SSPX and Rome : Latest Hint At What Will Transcend Sept 14th

[severus68]

Denise, Hi again.

I can remember a book I read where it was claimed that the Catholics systematically slaughtered oevr a hundred million souls during the times of the Inquisition. It turns out that instead, the Spanish Inquisition turned over several thousand souls who had claimed to be Catholic to the secular authorities for capital crimes against the state in a course of several centuries.

Historical revisionsm is at best an attempt at simple justice toward the dead. Why would anyone of good will not at least wish that the Inquisition was less cruel than popularly thought? Why would anyone of good will not wish that the Nazis, while still guilty of horrendous acts, are a little less guilty than popularly thought? The answer is that they would not. Those with good will, and a sincere desire for justice will welcome every attempt to discover that these groups who have been identified as villainous, are less guilty than has been previously believed. Who wants to condemn the innocent, or magnify out of proportion the evil acts of the guilty, whether they are dead or alive?

I have difficulty understanding the outright hostility towards re-examining these popularly held assumptuions that might exonerate the Nazis of some guilt. The best parallel I know of, is the extravagantly exaggerated claims of cruelty and outrageously inflated numbers laid at the door of the Catholic Church, as a whole, for the Spanish system of justice, by religious reformers hostile to the Catholic faith. These were people who sought, for their own agenda, to blacken the repuations of those who if guilty were not nearly so guilty, and who in many cases, with clear consciences recorded their actions for all the world and God to see. I cannot in good conscience accept that it is impossible that the heinous crimes of our enemies in World War II have been somewhat exaggerated.

PP

We are supposed to learn from history, not try to rewrite history to make evil men and or evil deeds look better. I am aghast and horrified at what you say here. You talk of justice for the perpertrators of terrible deeds. What about their victims?

Even the Church accepts that the Inquisition was wrong even if it acted in good faith. The Church is clear about the evil of the Nazis and their terrible crimes.

To read this in a Catholic forum from a Catholic !!

 

[JReducation]

Others here who are not SSPX have already shown that they are open to reduction of the numbers of dead by over a 100%. It would certainly seem they would have tried to use the gas chambers. However the majority were killed, it seems important to some groups that they were gassed rather than ordered into a ditch and shot. **I do not believe a minority belief about the mode of execution about a now distant and difficult to prove historical question, is even particularly odd or eccentric, much less a disqualifier for service as a Catholic priest or bishop. **

Respectfully,

Planty Pall

The bold is mine

When it comes to the Shoah, the Holy Father is unbending about this. Those of us who do formation work, vocation recruiting, ordaining or approve candidates for vows or ordination cannot accept a candidate with a contrary position on this one. The Holy Father does not grant a pass on this point, anymore than he grants a pass on ordaining anyone who has expressed the slightest doubt about abortion, Communism, sexual abuse and a few other points. His statement to Bishop Williamson was not a suggestion, it was a command – to put distance between himself and this opinion.

I don’t think that the Holy Father holds a grudge against the bishop, but the fact that he brings it up about a year after the bishop had apologized and still refers to him in less than flattering terms is an indicator that this is unacceptable. Therefore, anyone who has anything to do with formation of priests and religious quickly got the message.

It was what I call an “OKaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy moment”. This is obviously not up for discussion.

The point is whether we’re talking about the Holocaust or terrorism, all of us have to be very careful not to undermine the Holy See’s efforts at reconciliation with Jews or Muslims. It is much more important to work on reconciliation than to dig up this or that to prove a point. That will not get us any closer to the desired goal, which is to bring Catholics and non-Catholics to the table and to build trust. Without trust, there is no possibility of evangelization. No one listens to someone whom they don’t trust.

St. Maximilian Kolbe said this well. When he was the superior of the Conventual Franciscans, he sent many friars to India and Japan. He commanded them not to look for the defficiencies in Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, but to find the truths in them. He said that whatever the belief system was, there was always a Catholic presence in each of them, even if that was deformed or misunderstood. It was this common point of agreement that we should look for as the starting point of building fraternity. From there, grace takes care of the rest.

