SSPX communique to Rome

[TrueLight]

As a follow up to this, I would like to know if the Fraternity or St Peter advise people to attend the local new Mass when they are not available on certain days of obligation?

No matter how the FSSP feels about the new mass, I can’t imagine they would advise the laity to commit mortal sin. They would not be allowed to exist as a Society of Apostolic life if they were advising such things.

If it is really difficult to attend that Mass, then you offer it up.

 

[Iotaunum]

No matter how the FSSP feels about the new mass, I can’t imagine they would advise the laity to commit mortal sin. They would not be allowed to exist as a Society of Apostolic life if they were advising such things.

If it is really difficult to attend that Mass, then you offer it up.

I don’t want to argue whether this would constitute a mortal sin. By “then you offer it up” do you mean I should just attend even though I dislike it? Well if so, I understand what you are saying, but this type of sacrafice is not an option for me. It may be hard to understand where I am comming from, but in my parish the priest throws the eucharist about and picks it up in handfulls like he is ditributing snacks. This is unbearable for me. I likewise cannot bear the laity walking all around the altar, opening tabernacles, people chewing gum on the way to communion and eating it as if it were nothing. More than bad sermons, it is heartbreaking for me to watch what I consider irreverace around our Lords body and blood. I don’t feel in conscience I can attend, and I have attended funerals and weddings since I started going to the SSPX Masses and it has gotten in everyway worse. I cannot mention here some of the things going on.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Very interesting, thanks. This continues to open up for discussion why Archbishop Lefebvre felt compelled to ‘restore Tradition.’

The Archbishop fathered the opposition to the New Mass, which has yet to subside, all based on what. As Justin point out above, it is difficult to tell the difference between what the two.

Not exactly. I was pointing out the similarity between the old Mass and a New Mass celebrated in Latin, more especially sung in Latin, with Gregorian Chant, incense, and all the other rites that are specifically ‘Catholic’. But this is a rare beast. The New Mass as it is actually celebrated in many parishes is another fish again.

To make my meaning clearer, the similarity I was looking at concerns the way the Mass celebrated, how it appears to an onlooker, and not its actual text. The text is not at the end of the day a make-or-break issue, but the way Mass is celebrated, and the kind of creativity parish liturgists apply to it, is.

 

[JReducation]

Realistically, I think most people know that the SSPX will continue as they always have done regardless of the outcome of the talks and most of the faithful attending their Masses will also. I think the only people affected by a bad outcome would be those with one foot in the SSPX and the other in their local parish church.

No, they would not continue as they were before. Before there were several differences.

1. The bishops were excommunicated, not the laity.
2. When the excommunications were lifted, it the bishops and priests were in an irregular status, not the laity.
3. If the SSPX goes into schism, any layman who chooses the SSPX over the mainstream Church will also be in schism… Something big will have changed. These people will no longer be Catholic. They will have severed their ties with the Catholic Church. This is not “life as usual” even though it may look that way on the surface.

As to stay at home rather than go to an OF mass, that’s not an option that the Church gives. Therefore, no priest has the authority to trump the Church and give such an option. That in itself constitutes a schismatic act. The priest who makes such a statement, while he may not be in schism, is creating his on laws. That is just a illegal, irresponsible and immoral as the priest that says to someone that it’s OK to use birth control. Except that freely missing Sunday mass is higher on the hierarchy of sin than birth control.

Being unable to attend mass is when you’re sick, have no transportation, the weather does not allow it, there is political turmoil and it’s not safe, you’re too young or too old to go alone. Those are legitimate reasons. “I cringe because of what I see at mass is not a morally acceptable reason to miss mass. The mass is about me worshiping God, not about God and priest pleasing me.”

I’m sure that Mary and John cringed at the foot of the cross, but they were there. There are millions of Catholics who cringe at different things that happen at mass or in their parishes, but we bit the bullet and sit through it. In a way, one is giving oneself a dispensation that the Church does not allow. Here again, one is creating laws that don’t exist.

We must always be careful to worship with reverence; however, we must also be very careful never to trump the Church by overruling her laws.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JReducation]

Not exactly. I was pointing out the similarity between the old Mass and a New Mass celebrated in Latin, more especially sung in Latin, with Gregorian Chant, incense, and all the other rites that are specifically ‘Catholic’. But this is a rare beast. The New Mass as it is actually celebrated in many parishes is another fish again.

