No, that is not what I want. I’ve had enough of it for now. I will settle for a reverently prayed OF Mass, with respect given and shown to Our Lord in the Most Blessed Sacrament, and sans shenanigans and sixties-type sermons and music.
Yes, same as the Catholic who out of a desire for more sleep chooses not to go. The law says we have to go to Mass on Sunday period.
Oh thank you for saying this! As Br JR said, we must be like a new St Francis or St Teresa - part of the reformation from within the Church.
OOps! sorry, my abbreviation was not intended to imply anything but the Tridentine Mass
haven’t quite got used to the O this and E that etc…I pray that Masses as you describe become the norm everywhere. I do appreciate that this is so in my diocese and I pray for our Bishop and priests continually.
As regards changing things in a particular parish, I feel that is wishful thinking. A parish, like any settled group of people, does things in a particular way and it is virtually impossible to make it do them differently. The great Church reformers did their work by founding new religious orders, not by trying to re-invigorate established ones: St Benedict, St Dominic, St Francis, St Ignatius, etc. etc.:thumbsup:I so agree! Those of us wanting change have several options open to us. e.g. we can try talk to the parish priest, or take it higher and write to our Bishop. Failing that we can write to Rome directly.
In the case of wanting the Tridentine Mass, the Ecclesia Dei website has all the information, advice and help you could wish for. They will even contact your local Bishop to discuss his reasons for not granting your requests etc. As a bonus, we now have Summorum Pontificam to back up what were already legitimate requests. Add to that, the organization called Una Voce also has a website and operates internationally. Rather interestingly, they get small groups of people to represent them and they supply the support, advice etc so they can organize and motivate the TLM in their parish/diocese.
There’s lot’s to be found out there to help establish the TLM in your diocese, if that is what you want.
.Let’s not be too quick here. Let’s take a look at this.As regards changing things in a particular parish, I feel that is wishful thinking. A parish, like any settled group of people, does things in a particular way and it is virtually impossible to make it do them differently. The great Church reformers did their work by founding new religious orders, not by trying to re-invigorate established ones: St Benedict, St Dominic, St Francis, St Ignatius, etc. etc.
As regards applying for a Tridentine Mass, you’re right of course. I admit I haven’t done anything about that, probably too lazy
What I meant is that they started separate communities that functioned separately from the original ones. These could be completely new orders like the Society of Jesus (St Ignatius), the OFM (St Francis), the OP (St Dominic), or branches of existing orders (can’t think of an example offhand).Let’s not be too quick here. Let’s take a look at this.
Like these, there are many others who quietly reform from within. Each of us puts a drop into the ocean. It may only appear to be a drop, but without one drop, the ocean would be shallower. We need less critics and more reformers.
- St. Bernard reforms the Benedictines and so are born the Cistercians.
- St. Francis reformed the penitential movements of his day, which were leading people to heresy.
- St. Catherine of Siena reformed the clergy and the laity of her day.
- St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, reformed the Carmelites. They actually did not found the Discalced Carmelites. The OCD became an independent order long after they were dead.
- St. Ignatius of Loyola reformed the diocesan clergy of his day.
- Bl. Mother Teresa, reformed religious life in India and inspired the founding of many other religious communities who follow her spirit.
- The Franciscan renewal movement of today is reforming both the Franciscan order and reforming how we do parishes by closing as many as possible and turning the attention over to the poorest of the poor, the voiceless, the immigrant, the unemployed and away from the middle class.
- Mother Angelica has reformed how we do apologetics in this country.
- Third Order Regular Franciscan Friars are reforming higher Catholic education.
- Mother Agnes Donavan has reformed the role of women religious in ministry and founded a counterpart organization to the LCWR.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
You would be surprised at how it works with the right people and the right approach. Part of the problem is that the layman who wants a liturgical reform in his parish, does not quite know what to ask for. I recently attended a listening session with our bishop. There were more than 3000 laymen. There was the bishop, every major superior of men, and many pastors.
A very heartening anecdote. I just kept saying “Hear, hear!” as I read it. Thanks for posting it, Brother.You would be surprised at how it works with the right people and the right approach. Part of the problem is that the layman who wants a liturgical reform in his parish, does not quite know what to ask for. I recently attended a listening session with our bishop. There were more than 3000 laymen. There was the bishop, every major superior of men, and many pastors.
There were many laymen asking for liturgical reform, I wanted to shout out the words for them. Unfortunately, I was among the superiors. We were not allowed to speak. Our job was to listen. I knew what they wanted to say, after being on these fora for many years, but they were not saying it. The kept saying that they wanted more reverent masses or that they wanted more meat and potatoes in their homilies.
It was good for them to get up and say this, but they were not quite hitting the nail on the head. There were a few who were very specific. I could tell that they were used to doing this. I’ll give you an example of one woman that truly impressed me.
She began something like this,
“Your Excellency, Reverend Fathers Superiors and Reverend Brothers Superior”
Right there she had our attention. She knew the proper protocol and she was very respectful and polite. Then she continued.
“My wish is for more homilies where the deacons and the priests explain the scriptures, address questions that we have about things such as birth control, confession, divorce and remarriage, abortion, our apostolic duties to the world.”
Now she really had our attention. She was making a very clear list of what she wanted to hear about in homilies. She moved on to catechesis.
“I believe that we need to look at our religious education programs. There is not enough dogma and morals taught with clarity. Our children need to know the Commandments, sacraments, parts of the mass, traditional prayers, the mysteries of the life of Jesus and Mary and more bible.”
OK, now we’re getting somewhere. She’s giving us another list that is very specific. Finally she concludes.
“We understand that many parishes have to be closed because you Reverend Fathers Superior and Brothers Superior have to return to your charism. Our community has evolved from a poor community of immigrants to a middle class community. We understand that we can no longer claim the attention and services of your religious communities, because we don’t have a right to them, as we are not part of the poorest of the poor.”
OK, great. She shows an understanding why the superiors are pulling men from parishes, schools and other institutions and why superiors are closing them. She’s not pointing the finger or complaining. She really has everyone’s attention. She goes for her concluding sentence.
“Are there religious communities out there that serve people like us, the middle class? We miss not seeing the religious in our parishes and our schools. We miss not having our parishes and not having our Catholic schools. I would ask that the diocese consider inviting them to come and take over for those religious who are not allowed to serve us.”
This was beautifully put. She hit all of the marks that she wanted. She was very specific. She was very respectful. She showed that she understood why there were changes around the diocese. She did not point fingers. She even suggested a possible solution,inviting other religious communities that do serve the middle classes in order to keep these parishes and schools open.
This lady ended up being invited to work on one of the teams to implement some of the goal of the diocesan synod. We all agreed that she was the kind of lay person with whom we would be delighted to work. She was intelligent. She knew what was needed. She understood things from our point of view. She presented the needs of the community very clearly and without anger or whining. She offered some solutions.
Like this, I’ve seen lay groups get up and running in different diocese who are not having a synod, but where these lay groups are very clear in what is needed, they understand where bishops and superiors need to focus, but at the same time, they understand the challenges that bishops and superiors face. They offer to create associations, societies and ministries to help. Right now, I’m teaching theology and pastoral care to a group of laymen who approached me and said that they wanted to help Catholic families, especially fathers. They knew that the Franciscans of Life work with poor families and poor fathers.
They asked me if I would work with their families. I said that I was not allowed to help their families, because they have income. I was very sorry. They were very astute. They said, “will you teach us to do what you do, so that we can do it in our communities?” I promised to check the constitutions to make sure that there was no violation. I did and there was nothing against it. Every Monday, for three hours for one year, these men study theology, ministry and Franciscan methods in pastoral care. They go back into their communities and work with families to bring them back to the faith.
It’s a matter of making the request very specific. Try not to ask for too much at one time. In the end, it’s impossible to solve every situation. You can only respond to one need at a time. One by one, you start and you end up responding to many needs. It’s also a matter of knowing how to address the bishop, the priests and the religious in your area. Had these men demanded that I help them, I probably would have said that I didn’t have time. Instead, they were so humble, that I felt that I had to find out if it was legal for me to help them and then to make the time for them.
I always tell the lay folk, we are the Church militant, not the Church belligerent. Approaching bishops, pastors and religious superiors with demands will only get a cold reaction. One cannot force a bishop, pastor a religious superior to do anything. The money threat does not work. I’ve seen that use and have seen the catastrophic consequences.
In one place where the people decided not to support a certain parish because they were not happy, the religious superior called his men on a Friday and told them to vaccate all five parishes and three schools that they had in that diocese. The next day, people came and found the doors locked and the bishop received the keys in the mail. They complained to Rome and Cardinal Ratzinger said that there was nothing that the pope could do, because the people had abdicated their obligation to support the parish and to present their needs and concerns with reverence as required by Canon Law. This was many years ago. But people in that diocese learned a very hard lesson.
I find that individuals who don’t know how to ask and how to offer suggestions that are concrete or who ask for more than can be realistically handled at one time end up being frustrated.
The key is to be clear, use concrete examples, select the top three to begin with. When those are resolved, then select another three, volunteer to help, speak with great reverence, try to show that you understand the position of those in authority, and try to explain how this is important to you. Forget about “We used to do it this way.” That’s not going to buy you sympathy from anyone. We used to do laundry by hand too, but we’re not going back to that . Do you see what I’m saying?
If you’re not sure how to speak the the hierarchy and to religious superiors, read a good biography on St. Francis of Assisi. The man was a master at diplomacy, a master negotiator, and a truly reverent man. Because of these qualities, he was never refused anything. The same is true of Mother Teresa. Read her story and observe her style.
We have to learn how to ask, when to ask and what to ask for.
I hope this gives people some ideas.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Yes, I agree (though I’m no fan of “happy-clappy,” during Mass, anyway). I think your approach is a good one - start with a feel good lesson and then dig deeper to bring out the truth.
I believe that orthodox Catholics, be they Trads or from the mainstream, want very similar things. They don’t all want the Tridentine mass. This is absolutely true. But they do want the mass that is well celebrated and sermons that are truly edifying. They want religious education that has a combination of doctrinal content and spiritual experiences as well. They don’t want it all to be memorize the Baltimore Catechism. That method would not work on most kids anyway. Today’s children don’t learn that way. Schools are not run that way. They use the right side of the brain more than the left. They very visual learners. They need the doctrine, but also the religious experience. But both sides want a true Catholic experience.A very heartening anecdote. I just kept saying “Hear, hear!” as I read it. Thanks for posting it, Brother.
Add the other speakers’ request for reverent masses to what this lady said and you have a complete programme for parish reform. Reading between the lines, I gather that the substance of what Traditional Catholics want is what other Catholics want too: reverence in worship, Faith in catechism, and from the pulpit clear guidelines on moral issues and the practice of charity in concrete social situations (well perhaps some Traditionalists have a little to learn about the last). It’s clear, from this example, that at least part (Ok, 98%?) of the hierarchy want it too - I had some very interesting conversations with Bishop (now Archbishop) Jabulani who was then assistant bishop of the Durban Archdiocese and we really saw eye to eye on these issues.
The problem with the current situation is that Traditional and ‘mainstream’ Catholics each see the other as full of bad will towards themselves; if they sat down and did some talking they would discover how much they actually have in common.
Very interesting that you should say this. There’s a whole other thread on that topic as well, and it’s boiled down to those who favour the Baltimore Catechism, and those who favour more modern methods of teaching catechism. I’m in the latter camp, but alas many traditionalists think many problems in our Church could be fixed with the Baltimore Catechism. It’s an interesting debate. I was brought up with a French equivalent of the Baltimore Catechism and it certainly did nothing to keep me in the Church, nor most folks from my generation, who abandoned the Church en masse. When I returned 22 years later I remembered very little of it, I had to re-catechize myself with books and the Internet.