Today, while the Church is looking for common points be it with non-Catholics or with groups within the Church that have an irregular positions, such as the SSPX and others, it behooves all of us to work with her to find those common points and build on them. When a bishop goes out on a limb like this, it does not help, especially if he’s a very public figure. There are some bishops that no one knows who they are and they say some silly things, but it does not do much harm, because they’re not visible.

This is a key point that the SSPX has to consider in this re-entry process. While it can protect and defend what it legitimately considers to be Catholic Tradition, it also has to refrain from doing anything that undermines the work of the Holy See. The problem is that they are very visible. People are going to be looking at them. Some are going to be looking at them for any mistake to wag their finger and say that they should have never been readmitted and others are going to look at them for any mistake in order to condemn the direction of the universal Church.

I believe that they have to come up with a way of expressing their concerns and thoughts that does not create a conflict for the Church. Other groups have an advantage over them. They’re not the new kids on the block. People either blow them off or get angry for a few days and then move on. When you’re the new kid on the block, people can be merciless.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Planty_Pall]

We are supposed to learn from history, not try to rewrite history to make evil men and or evil deeds look better. I am aghast and horrified at what you say here. You talk of justice for the perpertrators of terrible deeds. What about their victims?

Even the Church accepts that the Inquisition was wrong even if it acted in good faith. The Church is clear about the evil of the Nazis and their terrible crimes.

To read this in a Catholic forum from a Catholic !!

Severus, your verbal apoplexy is an overreaction. The internet is full of screwballs. You’re aghast and horrified because somebody you don’t know who claims to Catholic on the internet says that we aren’t supposed to exaggerate the misdeeds of villains? If that in your eyes, makes me a nut, okay I am one, but you won’t have to look far I am afraid to find loonies that are more in need of a strait jacket than me. Some of them might even identify themselves as Catholic. Don’t be upset. If you are horrified by my opinion, I don’t think you’ll enjoy the internet.

---

Anyway, to all…yeah we don’t want to get sidetracked.

Br. J.R., I don’t have a dog in this hunt. I don’t know. I am not trying to minimalize evil or forget about victims. I am thinking this generation isn’t ready to be objective. Did you see what Severus said to me? Am I really such a screwball for not being confident about something that I don’t want to study? There all kinds of things I don’t want to study out that I suspend judgment about.

I think our German pope might be a trifle more sensitive to this issue than the Church will be in a thousand years, or even twenty. I wasn’t aware of his disqualifiers. In any event, Bp. Williamson has been relieved of all public duties and has written a contrite note to the pope apologizing for his public imprudence. I doubt that it means he has changed his mind about something that seems far removed from an article of faith. But he and the Society seem to be co-operating. Me too. I am just saying I don’t know, and I don’t want to talk about it anymore either unless somebody wants to insist that I have to concede something that I cannot know by faith. The natural revelation route would take more work than seems reasonable for an older guy with hopefully twenty more years to read.

I don’t like the Nazis. One of my favorite books is written by a Russian Jew, Vasily Grossman. It is called Life and Fate. I have read it twice and will again. It is like War and Peace both in length and characters and scenes. Poor Grossman. He had written his magnum opus and it was hidden but became discovered during the Kruschev thaw, only to be confiscated. He died of cancer in the early 60’s thinking his great work would never be known. I am so glad that somebody got it out to the West. I love the Russians.

Life and Fate shows how nasty the Nazis were without sparing the Soviets. It follows a Jewish family who are the protagonists. I am not anti-semitic. I love Jews too. I am terribly sorry for what befell them. But I am interested in literature, and poetry, and spiritual reading, and some other history too. I don’t want to study this stuff about concentration camps. I am convinced that the Nazis were horrible, and if that isn’t satisfactory, I am sorry. I just don’t think it is fair, in light of the historical precedent I have provided, to force me out of my historical agnosticism about details when we are agreed that Nazism is and was evil and will always be incompatible with the Catholic faith.

