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NihilObstatINRI
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I had never seen that before!
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At_Trent
Guest
Yes, Bishop Williamson wrote that not long after the fuss. Some still won’t accept it because H.E. won’t accept the inflated numbers of Jews killed. 6 million was the number thrown around for years, but now I think it’s closer to 1 - 1 1/2 million.
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NihilObstatINRI
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I’m not historian, and I’m not against historical revisionism per se, but I’m not going to accept a lower estimate unless it’s been demonstrated rather firmly that the original estimates were flawed.
If you want to attempt to demonstrate that, you can start with any relevant peer-reviewed papers.
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At_Trent
Guest
I’m not going to look them up, but I think the Auschwitz Museum lowered their estimates to less than 2 million.
… well, here, a quick search found this
4.bp.blogspot.com/_s5yaZ0Ye2Mo/RrU7Ouu69KI/AAAAAAAACkI/4Ody4MwX-WY/s1600/paage_1.jpg
Whether is is an authentic document, I can’t say.
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JReducation
Guest
I believe that he was removed from his post at the semianry and sent back to England, I don’t know for how long.
The Holy Father never said that it was or was not enough. But long after he received this letter he continued to refer to him as anti-semite. The Holy Father’s comment came about a year later.
There was a brief comment by the Holy See about this letter. I mean really brief. It simply said that the letter apologized for causing the Holy Father and the Church distress, but stopped short of doing what the Holy Father wanted. It did not recant what was said.
I did read somewhere that Bishop Williamson said that he was using material that he had read and was willing to read up more on the subject. I have no idea where he’s at today. I have not heard of him saying anything further on this subject.
I feel that the problem here is that the media takes advantage of these unfortunate statements and events to attack the Catholic Church. This interview was several months old; but it was not released until the excommunications were lifted. Therefore, it’s very important to be very careful what one says in public, because those who are looking for a problem will find one and use it. Which takes us back to what we’ve been saying about what people put on blogs and the Internet.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
This document has been around for a while, but it was dismissed by the German and Polish governments themselves. I remember this. The argument was that there were more documents kept by other groups, including the bishops that had numbers that went far beyond this. Catholics alone, there were almost 5 million. When you tally up everyone’s numbers, they add up to more than six million victims.
Also, I think that what really got the bishop into hot water was that he did not believe there were gas chambers. The numbers would have probably blown over very quickly, since the 6 million is an estimate. The gas chambers is not a fiction. People saw them and some of those who saw them have just recently died or are still alive. They’re probably about the same age as the Holy Father. Among them were young German soldiers.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Planty_Pall
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I can’t question your experience Denise. I believe you.
I can’t speak for any chapel but our own. Unfortunately, the SSPX might attract the types that you mention, but they are disgruntled. They don’t want what the Society of St. Pius X wants. They sure don’t want any contact with Rome and they WILL leave if there is a reunion. But that is not what I meant when I said there wouldn’t be a split. Those people aren’t part of the equation
I met someone once at a Society event elsewhere who didn’t believe that the Novus Ordo has valid ordinations. I explained what our priest taught about it on the occasion of a class about Holy Orders. They said he was liberal. I explained Michael Davies’ position from his The Order of Melchisedec why we can’t question the essential form of the reformed ordination liturgy. I talked about when Pius XII explained in 1947 in what the form of the oprdination rite consists. They didn’t care about any of it and accused our pastor of liberalism. I appreciated what Br. J.R. said about the priest he knows. We have just had a strong middle aged priest who didn’t fear the nonsense from this kind of crowd. I hope Br. J.R.'s good priest is loving but fearless like our pastor was.
I don’t think you see anyone at their best on the internet, including Bp. Williamson. I suppose the sedes see him as their best hope, but he isn’t one of them. I do not see Bp. Williamson leading a revolt for the reason that I do not see Bp. Fellay as being any different in regards to what he will or will not do. I doubt Bp. Fellay is as malleable as somem might think, and I doubt Bp. Williamson is as unbending as somem might think.