To make my meaning clearer, the similarity I was looking at concerns the way the Mass celebrated, how it appears to an onlooker, and not its actual text. The text is not at the end of the day a make-or-break issue, but the way Mass is celebrated, and the kind of creativity parish liturgists apply to it, is.

It is objectively a mortal sin.

Sunday obligation – grave matter

I’m properly catechized – full knowledge

I’m choosing not to go, because . . . – full freedom

---

Only the Church can make canon law — grave matter

I know this — full knowledge

I am making my own law for me – full freedom

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I don’t want to argue whether this would constitute a mortal sin. By “then you offer it up” do you mean I should just attend even though I dislike it? Well if so, I understand what you are saying, but this type of sacrafice is not an option for me. It may be hard to understand where I am comming from, but in my parish the priest throws the eucharist about and picks it up in handfulls like he is ditributing snacks. This is unbearable for me. I likewise cannot bear the laity walking all around the altar, opening tabernacles, people chewing gum on the way to communion and eating it as if it were nothing. More than bad sermons, it is heartbreaking for me to watch what I consider irreverace around our Lords body and blood. I don’t feel in conscience I can attend, and I have attended funerals and weddings since I started going to the SSPX Masses and it has gotten in everyway worse. I cannot mention here some of the things going on.

To met your obligation your must attend Mass. You don’t have to receive communion (from the priest or an EMHC). You certainly don’t have to observe or note anyone else’s behavior.

You come to Mass - maybe the earliest of the day because that is usually the quietest – you sit in a corner and you follow the liturgy in your hand missal. During communion, you kneel with your eyes closed and pray or say your rosary.

I just can’t believe that any tradional Catholic would counsel a mortal sin rather than attending and offering your prayers and discomfort for the salvation of the souls present.

I have attended some wacky Masses in my lifetime rather than miss Sunday Mass. Thankfully, my local parish and the other few that I attend regularly, while offering only the OF Mass, are reverant and orthodox.

As I said farther up thread, with tools like masstimes.org and considering how far some boast that they travel to get to their Mass of choice, I have a hard time believing that all but the most isloated Catholics in the US, Canada, and Europe at least, cannot find a reverant or at least tolerable Mass every Sunday. In the rest of the world I doubt there are enough SSPX chapels or EF Masses to have the question even come up.

 

[GloriaMaria]

I have heard this before and it is just so sad. I cannot see how someone who says they are for tradition and turning back the clock, if you will, to a time before VII, would ever counsel a Catholic to deliberately miss Sunday Mass.

You may say the local OF general has bad homilies, horrible music, etc. But when you say it is preferable to stay home than to attend a Sunday Mass there on occasion, you are saying that you really don’t believe the locall parish is actually Catholic even though it is in full communion with Rome. That is jsut so astounding to me and so incrediably sad.

Just to clarify: I was speaking generally about the state of affairs in our chapel, and what our priest advises and what people here generally believe. I was not trying to divulge whether our own family does or does not think in this way. You may have been speaking generally also, but I don’t want to give you cause to judge us, personally, nor for anyone else reading to think that I as a poster have stated the above about the OF. I’ve only posted a few times! God Bless.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Just to clarify: I was speaking generally about the state of affairs in our chapel, and what our priest advises and what people here generally believe. I was not trying to divulge whether our own family does or does not think in this way. You may have been speaking generally also, but I don’t want to give you cause to judge us, personally, nor for anyone else reading to think that I as a poster have stated the above about the OF. I’ve only posted a few times! God Bless.

So sorry GloriaMaria, I did not mean to insinuate that your family chose to sin in this area. I was also speaking generally and meant the universal “you” (probably would have better to have used “one”) rather than the specific “you”.

 

[GloriaMaria]

To met your obligation your must attend Mass. You don’t have to receive communion (from the priest or an EMHC). You certainly don’t have to observe or note anyone else’s behavior.

You come to Mass - maybe the earliest of the day because that is usually the quietest – you sit in a corner and you follow the liturgy in your hand missal. During communion, you kneel with your eyes closed and pray or say your rosary.

I just can’t believe that any tradional Catholic would counsel a mortal sin rather than attending and offering your prayers and discomfort for the salvation of the souls present.

I have attended some wacky Masses in my lifetime rather than miss Sunday Mass. Thankfully, my local parish and the other few that I attend regularly, while offering only the OF Mass, are reverant and orthodox.

As I said farther up thread, with tools like masstimes.org and considering how far some boast that they travel to get to their Mass of choice, I have a hard time believing that all but the most isloated Catholics in the US, Canada, and Europe at least, cannot find a reverant or at least tolerable Mass every Sunday. In the rest of the world I doubt there are enough SSPX chapels or EF Masses to have the question even come up.

