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Lormar
Guest
Please keep me posted, and I will add my prayers to your own for the success of your endeavor.
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manualman
Guest
Please be clear in definitions. Traditionalists do not NECESSARILY reject Vatican II as an inspired ecumenical council. Some who self identify as Traditionalists simply have rejected the unsanctioned experimentation and abuses so prevalent after the council. We want those people BACK with their convictions intact! NOTHING in Vatican II called for or authorized the purging of the mass of all Latin, or the abolition of ‘ad orientum’ posture during the Eucharistic prayers.
IMO the greatest legacy of B16 will be the tireless struggle he fought to expose the machinations of those pushing a “hermeneutic of rupture” interpretation of Vatican II for the frauds that they are and instead call for an examination of the council in union with the rest of the Sacred Deposit of Faith. When the machinators have largely died off and this new, correct interpretation of the council takes full root, things are going to flourish.
IMO the greatest legacy of B16 will be the tireless struggle he fought to expose the machinations of those pushing a “hermeneutic of rupture” interpretation of Vatican II for the frauds that they are and instead call for an examination of the council in union with the rest of the Sacred Deposit of Faith. When the machinators have largely died off and this new, correct interpretation of the council takes full root, things are going to flourish.
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1AugustSon7
Guest
Manualman, to be sure, we are fully aware of the differences, subtleties and controversies. Thank you for your concern, however.
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freshwind
Guest
I think this is an important point.
I have mentioned in other threads that in our diocese we are seeing a transformation.
There are a large number of young priests that feel they were attracted by the humanity of JPII and taught by the theology of BXVI …they feel they have gotten the best of both worlds.
In the last year I have seen at different parishes some latin and greek introduced, chant being taught, small changes being made in parish habit because the pastor says “we are doing this because the Holy Father asked us to” … we have even had the liturgical calendar chanted at mass as they did hundreds of years ago.
I am optimistic for our Church because these young men are now becoming pastors, and the next generation of priests will be trained by them…our Holy Father has appointed very faithful Bishops in this area, they follow his teachings…the younger priests quote Benedict, John Paul, the saints…it is only the older priests from the 70’s that we sometimes hear quoting non-Catholic sources.I wish some of our brothers and sisters who have not yet returned to full communion could see this new generation and understand that together they can do wonders in leading their flocks…supporting each other in growth
I too pray for us all to be one family again…
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Lormar
Guest
If you read through the thread, you would see that we are not talking about those who are attracted to traditional aspects of our faith within the Church. We are talking about those who spent time, sometimes years, within SSPX or sedevacantist chapels.
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Catholic4Jesus
Guest
I don’t mean to be arrogant, but I feel that the Lord has used me to make this thread as a beacon to draw returned sheep together to get a running start on evangelizing to our brothers and sisters back in the threshold of Traditionalism. He’s already drawn three, which is a BEAUTIFUL number. This is truly the work of God in my mind.
