SSPX...come home

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dee_S
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Dee_S

Guest
The purpose of this thread is to appeal to those who are in the SSPX or similar organizations to “come back to your Father’s house”.:highprayer:

Catholics who are presently ‘in’ or who ‘have been in’ and would like to contribute towards helping those who are still there to consider their position by:

Inviting discussion - sharing information and experiences that are constructive and charitable.

We are all members of the same family and it from this perspective that I would like to start from. :grouphug:
 
It’s an internal matter. They are “home,” otherwise there couldn’t be canonical penalties and restrictions applied to them.

I’ve never even been to an SSPX chapel, but this seems like a bad place to start.
 
I posted this today on another thread, and am making it my first post here to give an idea of where I am coming from. This Letter of Pope Paul VI that I provide extracts from, is to me a good starting point to understanding the complexities of Archbishop Lefebvre’s and the present SSPX’s probems within the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
The Orthodox don’t need authorization from the Catholic Church. Their bishops are valid and licit. They can grant such authorization to their priests. SSPX bishops are valid, but illicit. They can’t authorize anything, until they get canonical permission to exercise the ministry.

:thankyou:It always boils down to permission. Holy Mother Church will always be in charge. I can’t help thinking of this situation now in terms of a family. In this case, the SSPX, who legitimately belong to the family, have rebelled against the parent on serious issues, and refuse to acknowledge the way that this parent chooses to deal with what are, essential, family problems.
"Moreover, you act as if you had a particular role in this regard. But the mission of discerning and remedying the abuses is first of all Ours; it is the mission of all the bishops who work together with Us. Indeed We do not cease to raise Our voice against these excesses"

No child can arrogate to themselves the authority of the parent, and if they openly defy or challenge them, will have restrictions and censures as a result. This can be paralleled by the suspensions resulting in a lack of canonical status at present, and prior to this, the excommunications when they ‘went too far’ and consecrated their own bishops, which enabled them to continue their lone mission in defiance of instructions from the ‘parent’.
"You do not manifest repentance, even for the cause of your suspension a divines. You do not explicitly express your acceptance if the authority of the Second Vatican Council and of the Holy See - and this constitutes the basis of the problem - and you continue in those personal works of yours which the legitimate authority has expressly ordered you to suspend."

Not only does the parent have to protect and defend their authority, but, they also have a duty to the common good, which is to protect others from the wayward ideas and behaviours of the rebel.
**“This is why, with the full consciousness of Our duties, We say to you, brother, that you are in error. And with the full ardor of Our fraternal love, as also with all the weight of Our authority as the successor of Peter, We invite you to retract, to correct yourself and to cease from inflicting wounds upon the church of Christ”
**
So, while that parent is not ejecting that errant child from the family home, they are insisting that the child conform to the family rules before they can enjoy all the privileges and rights of obedient family members. Hence, the SSPX are not in “full communion” with the Church.
***“Therefore, dear brother, do not delay any longer in considering before God, with the keenest religious attention, this solemn adjuration of the humble but legitimate successor of Peter. May you measure the gravity of the Hour and take the only decision that befits a son of the church. This is Our hope, this is Our prayer.” ***
**
**From the Vatican, October 11,1976
**PAULUS PP. VI **
jloughnan.tripod.com/pvi2lefebvre.htm
(This letter was sent to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre one month after he visited the Pope on September 11, 1976. The archbishop had rejected parts of the Vatican II decrees and some of the subsequent post-conciliar enactments of the Holy See and had been the object of widespread publicity as he celebrated Tridentine Masses in various parts of Europe. In June, 1976, the archbishop had defied a direct order from the Pope not to ordain seminarians at the seminary he founded in Econe, Switzerland. In this letter, the Pope told the archbishop that while pluralism in the church is legitimate, it must be a licit pluralism rooted in obedience. The Pope said the archbishop, rather than practicing obedience, had propagated and organized a rebellion. This, he added, “is the essential issue” in the archbishop’s regard. In this letter, the Pope outlined his conditions for rectifying matters, including a call for a declaration from the archbishop affirming adherence to Vatican II, a declaration that, among other things, retracts accusations or insinuations leveled against the Pope. The text of the Pope’s letter has been taken from Origins, NC Documentary Service, December 16, 1976.)
 
It looked like they were going to normalize until very recently. Apparently most SSPX desire to set up their own religion. Otherwise, why would they turn down the offer for a Prelature? Is their raison d’etre to forever sit on the sidelines and critizice? That’s how many Protestant denominations were founded. Henry thought he was still Catholic the way SSPX believe they are still Catholic. Many Anglicans think they are catholic; but the reality is different. In a hundred years, SSPX’s ties to Rome will just be historic in the same way the Lutherans and Anglicans are.
 