 

[Will_S]

Here’s an interesting short article which describes some of the issues at stake for the SSPX leadership as they consider their way forward (from Catholic Family News):

cfnews.org/1001questions.htm

 

[severus68]

Severus, your verbal apoplexy is an overreaction. The internet is full of screwballs. You’re aghast and horrified because somebody you don’t know who claims to Catholic on the internet says that we aren’t supposed to exaggerate the misdeeds of villains? If that in your eyes, makes me a nut, okay I am one, but you won’t have to look far I am afraid to find loonies that are more in need of a strait jacket than me. Some of them might even identify themselves as Catholic. Don’t be upset. If you are horrified by my opinion, I don’t think you’ll enjoy the internet.

---

Anyway, to all…yeah we don’t want to get sidetracked.

Br. J.R., I don’t have a dog in this hunt. I don’t know. I am not trying to minimalize evil or forget about victims. I am thinking this generation isn’t ready to be objective. Did you see what Severus said to me? Am I really such a screwball for not being confident about something that I don’t want to study? There all kinds of things I don’t want to study out that I suspend judgment about.

I think our German pope might be a trifle more sensitive to this issue than the Church will be in a thousand years, or even twenty. I wasn’t aware of his disqualifiers. In any event, Bp. Williamson has been relieved of all public duties and has written a contrite note to the pope apologizing for his public imprudence. I doubt that it means he has changed his mind about something that seems far removed from an article of faith. But he and the Society seem to be co-operating. Me too. I am just saying I don’t know, and I don’t want to talk about it anymore either unless somebody wants to insist that I have to concede something that I cannot know by faith. The natural revelation route would take more work than seems reasonable for an older guy with hopefully twenty more years to read.

I don’t like the Nazis. One of my favorite books is written by a Russian Jew, Vasily Grossman. It is called Life and Fate. I have read it twice and will again. It is like War and Peace both in length and characters and scenes. Poor Grossman. He had written his magnum opus and it was hidden but became discovered during the Kruschev thaw, only to be confiscated. He died of cancer in the early 60’s thinking his great work would never be known. I am so glad that somebody got it out to the West. I love the Russians.

Life and Fate shows how nasty the Nazis were without sparing the Soviets. It follows a Jewish family who are the protagonists. I am not anti-semitic. I love Jews too. I am terribly sorry for what befell them. But I am interested in literature, and poetry, and spiritual reading, and some other history too. I don’t want to study this stuff about concentration camps. I am convinced that the Nazis were horrible, and if that isn’t satisfactory, I am sorry. I just don’t think it is fair, in light of the historical precedent I have provided, to force me out of my historical agnosticism about details when we are agreed that Nazism is and was evil and will always be incompatible with the Catholic faith.

Your post to which I responded, made it clear that you feel that there may be over exaggerations of the extent of the cruelty and barbarism of the villains of history, that people of good will would want a re examination of those events and would be happy to find those so called villains less guilty. You also intimated that some of those villains may be innocent by your next sentence.

While I agree that historical inaccuracies should be rectified, all right thinking men would never question the horror that was the Holocaust and the Inquisition. There has been extensive investigation and more than sufficient evidence of what the Nazis did. It should never be downplayed. The victims of the Inquisition are long dead. Some of the victims of the Nazis are alive and the accounts of terrible acts live clearly in the minds of the descendents of victims. I know of non right thinking Muslims who deny the Holocaust ever happened. These are the ones who also say that the Catholics led the corruption of the Bible.

 

[Planty_Pall]

Your post to which I responded, made it clear that you feel that there may be over exaggerations of the extent of the cruelty and barbarism of the villains of history, that people of good will would want a re examination of those events and would be happy to find those so called villains less guilty. You also intimated that some of those villains may be innocent by your next sentence.

While I agree that historical inaccuracies should be rectified, all right thinking men would never question the horror that was the Holocaust and the Inquisition. There has been extensive investigation and more than sufficient evidence of what the Nazis did. It should never be downplayed. The victims of the Inquisition are long dead. Some of the victims of the Nazis are alive and the accounts of terrible acts live clearly in the minds of the descendents of victims. I know of non right thinking Muslims who deny the Holocaust ever happened. These are the ones who also say that the Catholics led the corruption of the Bible.

Hi Severus.