Archbishop Lefebvre’s own father died in a Nazi concentration camp. Neither he nor any of the bishops, nor any of the SSPX priests I have ever read, heard, or known have given the slightest hint of promoting fascist ideals. Politically, they believe what Pope St. Pius X taught, who followed Pope Leo XIII and his social encyclicals. They preach the eventual restoration of Christian civilization through the Social Reign of Christ the King. Their publicly expressed beliefs about relations between church and state are well known to be in conflict with the politics of Mussolini and Hitler.
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pnewton
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I tried to find where this document is, to see if it was from an historical site or a fraud. There is not documentation on it.
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Denise1957
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I think I understand what you are saying about these who are disgruntled as not being part of the equation. But they do consider themselves as part of the equation, as they are registered members of chapels. Also, some of them have been with the Society since its beginning. The Archbishop, from what I understand, knew about Bp. Williamson’s Revisionist views early on, but didn’t do anything. Similar to the tolerance that the Archbishop showed toward Fr. Coomaraswamy and his Perennialist views. As long as those of an odd or eccentric mindset didn’t cause a fuss, the Archbishop was tolerant of them.
Yes, their expressed beliefs regarding Church and state are in conflict with the policies of Hitler and Mussolini. Also, those descendents of the old monarchies who are benefactors of the SSPX would also be against the policies of Hitler and Mussolini, since they would like to see a return of the monarchies.
I hope that you are right about Bp. Williamson not being as unbending as some might think.
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Will_S
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This document seems genuine, but it doesn’t say what some people might think it says.
It lists those deaths in former concentration camps for which a certificate of death is (or rather, in 1984, was) on file.
Any number of people could have been killed without a death certificate having been issued, and you know, when the bodies are shoveled by the hundreds and thousands into mass graves, death certificates for each probably isn’t the main concern.
Right at the end, underlined, the document states:
“No conclusions as to the actual number of those who died in the concentration camps can be made based on the number of death certificates in possession of the special office of registry.”
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paul11b
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So is the general consensus that the SSPX will be in communion with Rome or that they will not be??
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NihilObstatINRI
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Seems on this thread that most of us think they will be. Father Z. polled his readers, and it was very close to a 50/50 split. The yes side had it by a small margin, maybe barely statistically significant.
However, and maybe more importantly, I think a very large majority want the reunion to happen and are actively praying for it.
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paul11b
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I know I “want” it and am praying for it. I cannot in good faith attend a Church that I know is out of communion with Rome, and I LOVE the TLM. The closest FSSP Church to me is 2 hours away and there is an SSPX chapel 30 mins from me. I really want my kids to go to TLM and receive their sacraments the traditional way if possible. I can only go to my regular parish that has only 1 TLM a week but if they end up being in communion I could attend the SSPX chapel and I’d be ecstatic!!! But then again I want God’s will to be done, so if they don’t come into communion with the Church I guess there is a bigger reason than anything I can see.
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NihilObstatINRI
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If the closest FSSP parish is two hours away, I bet you’re perfectly justified in asking around to see if a local priest will celebrate the TLM. Start with your local pastor maybe, or talk to your bishop if he’s friendly. S.P. and U.E. give us the right.
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JReducation
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This is the problem with this document. The Nazi accounting system was very inaccurate, because many of the victims were buried in mass graves and were never recorded. Other bodies were maliciously disposed of. One of those was St. Maxmilian Kolbe. They hated him so much that they would not allow the friars to bury him. They not only killed him, but they deliberately burned his body and scattered his ashes forcing 40 friars and other priests who were in the concentration camp with him watch. In the Nazi’s documentation there is only a notation of his ID #, which indicates that he was in prison, but no mention of what happened to him. We know about St. Max’s death because others saw it. Like this, there were many. There are other lists kept by other groups, such as churches that kept records of the dead as they were reported. No one has a conclusive list. The best that can be done is to tally up everyone’s data and come up with an approximation.
