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Timothy_Garber
Guest
Sigh, I know…
But I am just still enraged that they are running away from the Truth, and the worst part is that they think that they are GOING to the truth.
Sigh…
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But I am just still enraged that they are running away from the Truth, and the worst part is that they think that they are GOING to the truth.
Sigh…
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Dee_S
Guest
Don’t get me wrong. It’s not you, and it’s a noble attempt, Although posting the Paul VI decree as a starting point is certainly off-putting to the SSPX.
:thankyou:Sorry, not meant to be, I just saw it as a good comparison to the situation from authority in the family perspective and the appeals & admonishments that a caring parent has to make in those situations.
The problem is the forum. As soon as you defend anything legitimately traditional, the trad-busters swoop out of the rafters to accuse, defame, and attack. No SSPX is going to come anywhere near this forum, and BTW, most of them (if not all) I know don’t accept the Second Vatican Council as valid. That would be enough to give some folks in this forum a stroke.
oh my…hope not! but what you say is true, their point of departure is Vatican II which they perceive to be to blame for all the abuses and the departure from tradition. It is this deep mistrust of the Church that I hope we can remedy here to some degree at least.
Perhaps if you watched the thread like a hawk for trouble, and got the moderator to squash any inflammatory dialogue, personal attacks, accusations etc. you might have a shot.
I’m going to give it a good try and I hope the moderator cuts us some slack here, as we know it is a topic that goes deep and is naturally going to touch raw nerves in all of us, so a variety of expressions of this are to be expected.
I mean, imagine this in the family scenario -:slapfight: there would be lots of hectic things said and lots forgiven or overlooked - which could never be in dealings with outsiders. Hopefully we can all tolerate each other’s viewpoints, not matter how heated. As they say, “if you can’t stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen” - it is a thread that caters to specifics.
Like I said, there is dialogue between traditional members of the Church and the SSPX, but it’s another forum in another place, where we can have truly civil and productive dialogue.
Aha, keywords - traditional members and SSPX - there is a sympathy of understanding there, whereas this thread will provide for a broader view, and more divergent posters who are able to come in from any perspective - as a result, it may not be as civil or produce the best dialogue - but I sincerely hope it will be productive.
I don’t really go in for too much ‘emotional censorship’ and if you look at it head on, most people get angry & lash out, because they perceive that someone is trying to hurt/insult them - it’s really just a natural reaction that can be overcome…by talking it out.
:takeoff:
here’s hoping…
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Dee_S
Guest
:yeah_me: an ‘award’ for true family spirit…if you did not care, you would not get angry.
I can remember when I was in the SSPX having very similar feelings about my own family, and expressing them too
(they must have loved me lots to put up with years of my perspective) as I thought they were going away from the Truth.
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gentle_atheist
Guest
Why did you leave?
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pnewton
Guest
Regardless of the semantic arguments, I will pray with Dee that all the SSPX priests be reconciled with Rome.
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Dee_S
Guest
:thankyou:…we’re in good company
APOSTOLIC LETTER "MOTU PROPRIO"ECCLESIAE UNITATEM
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI
CONCERNING THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION ECCLESIA DEI
“1. The duty to safeguard the unity of the Church with concern to offer help to all in order to respond appropriately to this vocation and divine grace is incumbent in particular on the Successor of the Apostle Peter, who is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of the unity both of the Bishops and of the faithful (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, n. 23; First Ecumenical Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ *Pastor Aeternus, *chap. 3: DS 3060). The supreme and fundamental priority of the Church in every epoch to lead humankind to the encounter with God must be encouraged by the commitment to achieve a witness of faith common to all Christians”
“5. Precisely because the problems that must now be addressed with the Society are essentially doctrinal in nature, I have decided 21 years after the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei and in conformity with what I had proposed (cf. *ibid., *art. 11 781) to rethink the structure of the Commission Ecclesia Dei, linking it closely to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”
“7. With this decision I have wished in particular to show fatherly solicitude to the “Society of St Pius X” in order that it rediscover full communion with the Church.”
"I address to all a pressing invitation to pray the Lord tirelessly, through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “ut unum sint”.
*Given in Rome, at St Peter’s, on 2 July 2009, the fifth year of Our Pontificate. *
BENEDICTUS PP. XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_letters/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apl_20090702_ecclesiae-unitatem_en.html
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Dee_S
Guest
I have been giving more reflection to why I used “…come home” and came to the conclusion that it is still similar to a situation in a family, in that, yes…they (the SSPX) will always be a member of the family, but given their present status, it is as if they are not living in the same house. So the invitation to “come back to your Father’s house” does has relevance.
My apologies
In this particular ‘family’ or rather Mystical Body, the Pope is the final authority here on earth and we never grow up enough to say we know better than him what is good for us, or for him and the other members.
In fact, it is not intended that we are ever grown up enough to leave “his house” and remain members of the body/family while on our journey here below.
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RadRomCath
Guest
Most of “these people” are Roman Catholics who believe and practice Catholicism as it was for some 1,960 years. I have been in churches/parishes in full communion with Rome my entire life. I struggle to suppress my Catholic rage at things against the Church too–things suchs as all the modern novelties, wishy-washiness, permissiveness, and double-talk. Frankly, I have one foot out the door at this point. I have imagined what I have been missing my whole life (I’m 40) and can now see even much more than I had previously imagined. I cannot imagine for the life of me why anybody would leave traditional Catholicism for the irreverence and confusion peddled by the modern Catholic Church.
