SSPX: Bishop Fellay says SSPX canno accept all of Vatican II reforms.

[japhy]

Don’t you find it odd that it took how many lines of footnotes to express and affirm what a previous Pope expressed in one single sentence, without the need for such voluminous notes in explanation? Don’t you also find it odd that such voluminous footnotes were deemed needed in order to affirm the Orthodoxy of a such a change? Wasn’t the Council going for simplicity of expression? How much more simple is one sentence in the definition of the Church?

Yes, I find it odd. But I find relief from the oddity in this: that the intent of the Council, despite its verbosity, was NOT to change the teaching, as the voluminous footnotes testify.

I will continue to believe that Jesus founded one Church, the Catholic Church; and that all those local churches which are in communion with the Church of Rome, under her Bishop, the Pope, belong to her; and that God, by His grace, has allowed that certain elements of the one Catholic Church may exist outside her walls so that those Christians outside the one Church may eventually be compelled to unity with her; and that Vatican II has not changed that.

What I mean by that last statement – and I’m sorry if I suffer from Vatican II verbosity! – is that members of a Christian community which accepts liturgical and hierarchical and sacramental natures as proper to “the Church” are far more likely to come into the Catholic Church than a non-liturgical, non-hierarchical, non-sacramental community.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

The reply is made: In the entire text what is demanded is adequately proclaimed. On the other hand it must also not be passed by in silence that in other Christian communities revealed truths and ecclesial elements are found” (Act Syn III/VII 15). Cf. also ibid pt. 5.

It was Richard John Neuhaus who said that if you are in support of the Church, the councils “refine” doctrine and if one is not in support of the Church, doctrine is “changed”. “The inclination entailed in the vow of obedience is to put the best possible interpretation on the teaching in question…to accent…the continuities rather than the discontinuities”. (Catholic Matters page 97)

 

[maurin]

Yes, I find it odd. But I find relief from the oddity in this: that the intent of the Council, despite its verbosity, was NOT to change the teaching, as the voluminous footnotes testify.

I do not find relief from the oddity. I look around at the NO and I see a glaringly lacking distinction between the Ministerial Priesthood and the Priesthood of the laity–minister of the Eucharist, readings ministry, hopitality ministry, etal, ad nauseum-- a huge reduction in references to the Angels and the Saints in the prayers of the Mass, barely any references–not all references but most play this aspect down–to the Sacrifice being offered by Christ through His Priest of Himself at the Altar. Couple this with Kaspar’s idea of ecumenism–finding the gifts inherent in the Orthodox Churches not in Communion with Rome and the ecclesial communities which proliferate here in the US and Europe–which is not to bring them all back to Rome, and I find this change of vocabulary in the definition of the Church alarming.

I will continue to believe that Jesus founded one Church, the Catholic Church; and that all those local churches which are in communion with the Church of Rome, under her Bishop, the Pope, belong to her;

as do I and all Catholics

and that God, by His grace, has allowed that certain elements of the one Catholic Church may exist outside her walls so that those Christians outside the one Church may eventually be compelled to unity with her

we see how well the dumbing down of Catholicism, the changing of the Form of the Mass and the changing of the Church’s definition has done for those communities separated from Her has worked. It has worked to empty our Churches…which Diocese announced it is closing a large percentage of its Parishes?

another problem with what you are saying here really depends on which “elements of the one Catholic Church” exist outside her walls? If there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, certainly these elements cannot be necessary to Salvation, can they? Because if they are, and they are found outside Her walls, then there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, is there not?

and that Vatican II has not changed that.

forgive me for scratching my head with widened eyes.

What I mean by that last statement – and I’m sorry if I suffer from Vatican II verbosity! – is that members of a Christian community which accepts liturgical and hierarchical and sacramental natures as proper to “the Church” are far more likely to come into the Catholic Church than a non-liturgical, non-hierarchical, non-sacramental community.

yes, of course we see how well it has worked.

Forgive me japhy, but I think your eyes are wide shut.

 

[pnewton]

I do not find relief from the oddity. …Forgive me japhy, but I think your eyes are wide shut.

This shows how far we still have to go with the some of the SSPX. Someone not seeing eye to eye does not make them blind. I think the only question is whether there will be a splintering of those who prefer to challenge from the outside as opposed to working from the inside.

 

[maurin]

This shows how far we still have to go with the some of the SSPX.