You have capsulized my position fairly. It is compatible with “never question(ing) the horror that was the holocaust…” I disagree that justice requires that we hold a different standard of history while victims live than is permitted after they are dead. Victims do not benefit any more than non-victims if villainy is exaggerated, and I am not saying it was. Nobody of good will benefits when sins or crimes or cruelties are exaggerated. You have said that you agree that historical inaccuracies should be rectified and that satisfies me.

I do not think it would be proper to debate the Inquisition on this thread or anything more about the Holocaust as I think it has been an annoyance to some already. I am more interested in general principles of good history than I am of specific Holocaust history anyway. My thoughts to which you objected were prompted by someone else’s remarks that seemed to reflect a belief that history is a static science that can never be revised. I vigorously disagree. It is no different than any other science. I believe that we make progress in physical science, medical science, historical science, and (gasp!) even theological science.

I am hoping that remarks subsequent to your first reply to me might prompt you to a “revision” of the first impression I gave you. Heh. I have revised my first impression of you in any case, and appreciate your apparent effort to understand my thinking.

God Bless,

Planty Pall

edited postscript: Progress in theology would not involve revision of error, but would follow the rule laid down in the First Vatican Council which permits more clarity. In respect to “revision” theology is different from the other sciences. But like the other sciences it is not static, and does make legitimate progress.

 

[severus68]

Hi Severus.

You have capsulized my position fairly. It is compatible with “never question(ing) the horror that was the holocaust…” I disagree that justice requires that we hold a different standard of history while victims live than is permitted after they are dead. Victims do not benefit any more than non-victims if villainy is exaggerated, and I am not saying it was. Nobody of good will benefits when sins or crimes or cruelties are exaggerated. You have said that you agree that historical inaccuracies should be rectified and that satisfies me.

I do not think it would be proper to debate the Inquisition on this thread or anything more about the Holocaust as I think it has been an annoyance to some already. I am more interested in general principles of good history than I am of specific Holocaust history anyway. My thoughts to which you objected were prompted by someone else’s remarks that seemed to reflect a belief that history is a static science that can never be revised. I vigorously disagree. It is no different than any other science. I believe that we make progress in physical science, medical science, historical science, and (gasp!) even theological science.

I am hoping that remarks subsequent to your first reply to me might prompt you to a “revision” of the first impression I gave you. Heh. I have revised my first impression of you in any case, and appreciate your apparent effort to understand my thinking.

God Bless,

Planty Pall

edited postscript: Progress in theology would not involve revision of error, but would follow the rule laid down in the First Vatican Council which permits more clarity. In respect to “revision” theology is different from the other sciences. But like the other sciences it is not static, and does make legitimate progress.

Just to clarify that I meant that the Holocaust is still “raw”.

I have no interest of “attacking” anyone including you for the sake of doing so or as a"win"strategy. My apologies if I misunderstood you.I am just passionate about my causes and the truth as I am passionate about literature and poetry.

 

[At_Trent]

Good grief. The SSPX has taken sensitive text about Jews off their website, Bishop Williamson has kept his mouth shut, and Bishop Fellay has called the Jews “our elder Brothers”

Rome has been in talks with the SSPX and has made them an offer. Meanwhile, Abe Hoffman (ADL) is popping off expressing his “concerns”. Yea right, he is expressing his disdain for Roman Catholicism is what he’s doing. Same with the blogs and media covering this. It’s exactly as Bishop Williamson said.

“The media have no idea what a real Catholic is. If they did, they would scream for his martyrdom, they would scream for his skin.”

Anti-Catholicism, the last acceptable prejudice. These groups that meddle in the Church’s business would do well to worry about the fires of Hell rather than worry about something that is none of their business and want no part of no matter how much appeasement they receive anyhow.

 

[At_Trent]

And another thing, why don’t all you naysayers and “virtual canon lawyers” stop insulting the Holy See’s intelligence… And the Pope’s… and let them suggest to the SSPX what is required instead of all of this " they have to be careful" " they must do this" “they must do that” mumble in every single thread on the SSPX ?

The SSPX owes you nothing and doesn’t answer to your demands. H.H. knows what he’s getting with the Society. The SSPX will answer to him and God Almighty.