I am glad that you posted this. Because I am an ex-Traditionalist. I suggest that you check out my forum that I made the other day entitled ‘Is “Tradition” The Truth?’ it explains my story of how I came out of Traditionalism and what errors take place within it. I have met many SSPX’ers in my day even though I never really was one myself (I grew up going to an independent chapel). Most of the ones that I’ve come into contact with are very stubborn and aren’t really willing to listen to anyone who’s not a Traditionalist.
Typical Traditionalist: “Well, it’s coming from a Modernist (modernist is the title they give anyone Catholic that follows Vatican II) so it’s got to be wrong.” I say the best way to deal with them is to deal with them the same way that we deal with Protestants. Traditionalists privately interpret church documents out of context to create their false notions of church teaching the same way that Protestants privately interpret the Bible out of context to create their false doctrines. We need to read to them church documents that they misinterpret “in context” to show them the error of their ways. But most of all, we should pray for them. We should offer daily rosaries for them and for the return of the SSPX to Rome and we should have prayers offered for their intentions at Mass.

God bless
 
Are SSPX bishops and priests recognized as valid priests and bishops by Rome?
Yes, they are certainly valid; however, they don’t have faculties (which can only be denied to them if they are Catholic).

It’s not ideal. I would never deny that.
 
It’s an internal matter. They are “home,” otherwise there couldn’t be canonical penalties and restrictions applied to them.

I’ve never even been to an SSPX chapel, but this seems like a bad place to start.
😊 very good point and I stand corrected. Yes they are “home” in the true sense, but what I was thinking of is that they are ‘without’ in the position they have taken against the head of the family and the members who are faithful to his authority.

My apologies:(
 
but what I was thinking of is that they are ‘without’
in the position they have taken against the head of the family and the members who are faithful to his authority.

I might not state it that way, but that’s probably a much more fair point.

Having said all that, I wish this wasn’t a discussion we had to have in the first place…
 
The purpose of this thread is to appeal to those who are in the SSPX or similar organizations to “come back to your Father’s house”.:highprayer:

Catholics who are presently ‘in’ or who ‘have been in’ and would like to contribute towards helping those who are still there to consider their position by:

Inviting discussion - sharing information and experiences that are constructive and charitable.

We are all members of the same family and it from this perspective that I would like to start from. :grouphug:
I’m not sure they would would feel very welcome here, when even the Traditionalists like me that are “in” don’t even feel welcome.

The group hug seems a little hollow, when only two posts later you bring up the full list of very charges leveled against them by Pope Paul VI that drove them out of the Church in the first place.

Then two more posts and you get an “ex-Traditionalist” who generalizes all traditionalists in a negative, uncharitable (and inaccurate) way.

… and then it derails in the usual manner.

Oh yeah, the SSPX is going to flock to this thread…:rolleyes:

Actually the best Catholics to dialogue with the SSPX are the Traditionalists that put up with the abuse and stayed “inside.” But CAF is not the forum for that kind of dialogue. We do have very good dialogue with SSPX - just not on this forum
 
I am glad that you posted this. Because I am an ex-Traditionalist. I suggest that you check out my forum that I made the other day entitled ‘Is “Tradition” The Truth?’ it explains my story of how I came out of Traditionalism and what errors take place within it.
Thank you. Please post a link to this - it sounds very interesting and I’m sure plenty like you and myself (ex-SSPX) would like to read it.

I have met many SSPX’ers in my day even though I never really was one myself (I grew up going to an independent chapel). Most of the ones that I’ve come into contact with are very stubborn and aren’t really willing to listen to anyone who’s not a Traditionalist.
I can vouch for that - 😊 once upon a time I was guilty of that too

Typical Traditionalist: “Well, it’s coming from a Modernist (modernist is the title they give anyone Catholic that follows Vatican II) so it’s got to be wrong.” I say the best way to deal with them is to deal with them the same way that we deal with Protestants. Traditionalists privately interpret church documents out of context to create their false notions of church teaching the same way that Protestants privately interpret the Bible out of context to create their false doctrines.
There are many similarities - private judgement never a good thing.

We need to read to them church documents that they misinterpret “in context” to show them the error of their ways.
I have plenty to contribute, starting with the above Letter of Pau VI - it is worth quoting from, so take a look…

But most of all, we should pray for them. We should offer daily rosaries for them and for the return of the SSPX to Rome and we should have prayers offered for their intentions at Mass.
Absolutely …

God bless:)
 
Yes, they are certainly valid; however, they don’t have faculties (which can only be denied to them if they are Catholic).