At the end of the day, as Fr. Vincent Serpa, OP said, there is no way that a Catholic can take a minimalist position on this issue. Did everyone see the question about Hitler in Ask An Apologist? Father answered it very well. I believe that’s the answer that the Holy See demands that all of us give to questions about the Shoah. That’s probably the reason that the Holy Father, a year later, was still using very strong rhetoric concerning Bishop Williamson. He did not give the answer that the Holy Father expects from Catholics.
That’s a tough question to answer, because we don’t know what’s in the folder that they gave to Bishop Fellay. If I were a betting man, who I’m not, I would say that there is going to be a large segment of the SSPX clergy and laity who will reconcile with Rome.
I have trouble believing that all of them will reconcile. This is what I find very sad. I’m remembering Pope Benedict’s question when he lifted the excommunications, “What will become of them?”
I guess they will become like the Old Catholics or the Polish National Church, except that they won’t be Sedes. I call this “Catholics in self-imposed exile”.
I see these folks as I see those who belong to these other groups who are outside of the Church because of abortion, contraception, women’s ordination, and same-sex marriage. These are angry people. No matter which side of the equation you’re on, anger has a way of obstructing common sense.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Planty_Pall
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Hi again Denise. I appreciate your knowledge and background. I hadn’t recalled the story of Mr. Coomaraswamy in regards to his brief relationship with the Archbishop.
Firstly, I believe those I might consider odd or eccentric have sometimes contributed to the cause of Christ, especially if they don’t cause a fuss. I think they at least need to be tolerated. Abp. Lefebvre made mistakes at the American seminary that he regretted and corrected. “Fr” Coomaraswamy was not ordained until long after he had left the seminary so it does not seem accurate to refer to him as a priest during his tenure in Connecticut.
We can’t dismiss any science merely because it has revised previously believed propositions, including history. I have already stated my reasons for why I don’t care to condemn Bp. Williamson as a bishop for his private view which suggests that the numbers of Jews executed in the camps was less than has been accepted popularly. I am also open to the possibility that the gas chambers, which were constructed for the purpose of gassing, may have proved to have been an inefficient means of killing.
Others here who are not SSPX have already shown that they are open to reduction of the numbers of dead by over a 100%. It would certainly seem they would have tried to use the gas chambers. However the majority were killed, it seems important to some groups that they were gassed rather than ordered into a ditch and shot. I do not believe a minority belief about the mode of execution about a now distant and difficult to prove historical question, is even particularly odd or eccentric, much less a disqualifier for service as a Catholic priest or bishop.
Respectfully,
Planty Pall
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Planty_Pall
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Denise, Hi again.
I can remember a book I read where it was claimed that the Catholics systematically slaughtered oevr a hundred million souls during the times of the Inquisition. It turns out that instead, the Spanish Inquisition turned over several thousand souls who had claimed to be Catholic to the secular authorities for capital crimes against the state in a course of several centuries.
Historical revisionsm is at best an attempt at simple justice toward the dead. Why would anyone of good will not at least wish that the Inquisition was less cruel than popularly thought? Why would anyone of good will not wish that the Nazis, while still guilty of horrendous acts, are a little less guilty than popularly thought? The answer is that they would not. Those with good will, and a sincere desire for justice will welcome every attempt to discover that these groups who have been identified as villainous, are less guilty than has been previously believed. Who wants to condemn the innocent, or magnify out of proportion the evil acts of the guilty, whether they are dead or alive?
I have difficulty understanding the outright hostility towards re-examining these popularly held assumptuions that might exonerate the Nazis of some guilt. The best parallel I know of, is the extravagantly exaggerated claims of cruelty and outrageously inflated numbers laid at the door of the Catholic Church, as a whole, for the Spanish system of justice, by religious reformers hostile to the Catholic faith. These were people who sought, for their own agenda, to blacken the repuations of those who if guilty were not nearly so guilty, and who in many cases, with clear consciences recorded their actions for all the world and God to see. I cannot in good conscience accept that it is impossible that the heinous crimes of our enemies in World War II have been somewhat exaggerated.