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Catholic4Jesus
Guest
It’s interesting how much the three of us have in common. Something I posted in my testimony “Is ‘Tradition’ the Truth” is that I left Traditionalism because I came to realize that Vatican II is not what I was taught that it was. But what I didn’t mention is how I came to doing that. I too was in the middle of attacking Rome when I got my “wake up call” so-to-speak. It all started when there was a Catholic that I ran into online who was refuting some Protestant claims on an anti-Catholic video. He then made a comment saying, “The diocesan bishops say that you don’t have to come back…” I forgot the rest of the comment, but it got my attention. I then sent him a private message saying, “It doesn’t surprise me that a bishop would say that. Most bishops today are ecumenical, modernist heretics. Especially Benedict XVI, he’s a valid pope but he’s apostate. He’s completely out of line with his predecessors. The Church has been in error since 1965 when Vatican II came about. Since then, the popes have gone apostate.” I had that conversation with him just a little over a year ago, that shows you how new I am coming back to Rome. I think I still have that message in my file. He sent me a message, it was like several weeks later I think and he was telling me that I was taking stuff out of context and that I didn’t know my faith well enough. He then asked me if I was confused. It made me kind of angry. My defense-mechanism went up right away, but I didn’t say anything to him. It started to make me think, although it wasn’t enough to convince me of my errors. Then not too long after that, I was checking out this video called “Priest Denies That Jesus Is The Only Way” it was made by a Protestant Fundamentalist trying to attack the Catholic Church. In the video, the priest was asked, “Does the Catholic Church teach that everyone who dies a non-Catholic is going to Hell?” and then he replied, “Oh absolutely not!” I immediately posted a comment on the video, “This priest is an apostate, modernist heretic…blah blah…” And then I got a response from another Catholic who was telling me everything that the other guy was telling me. After that, I thought “That’s a complete load of baloney.” However, I began researching every answer that those guys gave me and I ended running into a video that answered almost all of those claims, it was a video refuting Sedevacantism. After that, I really began to wonder, “Is Vatican II really all that I was taught that it is?” I found a link on a diocesan church’s website that led me directly to view an online version of the decrees of the ecumenical councils. It had all of the council documents from Nicea to Vatican II. I started off checking out VII and switched back and forth between earlier councils (mostly Trent and Vatican I) and I came to see that there was really no difference in their dogmatic decrees, just a slight difference in language. Just like different English Bibles present the message in different dialects of English. After that, it was like I had underwent a supernatural conversion of heart. Even though it was a slow process transitioning from “Tradition” to Rome, at that moment I realized that “This isn’t right anymore. I need to stop.” It was almost like the time our Lord appeared to Saul of Tarsus on his way to an execution of a Christian and Saul became St. Paul, the great Apostle. I feel that’s the exact same way that the Lord corrected the three of us and brought us back home. Las Tibe Dominus Jesu Christe! No wonder the so many Traditionalists believe that the Internet is a sin. That’s probably the only way that they could get their information as to why their position is wrong. “Listen to our priests and our priests only or go to Hell.” Some Traditionalists that I’ve come to know, their hearts and so hardened and they’re so indoctrinated and deceived that I feel a divine intervention from Christ is the only remaining option as their last hope for conversion. Let us keep them in our prayers, praise God!!!
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GloriaMaria
Guest
Yes, some of the time. We’ve spent the better part of 10 years down the SSPX road. Our family is in varying states of transition.
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Dee_S
Guest
An extremely poignant point:thumbsup: to admit we are or have been wrong must be one of the most difficult things for human nature to do.
I know some ex-trads who have ‘come back’, that are not so “ex” , in that they cannot truly appreciate how indefensible the break away from the Church and the rebellion against the Holy Fathers authority for almost 30 years, was and is.
They still make excuses for and deep down still believe that the SSPX have/had good reason for refusing full communion with the Church.(I have noticed that when the reconciliation fell apart, they are not at all unhappy about it).
Bishop Fellay should have taken the olive branch under Pope Benedict XVI - he was given a lot of room to “save face” - I think he could not do it, as he could not face the astonishment and criticizm from within for what they all perceived as a “sell-out”. Hence his hasty travelling of the globe thereafter, making up stories, to cover up and excuse what he claims was confusion by the Vatican that gave the impression he was going to reconcile. I mean, who is he trying to fool (his faithful only), there is evidence all over the internet of his words to the contrary.
To admit that the SSPX is wrong - is having to admit that we were wrong…and that takes some grace and doing
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I have identified with the “trad” movement for several years now. I am also a skeptic by nature. My own conversion was very cerebral: I was a Southern Baptist for my whole life until my mid teens, but I had always been severely critical of Protestantism because it couldn’t be historically substantiated. There was no historical connection between Patristic times and the European Protestant movements, there was dead history for about 300 years and I simply could not accept that.
Anyway, my skeptic nature has followed me into the Church. I was immediately attracted by the trad movement–almost a love at first sight, coming home kind of thing–for many reasons. I had considered the SSPX and, while I was and continue to be sympathetic to many of their causes, I could not accept their basic premise that the Church needs to return to eternal Rome, simply for the reason that the idea of “eternal Rome” is bogus in the first place. Petrus is Peter, the Pope, a living person, not St. Peter’s Square, not the sedia gestatoria, not the papal tiara, no matter how nice those things are. The Pope could move to Antarctica, it wouldn’t change anything of faith and morals, although I oppose that. =]
I’m not an ex-trad, can’t see that happening. I’ve never really descended into the darker depths anyway except to look, and I wouldn’t let myself get in to any of that in the first place: it is repugnant to me intellectually because if I start accepting the wackier stuff, the natural conclusion is, therefore, always Sedevacantism. -_-
I read SSPX articles and publications, I watch their Youtube interviews with Fr. Rostand and others, I occasionally read some of the funky forums, but I do not put my faith in them, a simple society of priests. The SSPX is doomed to failure if they do not return to the Church in full. There will be a schism of some magnitude no matter what happens, but we can try to minimize that. If the new Pope is Ouelett or Burke, perhaps Piacenza or Bagnasco, SSPX better watch out. A razing of the Roman Curia might be imminent, but a razing of the SSPX is probably imminent as well. I am not an enemy of the SSPX, I am quite sympathetic to many of their causes, but they need to be put in line.
Anyway, my skeptic nature has followed me into the Church. I was immediately attracted by the trad movement–almost a love at first sight, coming home kind of thing–for many reasons. I had considered the SSPX and, while I was and continue to be sympathetic to many of their causes, I could not accept their basic premise that the Church needs to return to eternal Rome, simply for the reason that the idea of “eternal Rome” is bogus in the first place. Petrus is Peter, the Pope, a living person, not St. Peter’s Square, not the sedia gestatoria, not the papal tiara, no matter how nice those things are. The Pope could move to Antarctica, it wouldn’t change anything of faith and morals, although I oppose that. =]
I’m not an ex-trad, can’t see that happening. I’ve never really descended into the darker depths anyway except to look, and I wouldn’t let myself get in to any of that in the first place: it is repugnant to me intellectually because if I start accepting the wackier stuff, the natural conclusion is, therefore, always Sedevacantism. -_-
I read SSPX articles and publications, I watch their Youtube interviews with Fr. Rostand and others, I occasionally read some of the funky forums, but I do not put my faith in them, a simple society of priests. The SSPX is doomed to failure if they do not return to the Church in full. There will be a schism of some magnitude no matter what happens, but we can try to minimize that. If the new Pope is Ouelett or Burke, perhaps Piacenza or Bagnasco, SSPX better watch out. A razing of the Roman Curia might be imminent, but a razing of the SSPX is probably imminent as well. I am not an enemy of the SSPX, I am quite sympathetic to many of their causes, but they need to be put in line.
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manualman
Guest
I figured y’all knew better, but the language you guys are using still APPEARS to define “traditionalist” as someone who considers the last 5 popes to all be heretics.
This isn’t so. One does NOT have to fully embrace communion in the hand, fully English masses, 50 EMHCs at every mass and bongos playing mass acompanyment parts in order to be in union with Rome. Just go find a FSSP parish or a diocesan parish where the EF is offered.
The gospel is the important part. You don’t have to give up your traditional liturgical preferences. They’re beautiful and glorious. Just be humble enough to accept that they are your preferences, and not every item of your preference is necessarily divinely instituted and unchageable. He’s God, we’re not. Repeat as necessary.
This isn’t so. One does NOT have to fully embrace communion in the hand, fully English masses, 50 EMHCs at every mass and bongos playing mass acompanyment parts in order to be in union with Rome. Just go find a FSSP parish or a diocesan parish where the EF is offered.
The gospel is the important part. You don’t have to give up your traditional liturgical preferences. They’re beautiful and glorious. Just be humble enough to accept that they are your preferences, and not every item of your preference is necessarily divinely instituted and unchageable. He’s God, we’re not. Repeat as necessary.
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1AugustSon7
Guest
Exactly. It only appears.
And speaking of the centrality of the Gospel:
"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
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Dee_S
Guest
a thought provoking post. Yes, hopefully it does just “appear” that way - but it is always good to have a reminder here and there that ‘preferences’ must not reduce the good of the current liturgy of the Mass in the OF - and those who cannot find it to their taste, must of course seek out the EF if it can be had.What we are talking of on this thread, is the personal ‘crisis’ that the SSPX has brought into lives that have had dealings with them. It could “appear” negative to those who have never had that experience, but believe me, it’s positive for us. Sharing the same perspective helps us heal from the encounter and hopefully keeps us faithful to Holy Mother Church despite difficulties in the parishes.
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1AugustSon7
Guest
Very well put Dee S
What we are talking of on this thread, is the personal ‘crisis’ that the SSPX has brought into lives that have had dealings with them. It could “appear” negative to those who have never had that experience, but believe me, it’s positive for us. Sharing the same perspective helps us heal from the encounter and hopefully keeps us faithful to Holy Mother Church despite difficulties in the parishes.
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HumbleCatholic
Guest
Hello!
I just joined this site tonight. I stumbled upon this thred, and so glad that I did.
I just came back to our one , holy, catholic apostolic Church that Jesus Christ founded upon this earth–2 nights ago.
I was with SSPX Roman Cathic Church for apprx 4 1/2 years, and with the “independent” Traditional Roman Catholic Churh for almost 5 years.
My “running” back into the loving arms of our Holy Mother the Church was because of Pope Benedicts’ resignation. It really got me to doing some soul searching. After many days and nights of no sleep, crying, having to go to work every day with this turmoil in my heart was more than I could bear. It felt like my heart was being pierced.
Finally, I had found the answer, and was lead by the Holy Spirt to go to a Roman Catholic Church in my town to a Bible class. I wanted to meet the parish priest.
I have been away from the “modern” Church for many, many, years. In fact I just quit going for nine years before my journey back into the traditional churches. I must admit, I truely loved it there. BUT, as of two days ago, I know how wrong I have been.
The particular night (2 nights ago), I was all ready to go to this Bible class. Instead, a special Mission meeting was being held, and the priest who was to lead the Bible class was hearing confessions!!! Oh yes, I went. He heard, and i was forgiven.
This is my story. I have not yet been to the new Mass yet, but will be going this coming Sunday. I am a bit nervous. Father said I may kneel at Holy Communion, He also said only ONE other parishioner kneels in the entire parish! The new parish I have chosen to belong to is a very large parish.
I am having qualms about peoples dress (shorts–for real!), no veils on the womens’ heads, no communion rail, altar girls, and the Chrismatics. Plus i had face to face Confession.
Father told me I must just persevere…
I would love to join your support group for ex-Trads. I hope you get it going…hopefully more people like us will find this thread.
May God bless us all.
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HumbleCatholic
Guest
Lormar, 1Augustson7, and Catholic4Jesus,
I tried to get quotes from all 3 of you, but it didn’t work.
I was trying to answer all 3 of your posts at one time.
May God bless us!
I tried to get quotes from all 3 of you, but it didn’t work.
I was trying to answer all 3 of your posts at one time.
May God bless us!
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MikeDunphy
Guest
Thanks for speaking up. It is possible to love and hold fast to our traditions without being schismatic. May God bless you all with a holy Lent.
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gentle_atheist
Guest
We must never forget that if it were not for the SSPX the TLM would be extinct.
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GloriaMaria
Guest
Well, we think this sometimes. But really it could be entirely possible that if it weren’t for the open rebellion of the SSPX, especially the episcopal ordinations and beyond, that some of the other Bishops of the world would have been less resistant to allowing the TLM in their dioceses eventually.
The thing is, you never really know “what if”.
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GloriaMaria
Guest
Click on 1Augustson7 link “progigal sons returned” at the bottom of his post - that’s our group for now! Please join us. It’s just getting started.
I’ll tell you the truth. The first few OF masses are tough. Eventually, hopefully, you will get to the point where you are so busy praying, and being grateful, or examining your own sins or whatever that you won’t notice what people are wearing or if you don’t like the songs, or if it’s too loud in the church. It takes time. Father is right to encourage you to persevere.
God Bless you. Please know that some of us have been there or are also in the process of leaving the SSPX and/or independent chapels.
God is good.
GM
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