It’s not ideal. I would never deny that.
👍 The link below has some very good citations - so dont’ write it off because it comes from wiki:)
2009 declaration of no canonical status and no legitimate ministry

In his letter of 10 March 2009 concerning his remission of the excommunication of the four bishops of the Society of St Pius X, Pope Benedict XVI reaffirmed: “Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”[17]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_situation_of_the_Society_of_St._Pius_X
 
I’m not sure they would would feel very welcome here, when even the Traditionalists like me that are “in” don’t even feel welcome.

The group hug seems a little hollow, when only two posts later you bring up the full list of very charges leveled against them by Pope Paul VI that drove them out of the Church in the first place.

Then two more posts and you get an “ex-Traditionalist” who generalizes all traditionalists in a negative, uncharitable (and inaccurate) way.

… and then it derails in the usual manner.

Oh yeah, the SSPX is going to flock to this thread…:rolleyes:

Actually the best Catholics to dialogue with the SSPX are the Traditionalists that put up with the abuse and stayed “inside.” But CAF is not the forum for that kind of dialogue. We do have very good dialogue with SSPX - just not on this forum
Hey, thanks for posting!🙂 And my :grouphug: is genuine. I didn’t start this thread to be contentious. Hard to believe, perhaps, but seeing as you’re here - give it a try. Appreciate any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut - even that of the doubtful - perhaps they won’t flock, but some might take a look in, and maybe it helps them. I didn’t have the benefit of CAF when I was ‘inside’ and sure wish I had…
 
Hey, thanks for posting!🙂 And my :grouphug: is genuine. I didn’t start this thread to be contentious. Hard to believe, perhaps, but seeing as you’re here - give it a try. Appreciate any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut - even that of the doubtful - perhaps they won’t flock, but some might take a look in, and maybe it helps them. I didn’t have the benefit of CAF when I was ‘inside’ and sure wish I had…
Don’t get me wrong. It’s not you, and it’s a noble attempt, Although posting the Paul VI decree as a starting point is certainly off-putting to the SSPX.

The problem is the forum. As soon as you defend anything legitimately traditional, the trad-busters swoop out of the rafters to accuse, defame, and attack. No SSPX is going to come anywhere near this forum, and BTW, most of them (if not all) I know don’t accept the Second Vatican Council as valid. That would be enough to give some folks in this forum a stroke.

Perhaps if you watched the thread like a hawk for trouble, and got the moderator to squash any inflammatory dialogue, personal attacks, accusations etc. you might have a shot.

Like I said, there is dialogue between traditional members of the Church and the SSPX, but it’s another forum in another place, where we can have truly civil and productive dialogue.
 
Why?

Why does The Church continue to have these people? Look to 500 years ago. Why can’t people learn from history?

(Suppressing my Catholic rage)… Which isn’t rage ON Catholicism, it’s the anger I get from seeing things that are against The Church.
 
Why does The Church continue to have these people? Look to 500 years ago. Why can’t people learn from history?
Again, they’re not Protestants. From their perspective, they’re fighting out of love for the Church - including the 1900 years before Vatican II. They’re not rebelling and calling for a revolution.

These comparisons just aren’t helpful.
 
It looked like they were going to normalize until very recently. Apparently most SSPX desire to set up their own religion. Otherwise, why would they turn down the offer for a Prelature? Is their raison d’etre to forever sit on the sidelines and critizice? That’s how many Protestant denominations were founded. Henry thought he was still Catholic the way SSPX believe they are still Catholic. Many Anglicans think they are catholic; but the reality is different. In a hundred years, SSPX’s ties to Rome will just be historic in the same way the Lutherans and Anglicans are.
At this point, anything is possible. This statement by Archbishop Muller (who Bishop Fellay/SSPX has accused of heresy…which is unfounded) head of the CDF - is something of a “putting his foot down” in defining to the two groups where heresy can lie:

MULLER-CONTINUITY Nov-29-2012 (400 words) xxxi

Reading Vatican II as break with tradition is heresy, prefect says


XArchbishop Muller (CNS file/Paul Haring)

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Traditionalist and progressive camps that see the Second Vatican Council as breaking with the truth both espouse a “heretical interpretation” of the council and its aims, said the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Code:
   What Pope Benedict XVI has termed "the hermeneutic of reform, of  renewal in continuity" is the "only possible interpretation according to  the principles of Catholic theology," Archbishop Gerhard Muller said in  remarks published Nov. 29.
“Outside this sole orthodox interpretation unfortunately exists a heretical interpretation, that is, a hermeneutic of rupture, (found) both on the progressive front and on the traditionalist” side, the archbishop said.
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205009.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top