This shows how far we still have to go with the liberals and the modernists. And the uncatechized.

Someone not seeing eye to eye does not make them blind.

Someone who keeps the first and last sentence of a post, editing out everything else in between with no commentary in order to insult and denigrate does make them blind.

I think the only question is whether there will be a splintering of those who prefer to challenge from the outside as opposed to working from the inside.

I think the only question is whether or not it will take the Pope to return the Faithful to the Traditions of the Church, or if the Faithful themselves are smart enough to take stock of what is happening all around them for the past 40 years. There’s a reason that Pope Benedict is changing directions.

But of course, pnewton, if you ignore the content of my post except for the first and last sentences, well, there you go. Your conclusion is I called japhy blind. THere’s a difference between blindness and refusing to see. As your great response gives evidence.

 

[pnewton]

But of course, pnewton, if you ignore the content of my post except for the first and last sentences, well, there you go.

I read your whole post, of course. I quoted the way I did in adherence to forum rules which discourage long quotes.

I do not think the rhetoric of we are right and you are wrong will be persuasive, especially for the SSPX who has already defied a Pope once. Neither will it bear much weight here when laced with insults.

 

[maurin]

I read your whole post, of course. I quoted the way I did in adherence to forum rules which discourage long quotes.

I do not think the rhetoric of we are right and you are wrong will be persuasive, especially for the SSPX who has already defied a Pope once. Neither will it bear much weight here when laced with insults.

excuse me pnewton, but it seems that you are engaging in rough housing. Which is appropriate, I admit, for someone who cannot possibly respond to the issues which have been raised. Of course you cannot respond to them. You would have to admit that the ambiguity, and the errors which stemmed from the ambiguity of the Council’s documents–and the ambiguities in the Eucharistic Prayers-- have wreaked havoc on the Church.

 

[maurin]

I do not think the rhetoric of we are right and you are wrong will be persuasive, .

We are Catholic, pnewton. All of us. And we can’t all be right if our Parish Churches are emptying and closing because there is neither Priest nor worshipper inside them. The reforms have been a smashing success.

 

[pnewton]

We are Catholic, pnewton. All of us. And we can’t all be right if our Parish Churches are emptying and closing because there is neither Priest nor worshipper inside them. The reforms have been a smashing success.

That would be bad. I haven’t seen it. Is this a problem in the SSPX where you attend?

Let me also point out that truth is not measured in numbers. Prudent issues may be. But if that is what is at issue, we must accept disagreement graciously.

 

[Yours_Truly]

We are Catholic, pnewton. All of us. And we can’t all be right if our Parish Churches are emptying and closing because there is neither Priest nor worshipper inside them. The reforms have been a smashing success.

Maurin,

You really need to stop paying attention to your sense and your reason. WE ARE IN THE NEW SPRINGTIME, and have been for decades! Stop dening it. Everything is wonderful. The Seminaries, Churches, and convents are full. We are in the long awaited Civilisation of Luv proclaim by John Paul II the Great.

 

[maurin]

That would be bad. I haven’t seen it.

if ignorance is bliss…

Is this a problem in the SSPX where you attend?

But thoughtful response, yours, an intelligent one, way to get to the crux of the issues. And no fear of the issues in you, huh?

will you next degrade down to a “na na na na pooh pooh?”

 

[maurin]

Maurin,

You really need to stop paying attention to your sense and your reason. WE ARE IN THE NEW SPRINGTIME, and have been for decades! Stop dening it. Everything is wonderful. The Seminaries, Churches, and convents are full. We are in the long awaited Civilisation of Luv proclaim by John Paul II the Great.

awwwww

 

[japhy]

I do not find relief from the oddity. I look around at the NO…

And the liturgical reform that followed Vatican II was not necessarily the liturgical reform called for by Vatican II. Pope Benedict has said (or written) as much, and I agree. The Consilium whose job was to implement Sacrosanctum Concilium did a pretty laughable job of “implementing” it.

another problem with what you are saying here really depends on which “elements of the one Catholic Church” exist outside her walls? If there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, certainly these elements cannot be necessary to Salvation, can they? Because if they are, and they are found outside Her walls, then there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, is there not?

Is baptism salvific? Is an infant baptized by an Anglican “priest” saved or not? There is only one baptism, and the Church recognizes the baptism of heretics and schismatics. And that fact, of that one baptism into the one Body of Christ (although that member might soon go astray because of the community which has performed the sacrament), is an indicator (to me, at least…) that the one baptism is a force “impelling towards catholic unity”.

 

[Yours_Truly]

That would be bad. I haven’t seen it.

Maybe some stats will help you see more clearly…

** An index of Catholicism’s decline**

Patrick J. Buchanan

… Thirty-seven years after the end of the only church council of the 20th century, the jury has come in with its verdict: Vatican II appears to have been an unrelieved disaster for Roman Catholicism.

Liars may figure, but figures do not lie. Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis has pulled together a slim volume of statistics he has titled Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II.

His findings make prophets of Catholic traditionalists who warned that Vatican II would prove a blunder of historic dimensions, and those same findings expose as foolish and naive those who believed a council could reconcile Catholicism and modernity. When Pope John XXIII threw open the windows of the church, all the poisonous vapors of modernity entered, along with the Devil himself.

Here are Jones’ grim statistics of Catholicism’s decline:

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones’ statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, **while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002. **

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. **A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend. **

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. **By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus. **

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?

Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.

Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway. Jones’ statistics tell us the price of appeasement. . link

 

[maurin]

And the liturgical reform that followed Vatican II was not necessarily the liturgical reform called for by Vatican II. Pope Benedict has said (or written) as much, and I agree. The Consilium whose job was to implement Sacrosanctum Concilium did a pretty laughable job of “implementing” it.

Is it just a coincidence that the amibiguities in the Council’s documents lead to the liturgical reforms, and were the reasoning used by the Consilium for putting the reforms into practice?

Is baptism salvific? Is an infant baptized by an Anglican “priest” saved or not? There is only one baptism, and the Church recognizes the baptism of heretics and schismatics. And that fact, of that one baptism into the one Body of Christ (although that member might soon go astray because of the community which has performed the sacrament), is an indicator (to me, at least…) that the one baptism is a force “impelling towards catholic unity”.

good point. thanks. But there is still a contradiction…

In “Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church”, it is argued that where there are true bishops and a valid Mass, the Church of Christ is present. It says that the Eastern Orthodox churcdh and the other Oriental churches, which are not in Communion with Rome, are true and authentic particular Churches (is 'particular to be understood in oposition to "universal?), but ‘particular’ also describes a Diocese, yes? So if you afirm that people outside the Church are also genuine particular Churches, then what is the difference between a Diocese in Communion with Rome, and one outside of Communion with Rome? Doesn’t the “Note” also say that the Church of Christ is edified and brought to perfection in theese particular Churches outside of Communion with Rome? What is this supposed to mean, if The Church of Jesus Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, if The Church of Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church?

japhy, I appreciate the conversation. you are quite a reasonable fellow.

 

[pnewton]

Maybe some stats will help you see more clearly…

LOL We’ve been through these dozens of times and Ihave come to agree with Mark Twain on statistics. Besides, statitistics do not reveal anything about cause and effect.

 

[pnewton]

if ignorance is bliss…

But thoughtful response, yours, an intelligent one, way to get to the crux of the issues. And no fear of the issues in you, huh?

will you next degrade down to a “na na na na pooh pooh?”

I was wondering where you get your impressions of Masses that you do not attend.

 

[maurin]

I was wondering where you get your impressions of Masses that you do not attend.

I’m a cradle Catholic. Born and raised, catechized and received the Sacraments in the Novus Ordo. And a pretty regular NO Mass goer For 44 of my 45 years. Until I couldn’t stand it anymore.

I’m wondering why how after knowing me for so long, you’ve missed that. I’m a member here for a couple of years now. Go into the archives. I used to be more liberal than thou. and then He gave me the grace to take my head out of the sand.

 

[maurin]

Yours Truly,

who says you can’t ignore facts?

LOL We’ve been through these dozens of times and Ihave come to agree with Mark Twain on statistics. Besides, statitistics do not reveal anything about cause and effect.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yours Truly,

who says you can’t ignore facts?

Technically while the actual numbers in statistics are facts, the conclusions one reaches from them are not.

You are committing the classic logical error of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Just because something occurs before something else, that does not mean it is the cause. Every person who has died has done so sometime after ingesting water. By the same logic used to say that Vatican II is the cause of any decrease in the Church we can say that the ingestion of water kills.