SSPX / RCC talks

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Brother JR, I have often wondered about popes in previous centuries who would excommunicate monarchs because they wouldn’t perform something such as a crusade. I always thought that such an excommunication would be invalid since it stems from political bickering. Am I right in assuming (based on your previous post) that such excommunications would be valid? Can a monarch really be placed outside of the Church because he didn’t take up arms against an adversary of the pope?
It is absolutely valid. The pope is the supreme law giver. Excommunication is a legal disciplinary act. Pope Benedict explained it in one of his books using rather interesting wording. He was speaking about the SSPX. He said that by accepting an illegal ordination they had broken their communion with the primacy. It’s that same example as the popes and the monarchs. The monarchs broke their communion with the primacy.

Dissent with papal authority is an interesting subject. It’s really up to the pope to decide how far you can go before he comes down on you. Personally, I believe that it’s part of spiritual fatherhood. Fathers often let their children push the envelope, but only to a point and then, BANG. You’re in trouble. If we look at the big picture, the relationship is not only one of faith and morals, but its also familial. We’re a family and Peter and his successors are the father.
Whether the father is right or wrong, unless he asks you to violate God’s law, he has certain rights over you.

This was a big issue for some of the SSPX supporters who cited Canon Law in defense of Archbishop Lefebvre. The Archbishop and the other bishops did present that canon on emergency and urgent need, etc as defense. Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul gave a one line response. “This does not apply to you. Therefore, it’s not even going to be considered.” Once the pope decides that the law does not apply to you, you have no appeal. You can either accept his verdict and try another avenue or keep trying to change his mind to get him to see your point of view. I’ll be honest, I’m not sure how one can make a pope change his mind, unless one is a great saint.

The only ones whom I’ve seen to have that kind of persuasive power over popes have been Francis of Assisi, Clare of Assisi, Catherine of Siena, Ignatius of Loyola, Mother Teresa of Calcutta and Jose Maria Escriva. But these folks are spiritual giants and charismatic with upper case letters. They didn’t have to say much to persuade the popes. They just had to be themselves.

Happy Easter,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Very interesting! It opens a whole new dimension for me to think about. I suppose that my thinking has been too influenced by the American/post enlightenment notions of “rights” and due process in regards to the Authority of Christ’s Church.

Happy Easter to you, too!

Tim
 
Very interesting! It opens a whole new dimension for me to think about. *** I suppose that my thinking has been too influenced by the American/post enlightenment notions of “rights” and due process in regards to the Authority of Christ’s Church. ***

Happy Easter to you, too!

Tim
As has mine, and many other American Catholics, I dare say. 😉

A very wise spiritual director once asked me this question-
“Do you want to be an “American-Catholic” or a Catholic who is American?”
Something very interesting to pray about… :juggle:

Happy Easter to all!
 
As has mine, and many other American Catholics, I dare say. 😉

A very wise spiritual director once asked me this question-
“Do you want to be an “American-Catholic” or a Catholic who is American?”
Something very interesting to pray about… :juggle:

Happy Easter to all!
That is a question I have been exploring these past couple of years.

Happy Easter to you!
You folks know how I said that there have been some saints who are charismatic and spiritual giants. I would also add that some of them are also prophets. They do and say things that foreshadow things to come.

Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola and Mother Teresa opposed national allegiances. They embraced the people of the places that they served. They embraced the customs that the Lord encouraged them to embrace. However, the three of them warned their sons and daughters never to pledge allegiance to any nation. Their allegiance is to their religious community and to the Church. Francis of Assisi was the first to do this. St. Ignatius and Bl. Mother Teresa, not having a secular order did not have to worry about service in the armed forces. Francis, having founded three orders that included consecrated religious and consecrated secular men and women, wrote into the rule that the secular brothers and sisters were never to take up arms for any nation, including their own, except under two conditions: a) the pope ordered it and b) they were attacked first.

Some people would focus on the whole issue of patriotism. But that was not the issue at hand with these giants. They had no problem with patriotism. Francis and Ignatius had been soldiers and prisoners of war. Mother Teresa had lived through civil war in India and had adopted Indian citizenship. They had a deeper concern.

They wanted to protect people from what was later called “the American apostasy”. There was and still is a strong tendency to be American Catholics or French Catholics, etc. The national adjective defines one’s Catholicism and influences how one deals with and views the Church.

I had the wonderful privilege of studying theology at two Pontifical Universities, one in the USA and one in Rome. When you walk through the corridors and houses of study that surround the schools, you find such a refreshing sense of Catholicism. There were men from many parts of the world. We spoke many languages and had many ethnic and national customs. However, we always defined ourselves as Catholic. Your country of birth was the place from which you came, it did not identify you. Those of us who belonged to a religious community identified ourselves as: Dominican, Franciscan, Jesuit, Salesian, Spiritans, Alexians, Carmelites, Trappists and so forth.

Every few years there is a Chapter of Mats. It’s a gathering of delegates from all the 100+ branches of the Franciscan family. We come from all over the world. The last one was in 2009 for the 800th anniversary of the founding of the Order. I had the great privilege of being allowed to go. There were friars, sisters, and secular brothers and sisters. The only ones who were not allowed to attend were the Poor Clares, because the Holy Father did not lift the papal enclosure. The point is that we were divided into five language groups, not national groups. You national identity disappeared. Even your place in the order disappeared. Friars, sisters, and seculars met as Franciscans. There were no distinctions made between who is ordained and who is not or who is a consecrated sister and who is a consecrated secular woman, who is a secular Franciscan priest and who is a consecrated Franciscan priest.

