy, below are your quotes where you questioned the validity of the SSPX’s Priesthood and likened them to anglicans and lutherans who are w/o Holy Orders:

Post #49

Post #55

Maybe it was just a poor choice of words on your part but when you say a Priest is “invalid” it means he does not have valid Holy Orders and is therefore not a Priest at all. “Illicit” means valid Holy Orders but the orders were conferred unlawfully. There’s an enormous difference which is what I was trying to tell you.

again, not because they have valid Holy Orders means they can confer valid Sacraments
again the Orthodox. valid Orders. cannot celebrate a valid Catholic mass
are you even reading this explanation? i’ve said the same thing like 5 times at least

 

[MarkThompson]

again, not because they have valid Holy Orders means they can confer valid Sacraments
again the Orthodox. valid Orders. cannot celebrate a valid Catholic mass

Valid Holy Orders do allow the person to carry out certain sacraments, irrespective of standing in the Church. The Eucharist is the big one – a defrocked priest can indeed validly confect the Eucharist, as can an Orthodox priest. Indeed, in the absence of a Catholic Church, it is permitted to receive Communion in an Orthodox church (permitted by our Church, but not by theirs, as I understand it). So an Orthodox priest cannot celebrate a “valid Catholic mass,” but he can celebrate a valid Mass. He’s not even trying to be Catholic.

On the other hand, canon law specifically states that, except in danger of death, a priest without faculties cannot validly give the sacrament of Reconciliation. A defrocked (or SSPX) priest could come to your house and say a valid Mass at your dinner table, but he could not then hear your confession and give you Reconciliation unless you’re dying. If he tried, it would fail, just like if he tried to say Mass with rye bread and rice wine.

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[JReducation]

The Society of St. Pius X, although it is not excommunicated, has not canonical place in the Church. These is the official position of the Holy Father to this day. This has not changed. Therefore, any deacon, priest or bishop of the Society is still suspended.

They do celebrate the sacraments, contrary to the suspension. It is not for us to judge their conscience on this matter. However, it is for us to obey Church law. The law has been posted on this thread several times.

For validity, a marriage must be celebrated either by the Diocesan Bishop or someone who has faculties from him to witness the marriage. Since the deacons and priests of the Society do not have said faculties, these marriages may be valid in civil court (I don’t know how the Society registers itself with the state), but they are invalid in the Church. Therefore, there is no sacrament.

The argument about Ecclesia Suplet, has only been applied for absolution, not for marriage. Even in the case of absolution, there are rules that must be followed. The Church does not provide just because we believe that she does. She provides in very specific situations. But this is a threat with a question about the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony, not confession.

There is a remote possibility that a marriage witnessed by a deacon or priest of the Society may qualify as a Natural Marriage. In which case, the marriage is valid, but not a sacrament. But to determine if this is possible, you must consult the chancery of your diocese.

There is another rule for marriage that has to be taken into account here. When you marry, it must be recorded in the parish where you were baptized. The deacon or pirest must record the marraige in three places: the local books, the local civil registry and the parish of baptism. This gets into another legal problem. The parish of Baptism may not record a marriage that is invalid. That’s why they do not record every marriage by every Catholic. Some they never hear about and others they hear about, but the validity is not there. It cannot be recorded with your Baptismal records. Not having it recorded does not take away from the marriage.

The point is that the fact that parishes may not record these marriages is a very telling reality. It raises a question. There is one way around this, if you really want a marriage witnessed by a deacon or priest of the Society of St. Pius X. You may ask your pastor to grant him permission to witness the marriage in your parish Church. The pastor may have that authority. It depends on the rules of the local diocese, some do and some don’t.

If what you want is to be married in a Extraordinary Fomr Mass, that’s a horse of a different color. You can have an EF mass celebrated by any priest who is in good standing with the Diocesan Bishop and he can witness the marriage or the Deacon at the mass can do it. You can have a deacon witness a marriage, even within a mass. Marriage is the proper sacrament for the deacon to witness.

Since I just walked in, I’m not sure if the desire is to have the marriage witnessed by a cleric from the SSPX or have the marriage rite take place within the EF of the mass. If it’s the latter, there is no problem. There are other priests who can celebrate that form. If it’s the former, you have a very big problem with validity. If the bishop says that it’s not valid, it will not fly with the Vatican either. The bishop has the final ruling on the validity of a marriage before it takes place… He decides what is or is not allowed in his diocese.

Just as a footnote. I know that there are some traditionalist priests who belong to religious orders. Do not ask such a priest to witness your marriage unless you know that he has the permission of his Major Superior to celebrate the EF. The Motu Proprio did not grant free license to every priest. It was only directed to secular priests and secular bishops. There is one sentence in it that specifically says that those priests who are regular, must comply with their major superiors and the laws of their community.

I’m giving the readers this warning, because there are some religious who are disobyeing their superiors and not telling the lay people that they (lay people) are going to be in trouble. If a religoius marries you against the wishes of his superior, the wedding is invalid. His superior has the same power as the bishop, even if his superior is not a priest. He has rights over the pirests in his community by virtue of being the superior. Most religious superiors require that the EF be celebrated only with their permission.

I’ve never seen a religious superior deny it. But I have seen my fair share of bull-headed religious who want to make their own rules and ot ask for permission. Which is silly, if you know that you’re not going to be denied if you have a good reason.

Protect yourself on that special day by making sure that your deacon or priest has all of the proper permissions. Now, let’s eat cake.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

again, not because they have valid Holy Orders means they can confer valid Sacraments
again the Orthodox. valid Orders. cannot celebrate a valid Catholic mass
are you even reading this explanation? i’ve said the same thing like 5 times at least

Maybe I can help here. I believe that the word that is getting in the way here is the word, Catholic.

The mass is the mass. It’s not Catholic and it’s not Orthodox. Let’s break this down into little pieces.

There are 22 Churches that belong to the Catholic Church. All of them celebrate the mass. There are six rites. Each of those Churches uses one of those rites.

There are also a number of Eastern Churches that broke off from the Oriental Catholic Churches. These are called Orthodox Christians. They do have Apostolic Succession. They too have five of the six rites that the Catholic Church has.

The mass can be validly celebrated in any of these Catholic and Orthodox Churches as long as it the priest uses one of these rites…

That’s the whole story. The validity depends on the matter and form, not on the relationship with the Catholic Church.

If you have all of the elements necessary: validly ordained priest, bread, wine, intent, you have a valid mass.

Legal is a whole other question. It can be valid, but illegal. It is only illegal if the priest is suspended, celebrating a mass of another rite without permission, concelebrating in another valid apostolic Church, but without permission. All of these things make the mass illegal or illicit. But it remains valid.

There is not dispute about this between Catholic and Orthodox. Nor is there any dispute among the 22 Catholic Churches that are in union with Rome.

The mass is neither Catholic nor Orthodox. We don’t own it. It is what it is. It either is a mass or is not a mass. I spelled out the criteria for it to be a mass. Scroll up.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF