Yes but even here there is an obvious limitation as sooner or later the SSPX bishops will die and no more priests will be ordained. Because the current situation is unsustainable it is not a truly schismatic Church. If the bishops were to decide to consecrate more bishops, then all bets are off.they continue to ordain men even when specifically requested to not do so
As we all know, the SSPX went ahead with the ordinations, and it apparently didn’t endanger the talks, because those are ongoing.The Vatican has warned against the ordination of new priests for the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), saying that the ordinations scheduled later this month would be “illegitimate.” A Vatican statement released on June 17 quoted from the letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the world’s bishops on March 10, referring to the irregular status of the SSPX bishops: “As long as the Society (of St. Pius X) does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.”
The Vatican statement hinted that if SSPX go ahead with the ordinations-- which are scheduled to take place in separate ceremonies held in three different countries-- they could endanger the progress of talks designed to complete the process of reconciliation between the traditionalist group and the Holy See. In Germany, bishops have warned that the ordinations would be a “provocation,” risking new disciplinary action against the SSPX.
Contrary to several media reports, the Vatican statement did not say that the ordinations would be invalid. Earlier this year the Holy Father lifted the excommunications of the SSPX bishops. But the traditionalist prelates still do not have regular canonical status; their sacramental ministry is valid but illicit.
As usual, the secular press continues to demonstrate the idiots they are by inserting their “take” on papal decrees, which are then taken as “fact” and as verbatim statements from the Pope by those whose only reading materials are blog sites.The Vatican has warned against the ordination of new priests for the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), saying that the ordinations scheduled later this month would be "illegitimate…
Catholicism in Europe waned in the nineteenth and the first part of the twentieth century despite adherence to traditional Catholicism. On the other hand the Mormon Church grew during this same period.When one adheres to the traditional catholic faith, growth is inevitable.
And the point is? I was simply responding to the challenge that Pro Vobis gave to Aramis that there was not continued action on the part of the bishops; Pro Vobis challenged it on the basis that no new bishops have been consecrated.When one adheres to the traditional catholic faith, growth is inevitable. For the record, the SSPX Bishops do not sit around planning where to put their next chapel. Rather, they respond to the requests of the faithful who petition to have a Mass said in a particular locality. Whether that grows into a chapel with a regular recurring Mass is completely up to the faithful in that area.
I am not spouting anything. I am not at any loss to quote the request that they not ordain more priests; it was all over the news. You appear to not read the international news; you should do some research rather than presuming that others are lying.You spout from the same anti-SSPX blog talking points as others do on this board, but of course you are at a complete loss to quote the “specific request” from Pope Benedict XVI to cease to ordain any more priests.
In most of these secular news stories, the word “schismatic” or something similar appears in the first line or two. As it is reported as fact, the bias has been established and rest of the report is suspect.You appear to not read the international news; you should do some research rather than presuming that others are lying.
Sorry, but you forgot to site the quote that is “all over the news” but nobody can seem to produce.I am not spouting anything. I am not at any loss to quote the request that they not ordain more priests; it was all over the news. You appear to not read the international news; you should do some research rather than presuming that others are lying.
I would agree that if the bishops were to ordain more bishops, all bets would be off.Yes but even here there is an obvious limitation as sooner or later the SSPX bishops will die and no more priests will be ordained. Because the current situation is unsustainable it is not a truly schismatic Church. If the bishops were to decide to consecrate more bishops, then all bets are off.
We have better health care now (although that may also change). But I take your point and that is certainly a similarity between Mormons and Traditional Catholics - large families. On the other hand, the modern church appears to be contracepting itself into oblivion. No children, no vocations, no priests, no Novus Ordo.Catholicism in Europe waned in the nineteenth and the first part of the twentieth century despite adherence to traditional Catholicism. On the other hand the Mormon Church grew during this same period.
What planet are you on?We have better health care now (although that may also change). But I take your point and that is certainly a similarity between Mormons and Traditional Catholics - large families. On the other hand, the modern church appears to be contracepting itself into oblivion. No children, no vocations, no priests, no Novus Ordo.
Hard to go down from zero … I guess we’ll see.What planet are you on?
Vocations are up.
They are not at zero, and they have not been at zero or anywhere near it. Do a little research on how many priests have been ordained each year in the US alone and you will see. There were 472 ordinations in the US in 2009, about a 4% increase over 2005, or a 6.8% increase of 2000. Go down from zero? Where did you learn math? Seminarians increased also. where do you get your zero in that?Hard to go down from zero … I guess we’ll see.
Of course, you are joking!They are not at zero, and they have not been at zero or anywhere near it. Do a little research on how many priests have been ordained each year in the US alone and you will see. There were 472 ordinations in the US in 2009, about a 4% increase over 2005, or a 6.8% increase of 2000. Go down from zero? Where did you learn math? Seminarians increased also. where do you get your zero in that?
I would add the one caveat, if they ordained more bishops without permission, all bets would be off. I would hope that enough dialogue exists that if such a need arose that a compromise could be reach and permission granted for an ordination.I would agree that if the bishops were to ordain more bishops, all bets would be off.
Good point. Remember that at the time of the 1988 consecrations, the Vatican was willing to allow the Archbishop to ordain one bishop. The problem was always agreement on the list of candidates. With the Society significantly larger now and the pool of candidates much larger, perhaps that would not be an issue the next time around. You might also add the fact that there is now a larger number of Bishops and Cardinals who are sympathetic to tradition. Bishop Fellay has suggested that there are members of the Curia and the episcopate who are more or less “lying low” but would be more openly “friendly” and supportive of the Society after regularization.I would add the one caveat, if they ordained more bishops without permission, all bets would be off. I would hope that enough dialogue exists that if such a need arose that a compromise could be reach and permission granted for an ordination.
It is not I who need to do the math. At the height of ratio of priests to parishes, we had an average of 1.95 priests to every parish. We are now at 1.5 priests to every parish; and the presumption that we need parishes with 2, 3, 4 or more priests is not based on sacramental needs. And at 1.5 priests for every parish, there is hardly any statistics which show that we will not have neough priests to manage; just because the US is not producing enough priests to replace the priests in the US who are retiring or dying does not mean that there are no priests to fill the positions; we are receiving priests from India and Africa, both areas of which have an abundance of vocations. And guess what - they all say the OF.Of course, you are joking!
From 2000-2005, there was an increase of 12 priests per year ordained in the US.
From 2005-2009, there was an increase of 18 priests per year ordained in the US
From 2000-2005, the total number of priests in the US decreased by ~3000
From 2005-2009, the total number of priests in the US decreased by ~2000
From 2000-2009, the number of parishes decreased by 1000
From 2000-2009, the number of parishes without a resident priest rose by 600
From 2000-2009, the number of parishes run by a nun, deacon, or brother rose by 70
The ONLY statistic working in favor of the Novus Ordo is that fact the number of Catholics who attend Mass weekly only rose from 33% to 36%
The only number on a steady increase is the number of permanent deacons, up to 16,000 in 2009. Newsflash, the future of the Novus Ordo will be Permanent Deacons and Nuns presiding over Communion services using pre-Consecrated hosts.
Do the math my friend. As I said, sayonara Novus Ordo.
A large number? Do tell; considering that the EF outside that group amounts to one parish in about 250 world wide, the reality “on the street” seems to be slightly different. Or are all these bishops and cardinals who are so sympathetic presuming that if the SSPX are regularized, they - the SSPX - will “take care of” making the EF more available so the “sympathetic” cardinals and bishops don’t have to?Good point. Remember that at the time of the 1988 consecrations, the Vatican was willing to allow the Archbishop to ordain one bishop. The problem was always agreement on the list of candidates. With the Society significantly larger now and the pool of candidates much larger, perhaps that would not be an issue the next time around. You might also add the fact that there is now a larger number of Bishops and Cardinals who are sympathetic to tradition. Bishop Fellay has suggested that there are members of the Curia and the episcopate who are more or less “lying low” but would be more openly “friendly” and supportive of the Society after regularization.
I wear contacts and would gladly share my favorite substance - Molson Canadian.It is not I who need to do the math. At the height of ratio of priests to parishes, we had an average of 1.95 priests to every parish. We are now at 1.5 priests to every parish; and the presumption that we need parishes with 2, 3, 4 or more priests is not based on sacramental needs. And at 1.5 priests for every parish, there is hardly any statistics which show that we will not have neough priests to manage; just because the US is not producing enough priests to replace the priests in the US who are retiring or dying does not mean that there are no priests to fill the positions; we are receiving priests from India and Africa, both areas of which have an abundance of vocations. And guess what - they all say the OF.
You are dreaming that the SSPX amounts to any significant number - taking the number of 1 million that was bandied about, which is a world wide number if anything (it certainly does not represe4nt the number os SSPX followers in the US), it amounts to approximately 1 person in every 1,147. OF going away? Put on some new glasses. Or share whatever substance you are taking, as it makes for some really good dreams!
We believe in hops out here. An IPA will do.I wear contacts and would gladly share my favorite substance - Molson Canadian.
Your parishes are closing, your seminaries are empty, you cannot import priests from Africa and India in large enough numbers to compensate for the boomer retiring priests. Face it, OJ, you will eventually be assisting at a Communion Service without a Consecration offered by a nun and a new age sermon. Such a thing already exists for daily Mass at one of our neighborhood churches in Oceanside, CA. Prepare, my friend, it is your future.A large number? Do tell; considering that the EF outside that group amounts to one parish in about 250 world wide, the reality “on the street” seems to be slightly different. Or are all these bishops and cardinals who are so sympathetic presuming that if the SSPX are regularized, they - the SSPX - will “take care of” making the EF more available so the “sympathetic” cardinals and bishops don’t have to?