And the opinions I hold (as 10thCrusader pointed out) are not respected in modern Catholicism nor on this forum. A thread discussing the TLM was yanked a day or 2 ago. Any heretic, moslem, jew, etc. is free to question and discuss. But somebody tie up the traditionalists and throw them back in the dungeon for speaking up, questioning, and discussing.
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EcceAgnusDei
Guest
Are you angry at the Eastern Orthodox, protestants, and non-Christians out there, too?
- PAX
Ephesians 4:26 Be angry, and sin not. Let not the sun go down upon your anger.
“Snoopy come home!” - Charlie Brown (I couldn’t help myself.)
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RadRomCath
Guest
I doubt it. To be angry at them would be inconsistent with the examples of 2 Popes at the Assisi Group-Hug festivities.
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Dee_S
Guest
Sad to say, but since leaving the SSPX about 10 years ago, I have faced pretty much the same thing as you say above. I spent a while ‘parish hopping’ and settled at the most conservative in our diocese. Problem here is the music. e.g. Last week the youth choir crooned out the old Beatles hit, Let it Be, during the communion. Well… it wasn’t only my head that was turning around to give them cross stares, almost half the congregation was doing the same this time. Unfortunately, our parish priest actually enjoys this type of music.So I ‘hear’ you loud and clear. We all long for that reverence and mystery that our Pope so clearly wishes to restore to the Mass - but as we know, is resisted by those who for their own reasons seem to be allergic and/or opposed to. Not everyone is the Pope’s man out there.
I agree, no one in their right mind (or spirit) would leave a reverent mass for the kind that is ‘performed’ in some places. But to leave and go to mass with any organization that is not in good standing with Rome, cannot be a step in the right direction.
It would be better to attend a weekday mass regularly, which on the whole are quiet and lack the Sunday bells & whistles, to restore peace to the soul. Then perhaps go to the early Mass on a Sunday, in the hopes of avoiding the full onslaught.
If I can help it, no one who comes to talk here will get unjustly set upon. There are some very real issues out there for us sheep - one’s perception is one’s reality - and we can learn to make the best of some bad situations
http://www.johnhartstudios.com/wizardofid/strips/2009/december/wiz121409lkd.gif
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pnewton
Guest
Not the topic. There is no need to try and start a new controversy. This thread is about the SSPX.
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Dee_S
Guest
…sometimes it’s ok to shake hands too
(must be the ‘pilgrim’ outfit)http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjwfWdo0-csEyRQOCp0UUNQxsmkLdRFLhbPb2sChUESuoHMZIw
" Therefore I have consciously invited delegates of this third group to our meeting in Assisi, which does not simply bring together representatives of religious institutions. Rather it is a case of being together on a journey towards truth, a case of taking a decisive stand for human dignity and a case of common engagement for peace against every form of destructive force. Finally I would like to assure you that the Catholic Church will not let up in her fight against violence, in her commitment for peace in the world. We are animated by the common desire to be “pilgrims of truth, pilgrims of peace”.
***ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
AT THE MEETING FOR PEACE IN ***ASSISI
Assisi*, Basilica of Saint Mary of the Angels
*Thursday, 27 October 2011
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mgsk
Guest
This is almost unbelievable. I would, however, like to point out that these people seem to have just as much need (if not more) to be “called home” as the SSPX. I’m sorry, but playing an inane pop song during what is supposed to be the ultimate and most sublime moment of our liturgy? It would almost seem incompatible with a belief in the Real Presence - or at least having given sufficient thought to the implications of that belief.
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RadRomCath
Guest
Hell yes it’s the topic!!! This kind of heresy is what traditionalists oppose!!!
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Dee_S
Guest
Inane is the right word. Just because the lyrics at one part say “…mother mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom…Let it be” they think it justifies them singing it.
Quite agree, but think they are the ones who stay at home and ‘trash the house’ while the parents are not there. Of course, the pp is responsible for his parish and what goes on there. Suppose the idea is that we sheep must complain, to mostly unsympathetic bishops, who in the end do nothing about it.
Ok, let’s be fair here. In traditional circles one is also not able to criticize the pp, perhaps even less so, and see the stony wall you meet should you dare complain to his bishop or superior.
At the end of the day, it is not easy to be the ones who sit in the pews.
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Dee_S
Guest
OK…if you want to ‘talk’ here, you have to prove your words. Besides the trad sites or magazines that propose that - can you offer anything else to back up that accusation?Recall that the SSPX recently accused Archbishop Mueller, Prefect of the CDF of being a heretic - lengthy articles on their websites etc…and the result…they look silly because they cannot make it stick. When anyone, even me who is no theologian or academic for that matter, studies the points they accuse on, it becomes clear that it was a foolish attack that did not earn them any brownie points.
BTW I also believed all that for many years - read a few of the speeches of the Pope’s about Assissi and why they do it - you may see it from another angle
opcorn:
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pnewton
Guest
There is no need profanity. Are traditionalists also opposed to courtesty and integrity? I hesitate to even say “traditionalists”. Most do not adhere to the stereotype being portrayed by your posts. I would encourage you to avoid using the word "heresy in conjunction with the popes (referenced in your previous post).
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Melchior_1
Guest
Yup, because adding the word “hell” when not referring to the place the damned go to in sentence will certainly help get your point across.
“modern Catholic Church”? I was under the impression there is only one Catholic Church, with Pope Benedict XVI as the Successor of Peter.
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