SSPX Mass ok?

[Thaumaturgos]

You may be unaware that the above is, indeed, the case - for, Archbishop Lefebvre and his priests were suspended *a divinis *in 1976 - that is, they were suspended from performing ALL priestly duties (such as saying Mass, hearing Confessions, blessing pious objects, etc.) and, not only are in that state today, but have incurred the very grave canonical penalty of excommunication for being in a state of schism.

i totally agree, thank you!
if someone is suspended he cant say mass or spend sacraments.

why do we not use our possibilities with the renewed rite … if we start use the tridentine mass in the vernacular all mystery is gone. and i can read and understand latin
i’m all for ONM

 

[Sean_O_L]

Freeway4321 wrote:

Let’s all calm down, now.

Freeway, it might be a good idea if you passed-on you advice to your good self! (Deacon) cameron_lansing (and others) are already perfectly calm!

I think you are doing a disservice to my statements

To the contrary - you have done yourself a disservice to yourself by making some (literally) “freeway” claims.

“enjoying” is probably not the word I should of said, but i’m rather lazy so it was bound to happen.

True and false! It IS true that “enjoying” was the wrong word. It is false to say “probably”.

That should of been more of “wanting to experience heaven on earth”. Which is something that is rare, it’s the Eucharist, and… the churches themselves are supposed to be heaven on earth. But i’m getting off topic…

Are you a charismatic? “wanting to experience heaven on earth” is symptomatic of a need for a “fix” - which may have a place for the “touchy-feely”. (This is said tongue-in-cheek in view of some of your comments in the thread “Praying in Tongues”…is it O.K. during Mass ? forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=78712)

Since I am getting off topic, are we really to think that if the Orthodox & SSPX unite to the church that they will have to repent for the “illicit” masses? I doubt it. It’s a discussion worth having.

Yes, you are “getting off-topic” – which topic for this thread – is “SSPX Mass O.K.” It is you who have become “un-calm” and introduced

I know of someone who attendes an Orthodox Liturgy then goes to an N.O. to recieve communion. Not unheard of, and isn’t a bad idea… as long as you are not receiving Holy Eucharist at the SSPX chapel.

Please calmly note that you are claiming there that “it isn’t a bad idea” to attend an SSPX Mass “as long as you are not receiving Holy Eucharist.” Furthermore, you now also introduce a claim that “if the Orthodox & SSPX unite to the church that they will have to repent for the “illicit” masses?”

Are you not unaware of the concept that “sin” is an offence against 1) God, and frequently against someone else (maybe yourself, or your neighbour), and that in order to be forgiven that there IS a need for the sinner’s repentence?

Schism IS a very grave sin against God and the Unity of the Church, and is also a scandal to the faithful. And, yes, it IS necessary for a schismatic to repent of all of their sins whilst being in a state of schism – just as it is necessary for faithful Catholics to repent of their sins whilst in Union with the Church.

Pope John-Paul II formally declared that Lefebvre & Co. were guilty of the very grave sin of schism, for which the penalty was excommunication. Mgr. Camille Perl officially stated 18th January 2003 that

Every Catholic has a right to the sacraments (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 843), but he does not have a right to them according to the rite of his choice." Cf. jloughnan.tripod.com/schmex3.htm

• last document.

I hope that this may be helpful.

 

[cainem]

SSPX Mass ok? why would you want to attend a protestant church? thats what they are, also do you really believe that you are getting the full divinty and body and blood of christ in their eucharist, just because they claim that they are catholic? the anglican church also claim to be the true catholics

 

[palmas85]

SSPX Mass ok? why would you want to attend a protestant church? thats what they are, also do you really believe that you are getting the full divinty and body and blood of christ in their eucharist, just because they claim that they are catholic? the anglican church also claim to be the true catholics

Actually Lutherans also claim the same thing.

 

[Iohannes]

SSPX Mass ok? why would you want to attend a protestant church? thats what they are, also do you really believe that you are getting the full divinty and body and blood of christ in their eucharist, just because they claim that they are catholic? the anglican church also claim to be the true catholics

Yes, they are valid. Sacraments are not magical things. As long as there is proper matter, intent, and form, it is valid. The SSPX has all those things so therefore they have valid Masses, it does not matter what your views are, you can love them, hate them, their Holy Communion is still valid.

The reason why the Anglican orders are invalid is being their ordinal was too ambigious.

 

[Freeway4321]

Sean O L:

Freeway4321 wrote:

Freeway, it might be a good idea if you passed-on you advice to your good self! (Deacon) cameron_lansing (and others) are already perfectly calm!

To the contrary - you have done yourself a disservice to yourself by making some (literally) “freeway” claims.

True and false! It IS true that “enjoying” was the wrong word. It is false to say “probably”.

Are you a charismatic? “wanting to experience heaven on earth” is symptomatic of a need for a “fix” - which may have a place for the “touchy-feely”. (This is said tongue-in-cheek in view of some of your comments in the thread “Praying in Tongues”…is it O.K. during Mass ? forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=78712)

Yes, you are “getting off-topic” – which topic for this thread – is “SSPX Mass O.K.” It is you who have become “un-calm” and introduced

Please calmly note that you are claiming there that “it isn’t a bad idea” to attend an SSPX Mass “as long as you are not receiving Holy Eucharist.” Furthermore, you now also introduce a claim that “if the Orthodox & SSPX unite to the church that they will have to repent for the “illicit” masses?”

Are you not unaware of the concept that “sin” is an offence against 1) God, and frequently against someone else (maybe yourself, or your neighbour), and that in order to be forgiven that there IS a need for the sinner’s repentence?

Schism IS a very grave sin against God and the Unity of the Church, and is also a scandal to the faithful. And, yes, it IS necessary for a schismatic to repent of all of their sins whilst being in a state of schism – just as it is necessary for faithful Catholics to repent of their sins whilst in Union with the Church.

Pope John-Paul II formally declared that Lefebvre & Co. were guilty of the very grave sin of schism, for which the penalty was excommunication. Mgr. Camille Perl officially stated 18th January 2003 that

I hope that this may be helpful.

I must say… that wasn’t unhelpful. Why bother typing all of this when you can get all of the info you mentioned from your signature? (“Cheat Steet” on the Society of St Pius X (SSPX).

Although I know about everything you have said… and I do not want to be an SSPX apologist.

I do want to give a serious comment on this…

“Schism IS a very grave sin against God and the Unity of the Church, and is also a scandal to the faithful. And, yes, it IS necessary for a schismatic to repent of all of their sins whilst being in a state of schism – just as it is necessary for faithful Catholics to repent of their sins whilst in Union with the Church.”

…That’s happening. And I take it the agreement with all of the Eastern Rite churches (besides the Maronites) said “repent for all of those schismatic masses you performed” Aye, methinks this wasn’t so.

And considering the Orthodox think we are schismatic they’d ask the same of our priests. What a mess that will be.

 

[cainem]

how can the sspx mass be valid ? they are not in communion with rome, which also means that the sacraments are not valid, transubstanation does not happen because you wish it, the only valid sacraments are found in the holy catholic and apostolic church, if the sspx want to be catholic then they should come home instead of sitting on the sidelines spitting their dummy out the pram

 

[Freeway4321]

cainem:

how can the sspx mass be valid ? they are not in communion with rome, which also means that the sacraments are not valid, transubstanation does not happen because you wish it, the only valid sacraments are found in the holy catholic and apostolic church, if the sspx want to be catholic then they should come home instead of sitting on the sidelines spitting their dummy out the pram

The SSPX as well as the Orthodox both have vaild sacraments. You can Google what was officially said about this from Rome and those in the know.

 

[bear06]

Iohannes:

Yes, they are valid. Sacraments are not magical things. As long as there is proper matter, intent, and form, it is valid. The SSPX has all those things so therefore they have valid Masses, it does not matter what your views are, you can love them, hate them, their Holy Communion is still valid.

The reason why the Anglican orders are invalid is being their ordinal was too ambigious.

Lohannes, we’ve been ove rthis a million times. Not all of their sacraments are valid. Their marriages and confessions are not valid because they do not have faculties. When are you going to check this out? Even if a priest was not a schismatic, he must be given faculties by the local bishop to officiate at weddings and hear confessions. Yes, their Holy Communion is valid but illicit.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

…Their marriages and confessions are not valid because they do not have faculties. When are you going to check this out? Even if a priest was not a schismatic, he must be given faculties by the local bishop to officiate at weddings and hear confessions. Yes, their Holy Communion is valid but illicit.

So, those same Eastern Orthodox sacraments are invalid? Just wondering…no marriages, no confessions…no faculties, and schismatic from even the definition of primacy of the See of Peter.

 

[TNT]

cainem:

how can the sspx mass be valid ? they are not in communion with rome, which also means that the sacraments are not valid, transubstanation does not happen because you wish it, the only valid sacraments are found in the holy catholic and apostolic church, if the sspx want to be catholic then they should come home instead of sitting on the sidelines spitting their dummy out the pram

Ahhhh. This is waaaayyy past what the Vatican says, your majesty.
Besides, the vatican II proclaims and all VatII adherents must believe, that God uses these “other ecclesial communities” as a true means of salvation, with grace supplied to them.

 

[Kielbasi]

(SSPX) marriages and confessions are not valid because they do not have faculties. When are you going to check this out?

That’s an interesting fact, considering that there are thousands of SSPX followers.

The day which they are reunited with Rome will be a very active day for pre-cana class enrollment and booking Catholic churches for weddings.

 

[TNT]

Kielbasi:

That’s an interesting fact, considering that there are thousands of SSPX followers.

The day which they are reunited with Rome will be a very active day for pre-cana class enrollment and booking Catholic churches for weddings.

The Campos group who was SSPX and reunited, did not have to remarry. I think they get some sort of blanket regularizing.

 

[JOHNYJ]

There is No decree of excomunication hanging over the Eastern Orthodox. A Catholic can with his bishops permission.Be Marriued in a Greek Orthodox church and the Wedding will be vailid and licit.
The SSPX crowd and those that support them are Exccommunicated. They are not the same as the E O or anyone else. Their offenses against Holy Mother Church increase by the day.
Why any true Catholic would have any thing to do with them,is unbelievable.

 

[TNT]

JOHNYJ:

There is No decree of excomunication hanging over the Eastern Orthodox. A Catholic can with his bishops permission.Be Marriued in a Greek Orthodox church and the Wedding will be vailid and licit.
…Why any true Catholic would have any thing to do with them,is unbelievable.

They’re in schism, are they not? If true, how do they gain “jurisdiction”?

As far as “permission” goes by a catholic bp., even a luthern-catholic marriage can be licit in a Lutheran ministry. That proves nothing, as no EO marriage of 2 EO’s calls a catholic bishop.
Where does the EO schismatic get jurisdiction to perform a sacrament of matrimony? That’s the question.
BTW:
A schismatic is ipso facto excommunicated as far as I can tell.
One can be excommunicated w/o being in schism, but one cannot be in schism without being excommunicated.

 

[Kielbasi]

The SSPX crowd and those that support them are Exccommunicated.

I don’t think so, especially those who were never communicated in the first place.

You can’t be excommunicated unless you were previously communicated. Someone who was brought up in the SSPX chapel or came there from a non catholic religion or no religion at all, it would be an impossibility.

 

[bear06]

Kielbasi:

That’s an interesting fact, considering that there are thousands of SSPX followers.

The day which they are reunited with Rome will be a very active day for pre-cana class enrollment and booking Catholic churches for weddings.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh! We’ve been over this too but you may not have been in on this. Once they reunite, their marriages are sanated by the pope. This is a long standing practice in the Church for mass conversions. Basically they are made sane. Same with confessions although there’s something about going to the next confession but I can’t remember exactly what the protocol is for that one.

 

[bear06]

Kielbasi:

I don’t think so, especially those who were never communicated in the first place.

You can’t be excommunicated unless you were previously communicated. Someone who was brought up in the SSPX chapel or came there from a non catholic religion or no religion at all, it would be an impossibility.

I think you’re referring to the “you can’t be born into a schism rule”. There are a lot of intricacies to these kinds of things.

 

[Freeway4321]

Alright, this should address issues that have been debated.

**The Laity and the Society of Saint Pius X **

On 5th May 1988 Archbishop Lefebvre, assisted by Bishop de Castro Mayer, consecrated four priests of the Society of St. Pius X as bishops, defying the authority of Rome. Archbishop Lefebvre and the five bishops incurred the penalty of excommunication. Ever since that time it has been a source of much confusion, debate, and misinformation as to the status of lay men and women that assist at the Masses of the Society of Saint Pius X. Are they schismatic? Excommunicated?
The following document deals specifically with this question and may help to clarify what is a difficult and complex situation. In both cases one can only conclude that the sentiments expressed accurately reflect the view of the Roman authorities.

PONTIFICIA COMMISSIO

“ECCLESIA DEI”

Rome, 28th September 1999

Dear Mr. R,

With regard to the schismatic Society of St. Pius X we can say the following:

1. The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but suspended, that is prohibited from exercising their priestly functions because they are not properly incardinated in a diocese or religious institute in full communion with the Holy See and also because those ordained after the episcopal ordinations were ordained by an excommunicated bishop. They are also excommunicated if they adhere to the schism. While up to now the Holy See has not defined what this adherence consists in, one could point to a wholesale condemnation of the Church since the Second Vatican Council and a refusal to be in communion with it. Further, it is likely that these priests, after eleven years in a society whose head is now an excommunicated bishop, effectively adhere to the schism.
2. Concretely this means that the Masses offered by the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are valid, but illicit i.e, contrary to Canon Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony however, require that the priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have the proper faculty to absolve, the Church supplied these faculties so that the sacrament was valid (cf. Code of Canon Law c.144).
3. The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily because of an attraction to the earlier forms of the Roman Rite in which case they incur no penalty. The difficulty is that the longer they frequent these chapels, the more likely it is that they will slowly imbibe the schismatic mentality which stands in judgement of the Church and refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff and communion with the members of the Church subject to him. If that becomes the case, then it would seem that they adhere to the schism and are consequently excommunicated.

For these reasons this Pontifical Commission cannot encourage you to frequent the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X. On the other hand it would seem that you are among those who attend Mass in chapels of the Society of St. Pius X because of the reverence and devotion which they find there, because of their attraction to the traditional Latin Mass and not because they refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff or reject communion with the members of the Church subject to him. At the same time it must be admitted that this is an irregular situation, even if the circumstances which have caused it have come about through no fault of your own, and it should be remedied as soon as circumstances permit.

With prayerful best wishes I remain

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Msgr Camille Perl (Secretary)

latin-mass-society.org/laitysspx.htm

unavoce.org/Protocol539-99.htm

 

[Dropper]

Here’s the most pertinent part of that letter… It answers the question that the original poster had.

The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily because of an attraction to the earlier forms of the Roman Rite in which case they incur no penalty.

And don’t anyone give me the “that was meant for only one person” schpiel. It doesn’t say “you” or “Mr. X you” it says “they” and “the faithful”.