Actually, there are many places in Canada that have isolated Mass situations. Only one OF, for instance, for two or more hours drive.

That doesn’t change your point, but should be noted that geographical isolation does exist, somewhat commonly.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

It is objectively a mortal sin.

Sunday obligation – grave matter

I’m properly catechized – full knowledge

I’m choosing not to go, because . . . – full freedom

---

Only the Church can make canon law — grave matter

I know this — full knowledge

I am making my own law for me – full freedom

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Sorry Brother, is this meant for my post?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Actually, there are many places in Canada that have isolated Mass situations. Only one OF, for instance, for two or more hours drive.

That doesn’t change your point, but should be noted that geographical isolation does exist, somewhat commonly.

Thank you for that reminder. I know we have posters on these boards in that situation, so I should know better.

However, as you say, it doesn’t necessarily chnage the point. There were many iosolated places in past times (long before VII) when the inhabitants of a certain place just had to put up with whichever priest was assigned to their parish likely to stay there until he died. The obligation to attend at Mass on Sunday was still there and is still here for us.

PS - I know we are not arguing.

 

[GloriaMaria]

No, they would not continue as they were before. Before there were several differences.

1. The bishops were excommunicated, not the laity.
2. When the excommunications were lifted, it the bishops and priests were in an irregular status, not the laity.
3. If the SSPX goes into schism, any layman who chooses the SSPX over the mainstream Church will also be in schism… Something big will have changed. These people will no longer be Catholic. They will have severed their ties with the Catholic Church. This is not “life as usual” even though it may look that way on the surface.

As to stay at home rather than go to an OF mass, that’s not an option that the Church gives. Therefore, no priest has the authority to trump the Church and give such an option. That in itself constitutes a schismatic act. The priest who makes such a statement, while he may not be in schism, is creating his on laws. That is just a illegal, irresponsible and immoral as the priest that says to someone that it’s OK to use birth control. Except that freely missing Sunday mass is higher on the hierarchy of sin than birth control.

Being unable to attend mass is when you’re sick, have no transportation, the weather does not allow it, there is political turmoil and it’s not safe, you’re too young or too old to go alone. Those are legitimate reasons. “I cringe because of what I see at mass is not a morally acceptable reason to miss mass. The mass is about me worshiping God, not about God and priest pleasing me.”

I’m sure that Mary and John cringed at the foot of the cross, but they were there. There are millions of Catholics who cringe at different things that happen at mass or in their parishes, but we bit the bullet and sit through it. In a way, one is giving oneself a dispensation that the Church does not allow. Here again, one is creating laws that don’t exist.

We must always be careful to worship with reverence; however, we must also be very careful never to trump the Church by overruling her laws.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Well noted, Brother.

A question for you. What then is the situation right now for someone who attends the Society chapel to meet the Sunday obligation. For instance, there would obviously be available a diocesan OF Mass as well, but the choice is made to attend the SSPX Mass. Confessions? Marriages?

By “situation” I mean what type of sin is committed, if any.

 

[TrueLight]

I don’t want to argue whether this would constitute a mortal sin. By “then you offer it up” do you mean I should just attend even though I dislike it? Well if so, I understand what you are saying, but this type of sacrafice is not an option for me. It may be hard to understand where I am comming from, but in my parish the priest throws the eucharist about and picks it up in handfulls like he is ditributing snacks. This is unbearable for me. I likewise cannot bear the laity walking all around the altar, opening tabernacles, people chewing gum on the way to communion and eating it as if it were nothing. More than bad sermons, it is heartbreaking for me to watch what I consider irreverace around our Lords body and blood. I don’t feel in conscience I can attend, and I have attended funerals and weddings since I started going to the SSPX Masses and it has gotten in everyway worse. I cannot mention here some of the things going on.

If you are currently attending an SSPX mass, then stay there. IMHO, until the Vatican says the SSPX is is out of the Church, then it is a valid mass. Some may not agree with me.

Just maintain a prayerful, balanced attitude and do not get caught up in some of the rhetoric espoused by some of the people.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

If you are currently attending an SSPX mass, then stay there. IMHO, until the Vatican says the SSPX is is out of the Church, then it is a valid mass. Some may not agree with me.