God save us from the rotting “fruits” of the warm fuzzy spirit of VII.

 

[TrueLight]

Here’s an interesting short article which describes some of the issues at stake for the SSPX leadership as they consider their way forward (from Catholic Family News):

cfnews.org/1001questions.htm

I think the following are excellent questions:

• How will diocesan bishops react in the long term to SSPX bishops regularly stepping into their dioceses to perform the sacrament of Confirmation, especially when the bishops knows the congregation wants the SSPX prelate because it trusts neither the new rite of Confirmation nor the diocesan bishop himself?

• Can Tradition fully operate under a Novus Ordo hierarchy?

 

[JReducation]

Here’s an interesting short article which describes some of the issues at stake for the SSPX leadership as they consider their way forward (from Catholic Family News):

cfnews.org/1001questions.htm

There are many weaknesses in this article, too many to point out here. Just a few obvious ones.

1. The author does not understand how prelature works; otherwise, he would not be asking some of the questions he asks.
2. He assumes that the religious orders that go by such names as Franciscans, Capuchins, Dominicans and other are still members of their respective orders. All of these people were canonically dismissed from their respective communities. If they want reconciliation with the Holy See they have two choices, a) they must apply for readmission to their respective orders or b) do as the Transalpine Redemptorists did and apply for erection as independent religious institutes under a different name. You cannot have two religious institutes with the same name following two different obediences.
3. Yes, the election of the head of a prelature is elected by the prelature, but appointed by the pope, because he funnctions as the pope’s vicar. Therefore, it is expected that he represents the mind of the pope before the prelature. That’s why it’s called a Personal Prelature of the Holy See. If they had the autonomy to elect their own bishop, without the pope’s approval, they would be a sui iuris Church as are the Eastern Churches. Even the Eastern Churches cannot ordain bishops without a papal mandate. The difference is that many of the Patriarchs are delegated to grant such a mandate. The SSPX does not have such a patriarch.
4. Chapels that are friendly toward the SSPX, but not part of the SSPX would not be part of the prelature. A prelature is a diocese without boundaries. Only those institutions under its jurisdiction belong to it. These chapels would have to submit to the prelature. They cannot choose to be independent and pick and choose the bishop they want. Canon law does not allow any diocesan priest to exist without a bishop and no religious without a major superior. To say that these chapels have to be allowed to continue to exist independently and be served by the bishops of the SSPX at their request is not reasonable. Either they join the SSPX or they remain outside. Is there a reason why they don’t join the SSPX? I don’t understand why not.
5. As to property and seminaries, prelatures can own property and erect seminaries. It’s in canon law. The relationship between the prelature and the local bishop is determined by the Holy Father himself, not the local bishop or the head of the prelature. Again, that’s why it’s called a Personal Prelature of the Holy See. It protects them from intrusion and at the same time it protects the local diocese from proselytizing by the prelature. Everyone has rules that they have to follow. What’s unreasonable about that?

My take is that the author does not undestand a prelature or that he wants the SSPX to function like a sui iuris Church. The latter is impossible and the former just requires looking at the Opus Dei. They seem very happy. No one bothers them and they bother no one else.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I think the following are excellent questions:

The laity is not allowed to pick and choose which bishop celebrates is confirmations and ordinations. The chapels inside the prelature would be served by the bishops of the prelature. Those outside of the prelature would be served by the bishop assigned by the Holy See. The Holy See can assign a bishop from the prelature, one from a religious order or one from a diocese. That’s at the discretion of the Holy Father. The idea of a prelature is that everyone has rules that everyone follows.

We already have such a paradigm at work in the Church and it works very well. The Opus Dei is a prelature. They serve their institutions, but no one elses. The Benedictines are autonomous abbeys. They serve their abbeys and the institutions attached to them, such as school, parishes and colleges and no one outside of that. Exempt religious have their own institutions and they serve them and no one outside of that, unless they are invited to do so. The military ordinariate is one huge diocese without walls. Their bishops take care of their needs, but not anyone outside of the military chapels or bases around the world. The Eastern Catholic dioceses overlap with the Latin Catholic diocesese. The bishops do not interfere with the people of each diocese, even when they have the church in the same building.