We live in a visual world. People rarely speak on the telephone, they text, skype, tweeter, FaceBook, chat rooms, IMs. Processing the spoken word is not a habit for our younger generation. They can perceive it, decode it, encode it, but they can’t comprehend all of it, because they don’t process all of it.Very interesting that you should say this. There’s a whole other thread on that topic as well, and it’s boiled down to those who favour the Baltimore Catechism, and those who favour more modern methods of teaching catechism. I’m in the latter camp, but alas many traditionalists think many problems in our Church could be fixed with the Baltimore Catechism. It’s an interesting debate. I was brought up with a French equivalent of the Baltimore Catechism and it certainly did nothing to keep me in the Church, nor most folks from my generation, who abandoned the Church en masse. When I returned 22 years later I remembered very little of it, I had to re-catechize myself with books and the Internet.
But I digress. Sorry for the parenthesis. Back to our regularly scheduled programming
Might I ask where you get this idea from? The Sunday obligation is objectively an obligation. I do not think the Church ever interjected a subjective element like this in this obligation.
First, this is subjective. Objectively, the Holy Sacrament contains abundant graces. I do not see anywhere that the Church says it is up to the individual to rely on his feelings of the Mass as to whether or not he can summon up enough feel good to participate. I know this is said so much it is trite, but the truth remains. We simply must put our principles (faith) above personality and not rely so much on how we feel.
Look to St. Theresa of Avila and her reformation of the Carmalites. The people above started a whole new type of spirituality. It simply is not true that reform can not happen without starting anew. I have seen too many cases of revival sweeping in and changing lives. Protestants do this without even having access to the Sacramental Grace that Catholic have available. In fact, this is the very reason why the SSPX could be such a boon to the Church if they would agree to be restored to ministry. It is not that they would bring a new thing to the Church, but that they could revive was is there, as in the words of Jesus to the Church in Ephesus. This would not affect me so much personally, but I know it would be so helpful to many.
I see your point – you are saying we should concentrate on repairing the Church from the inside, like the reforming Saints. I believe this is what most in the SSPX think that they are doing. They still consider themselves inside the Church. I know of a few diocesan priests who came to one of the SSPX Masses I attended a couple of years ago. They were dressed in plain clothes and did not go up for communion. They were just there to check it out, as it were and talk to the Priest. They were conservative and agreed with a lot of what he said apparently. I know of other diocesan priests who have attended retreats run by the SSPX. The SSPX priests usually feel they help the Church in general by their example. One curate showed interest in saying the traditional Mass and the SSPX priest gave him some literature and advise to help. Contrary to what some may think, the priests in the SSPX that I have spoken to do not get into debates with local clergy or go trying to convert anyone. They concentrate on their own duties and people come to them and take what they want from it.I understand what you’re saying. It’s the same situation as the Orthodox. They blew Rome off. But as centuries passed, some started to reconsider what their ancestors had done and many of the Eastern Churches came back into full communion. Today, the rest are looking at the situation again. In other words, both sides are realizing that this schism is serious business and has affected the lives of Orthodox and Catholics alike…
The first generation of schismatics usually feels no remorse, because it feels justified or it finds ways of justifying itself. Luther and company justified themselves by pointing to the abuses in the Church. They were right about the abuses. That’s why we had a counter reformation. They were wrong to blow off the Church instead of join in the repair work as did people like St. Dominic, St. Francis, St. Bernard, St Teresa of Avila and St. Ignatius.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
BrotherJR, while your wisdom is seemingly without end and we learn so much from it, this observation struck me as odd - that is, the latter part. While it is true that some Eastern Churches sought reunion, the reasons were often more practical than anything, since Constantinople had fallen and other considerations arose. At that point, some of these Churches no longer had the formal support of a recognized Patriarch. Politics also played a role (as usual). I am of course thinking primarily of the Churches of Eastern Europe.
Thankfully this is very true - the seriousness of the separation is noted, despite what one might otherwise conclude based on comments made on this and other forums.
Well, what do you expect? This will always be the case till the end of age.