There are some guidelines about when attending an SSPX Mass is acceptable. One is that the person is going because they like the EF, not because they hate the OF (translated out of church-talk. )

 

[pnewton]

My guess is that the Catholics who visit CAF take their religion seriously which means they already know it or have informed themselves about it. The Catholics I’m thinking of are those who go to church on Sunday but casually discard any Church teaching that is inconvenient and out of step with secular thinking, for example the ban against artificial contraception.

Ah, sin. I will agree that all Catholics sin, though I do not think the SSPX in their chapels by people sinning contrary to Church teaching. The point remains, the teaching is orthodox and pretty much most of the Catholic I know have no issue with knowing what is right and wrong.

 

[JReducation]

Sorry Brother, is this meant for my post?

Yes and no. It’s really for the priest who said that one should stay home rather than go to an OF mass.

Well noted, Brother.

A question for you. What then is the situation right now for someone who attends the Society chapel to meet the Sunday obligation. For instance, there would obviously be available a diocesan OF Mass as well, but the choice is made to attend the SSPX Mass. Confessions? Marriages?

By “situation” I mean what type of sin is committed, if any.

Until the SSPX situation is declared one way or the other, nothing has changed. Their masses are illicit, but valid. People may attend to fulfill their Sunday obligation as long as they are not supporting the SSPX’s attitude toward Rome. ED Commission made this clear many years ago and to the best of my knowledge, this has not changed. You can attend to fulfill your Sunday obligation. You cannot attend, if you do so because your support their position.

Also,the UE says very clearly that those who attend this type of masses do not have a right to ask the diocese or the parish for an EF mass. It’s more nuanced, but that’s the bottom line right now from Rome. If you attend an SSPX chapel on a regular basis and you come to the pastor to ask for an EF in your parish, he cannot grant it to you. The UE document said that only those who are not associated with such groups can make the request for the EF. There is more to it than just Sunday obligation. There is a trade off.

If you are currently attending an SSPX mass, then stay there. IMHO, until the Vatican says the SSPX is is out of the Church, then it is a valid mass. Some may not agree with me.

The mass would be valid even if they were in schism. The mass at the SSPX chapels is like the Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox Church, perfectly valid. The difference between the Orthodox Divine Liturgy and the SSPX mass is that the Orthodox mass is valid and licit. The SSPX mass is valid, but illicit.

It they go into schism, the mass remains valid and illicit. It will not be recognized as licit, as is the case with the Orthodox until the generation of schismatics has died out.

This is the tragedy. It is one thing to commit a schismatic act, those happen everyday. They’re are isolated from the rest of our lives. It is quite another to BE a schismatic.

For the time being, the SSPX is not in schism. We hope that it won’t go into schism. Until anything new comes along, we go on as we have always been.

If they go into schism, there will probably not be a formal decree from the Vatican. The Vatican assumes that the SSPX leadership and their followers know what they have done, if they do so. We have to pray that this IF never happens.

Don’t wait to see it on the front page of the NYT.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[TrueLight]

It they go into schism, the mass remains valid and illicit. It will not be recognized as licit, as is the case with the Orthodox until the generation of schismatics has died out.

But will it fulfill one’s Sunday obligation?

 

[TrueLight]

There are some guidelines about when attending an SSPX Mass is acceptable. One is that the person is going because they like the EF, not because they hate the OF (translated out of church-talk. )

Can we be real with each other? I hope it’s okay.

You’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who regularly attends the EF, who likes the OF.

Is the OF valid? Of course.

 

[JReducation]

But will it fulfill one’s Sunday obligation?

As things are now, yes. If they go into schism, NO. Not only will it not fulfill Sunday obligatio, but it will be a grave sin to attend, just as we cannot fulfill our Sunday obligation by attending an Orthodox mass.

Can we be real with each other? I hope it’s okay.

You’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who regularly attends the EF, who likes the OF.

I do. To me is all about rubrics and attitudes that people have and feelings, none of which I’m allowed to have. Since I’m not allowed to have any of those feelings that you folks have. I only have to focus on the part of the rubrics that apply to me. That makes life perfectly easy. See.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[TrueLight]

As things are now, yes. If they go into schism, NO. Not only will it not fulfill Sunday obligatio, but it will be a grave sin to attend, just as we cannot fulfill our Sunday obligation by attending an Orthodox mass.

I do. To me is all about rubrics and attitudes that people have and feelings, none of which I’m allowed to have. Since I’m not allowed to have any of those feelings that you folks have. I only have to focus on the part of the rubrics that apply to me. That makes life perfectly easy. See.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Umm. Regularly attend the EF, as in most Sundays and/or weekdays!