PP
I can remember a book I read where it was claimed that the Catholics systematically slaughtered oevr a hundred million souls during the times of the Inquisition. It turns out that instead, the Spanish Inquisition turned over several thousand souls who had claimed to be Catholic to the secular authorities for capital crimes against the state in a course of several centuries.
Historical revisionsm is at best an attempt at simple justice toward the dead. Why would anyone of good will not at least wish that the Inquisition was less cruel than popularly thought? Why would anyone of good will not wish that the Nazis, while still guilty of horrendous acts, are a little less guilty than popularly thought? The answer is that they would not. Those with good will, and a sincere desire for justice will welcome every attempt to discover that these groups who have been identified as villainous, are less guilty than has been previously believed. Who wants to condemn the innocent, or magnify out of proportion the evil acts of the guilty, whether they are dead or alive?
I have difficulty understanding the outright hostility towards re-examining these popularly held assumptuions that might exonerate the Nazis of some guilt. The best parallel I know of, is the extravagantly exaggerated claims of cruelty and outrageously inflated numbers laid at the door of the Catholic Church, as a whole, for the Spanish system of justice, by religious reformers hostile to the Catholic faith. These were people who sought, for their own agenda, to blacken the repuations of those who if guilty were not nearly so guilty, and who in many cases, with clear consciences recorded their actions for all the world and God to see. I cannot in good conscience accept that it is impossible that the heinous crimes of our enemies in World War II have been somewhat exaggerated.
PP
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TrueLight
Guest
I believe this thread is derailing into a holocaust thread unless the majority of SSPX hold the Bishop Williamson view.
I really do hope the SSPX do accept the terms. As it turns out, I’m going to be attending their mass anyway once a month when I miss my regular mass in the morning. The chapel has an afternoon mass, and there aren’t any afternoon EF masses in the area.
I really do hope the SSPX do accept the terms. As it turns out, I’m going to be attending their mass anyway once a month when I miss my regular mass in the morning. The chapel has an afternoon mass, and there aren’t any afternoon EF masses in the area.
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Denise1957
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I’m glad you mentioned that Mr.Coomaraswamy wasn’t ordained until after he left Ridgefield. I should have mentioned that myself. Of course he helped to influence the “Nine” to leave the SSPX and start the SSPV, a sedevacantist group. That the Archbishop knew of Mr. Coomaraswamy’s Perennialist views (though he was also a Catholic convert) shows that the Archbishop was rather ecumenical himself. Perennialism is based on the teachings of Rene Guenon, Ananda Coomaraswamy (Rama’s father) and Frithjof Schuon. And it has nothing to do with Catholicism, but is a strange blend of New-Age and Aryanism. Hopefully the Archbishop didn’t condone Coomaraswamy’s Perennialist views. We just don’t know.
Regarding the view of the ‘numbers’ of dead, and how they died, the shadowy world of Revisionism and it’s worldview go far beyond the numbers of dead and the cause of how they died. Surely you are aware that this is only the tip of the iceberg of Revisionist belief, right? What should be asked is why someone would want to obsess on numbers and methodology. I believe that Revisionism is sinister in that it implicates an ethnic group (Jews) with wanting to control that world and destroy the Church. At least that’s what Catholic revisionists believe. But then revisionism is a big tent sort of belief system, in that non-Catholic Revisionists have the same basic views, even though they aren’t so concerned about the supposed destruction of the Church. Bp. Williamson often has quoted the views of non-Catholics in his weekly column and other writings.
Revisionism is in itself an ecumenical movement, and I find it odd that Catholic Revisionists would then complain about the path that ecumenism has taken in the Church since Vatican ll.
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NihilObstatINRI
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Let’s be clear, not all historical revisionism is holocaust revisionism.Some people use revisionism as an umbrella term that indicates a certain skepticism towards “the party line”.
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