I think that the problem here is entitlement. Some of these groups feel that the laity is entitled to decide who confirms and ordains their members. This is against Canon Law. These tasks are assigned according to jurisdiction. The jurisdictions are defined by the Holy See.

The term “Novus Ordo Hierarchy” is getting old and offesnive. If they want reconciliation, they need to stop the rhetoric. Labeling is not going to make them many friends and will only turn away the few supporters they have among the hierarchy and religious.

I for one am very willing to support any group that wants an EF mass and any other traditional devotion and environment, but am not willing to be labled, nor will I lend assistance to those who do so. I don’t label them and I treat them with respect and kindness. I expect the same in return. If I can’t get the same in return, at least a polite silence would do.

Fraternally

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Dragonslayer]

Good grief. The SSPX has taken sensitive text about Jews off their website, Bishop Williamson has kept his mouth shut, and Bishop Fellay has called the Jews “our elder Brothers”

Rome has been in talks with the SSPX and has made them an offer. Meanwhile, Abe Hoffman (ADL) is popping off expressing his “concerns”. Yea right, he is expressing his disdain for Roman Catholicism is what he’s doing. Same with the blogs and media covering this. It’s exactly as Bishop Williamson said.

“The media have no idea what a real Catholic is. If they did, they would scream for his martyrdom, they would scream for his skin.”

Anti-Catholicism, the last acceptable prejudice. These groups that meddle in the Church’s business would do well to worry about the fires of Hell rather than worry about something that is none of their business and want no part of no matter how much appeasement they receive anyhow.

Very well said, At Trent. :clapping:

BTW, the press release from Abe Foxman & the ADL is full of too many errors to be taken seriously.

 

[PbloPicasso]

I’m truly interested to see what the outcome of this meeting. Hoping for a positive resolution is in my heart and mind. I just pray that whatever the decision those in authority seek the wisdom to obey if and when required.

 

[JReducation]

I’m truly interested to see what the outcome of this meeting. Hoping for a positive resolution is in my heart and mind. I just pray that whatever the decision those in authority seek the wisdom to obey if and when required.

 

[Areader]

Planty Pall,

But if you or others here care to visit the Ignis Ardens or Angelqueen forums, you will have an idea of how extreme the beliefs are of some of the SSPX followers. It isn’t pretty.

Definitely not pretty! Sounding brass, tinkling cymbals. Made me wish we could all be more Christian and less Catholic.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Denise1957;8377408:

Planty Pall,

But if you or others here care to visit the Ignis Ardens or Angelqueen forums, you will have an idea of how extreme the beliefs are of some of the SSPX followers. It isn’t pretty.

Definitely not pretty! Sounding brass, tinkling cymbals. Made me wish we could all be more Christian and less Catholic.

Thanks for the heads up. I think I’ll join in on those forums and look forward to talking to some staunch traditional Catholics with a strong faith.

 

[TrueLight]

Thanks for the heads up. I think I’ll join in on those forums and look forward to talking to some staunch traditional Catholics with a strong faith.

Hilarious! You’ll get tired of them soon, trust me.

 

[pnewton]

Areader;8382020:

Thanks for the heads up. I think I’ll join in on those forums and look forward to talking to some staunch traditional Catholics with a strong faith.

But faith in what, and who. The followers of Jim Jones had tremendous faith, just in the wrong person. Someone said earlier, “Made me wish we could all be more Christian and less Catholic.” I would say rather this whole splintering makes me wish we could all be more Catholic that we are Traditional, especially when the two are opposed.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

Dragonslayer;8385329:

But faith in what, and who. The followers of Jim Jones had tremendous faith, just in the wrong person. Someone said earlier, “Made me wish we could all be more Christian and less Catholic.”

I would say rather this whole splintering makes me wish we could all be more Catholic that we are Traditional, especially when the two are opposed.

It is categorically impossible for true Traditionalism and true Catholicism to be opposed. Only a corrupted interpretation of either can lead to conflict.
I’m sure you know that. I just want to say it for the benefit of anyone reading this who maybe does not. With regards to the environment in which I was brought up, it’s not something that would have been a given for me.