Francis often told of a vision that he had. In it, Jesus told him that he would be the new Abraham. He promised him to multiply his sons and daughters as he had done with Abraham. In this vision, Christ promised him that his sons and daughters would see the second coming. But there was one condition that Jesus made. The sons and daughters of Brother Francis had to remain united as one family under the banner of the Church.

Even though this is private revelation, the truth of the matter is that the Franciscan family went through a horrible period of internal conflicts and even meanness between the brothers and sisters. However, it did not disappear. But there was much suffering, because regions and national groups wanted to adapt the spirit of the the founder to their culture and condition. Instead of one family, we had clans at war with each other. Finally, it was Pope Leo XII who pulled everyone back to the founder. Once the national and patriotic nonsense stopped, the family grew in unity and today lives in peace within and with the world. We are Franciscan Catholics who come from many cities, towns and nations. We speak many languages, have many customs and respond to many needs as we find them. But we have two points that unite us to each other and to the world: the Church and our beloved father, Brother Francis. When either one says jump, there is only one response, “How high?”

Have a blessed Easter and may the Risen Lord pour his mercy on each of us this week and always.

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
That is the story that some Traditionalists spin, despite the fact two of the documents are labeled dogmatic. This shows the danger of listening to the SSPX instead of the Church.
Entitling a document “Dogmatic” does not make the whole document one big dogma or every sentence a new dogma. It simply means it is a commentary on Catholic dogma, just like taking a class on “Dogmatic Theology” doesn’t mean that every sentence that comes out of the professor’s mouth is a Catholic dogma.

If there was a new dogma defined at Vatican II, what was it? Why has no one noticed it?
 
Hardliners within the SSPX will never submit to Rome. If Bishop Fellay entered into perfect Communion with Rome, these individuals would most certainly leave the Society.

If the SSPX enters into full communion with Rome, it will definitely be a smaller Society. In fact, it is more likely that SSPX priests will leave the Society and join other traditionalist fraternities such as the FSSP.

In the end, the SSPX will be reduced to a small number of core hardliners who will never be reconciled fully with Rome.
I have no doubt that if Bp. Fellay reaches an agreement with Rome, there will be a split in the Society. Bp. Fellay is seen as a representative of the more conciliatory wing of the SSPX and Bp. Williamson is seen as a representative of the opposing wing and the other bishops, priests and faithful fall into those two “camps” (in addition to the “camp” of those faithful who just go to SSPX Masses because there are no Ecclesia Dei Masses available but have no real allegiance to the SSPX). Probably the conciliatory group will be forced to choose a new name and so they will end up just like Fr. Bisig and the others who left the SSPX to form the FSSP. The SSPX will continue, it will just be smaller.
 
Dear Old, That’s a bit inaccurate … actually since Pius V.
Are you saying that no pope since Pius V has had any authority at all or just no authority to change liturgy? Correct me if I am wrong, but the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Mass) has not changed at all since Pius V. Although I know that Pope Benedict XVI has replaced one of the prayers in the general intercessions for the Good Friday Passion of the Lord Liturgy, which really just states the same thing but in different words.
 
Are you saying that no pope since Pius V has had any authority at all or just no authority to change liturgy? Correct me if I am wrong, but the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Mass) has not changed at all since Pius V. Although I know that Pope Benedict XVI has replaced one of the prayers in the general intercessions for the Good Friday Passion of the Lord Liturgy, which really just states the same thing but in different words.
You are wrong. The Missal of Pius V has gone through 7 revisions, starting with with Pope Clement VIII in 1604 and ending with Pope John XXIII in 1962, which is the only missal that can be used in the EF.
 
Entitling a document “Dogmatic” does not make the whole document one big dogma or every sentence a new dogma.
When it is done as the Catholic Church meeting in Council, it sure as heck does. I refuse to pick and choose which Church Councils are infallible and which are not. Hey, if you want to believe that dogmatic does not mean dogmatic, that is your choice. I will take the Church at Her word. I know the Old Catholic Church also did not accept Vatican I, so this is nothing new. I for one (with a billion others) totally reject the postion of the SSPX, sedevacantists and conclavists on this issue.
 
When it is done as the Catholic Church meeting in Council, it sure as heck does.
pn, there is no doubt the two documents in question are dogmatic, labelled as such or not. But the real question is were they new or not. When the Pope said nothing new was introduced as doctrine, (or something to that effect) then one can presume these were older teachings. So if the SSPX are accused of not accepting Vatican II, they are not only rejecting Vatican II dogmas but some of those before Vatican II as well. Is this a fair accusation?
 
pn, there is no doubt the two documents in question are dogmatic, labelled as such or not. But the real question is were they new or not. When the Pope said nothing new was introduced as doctrine, (or something to that effect) then one can presume these were older teachings. So if the SSPX are accused of not accepting Vatican II, they are not only rejecting Vatican II dogmas but some of those before Vatican II as well. Is this a fair accusation?
No, that would not be a fair accusation. I would never make such a statement, as I do not believe it. As I see it, there are two possibilities:
  1. These particulare dogmatic constitutions contained new doctrine, or…
  2. These particulare dogmatic constitutions contained no new doctrine,
If the first is true, then we have the Catholic Church meeting in Council pronouncing doctrine. If such doctrine is rejected, there is no reason one can not reject any ecumenical council over the last 2000 years.

If however, you have said, there is no new teaching in Vatican II, then there is nothing new with which to disagree. Yet we have current talks between the SSPX and the Holy See, some of which centers on disagreement with Vatican II. Is this not so?

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope_benedict_asks_sspx_to_accept_vatican_ii/
Pope Benedict asks SSPX to accept Vatican II

The Pope said he hopes the bishops will respond to his decision by accepting his authority and the teachings of Vatican II.
So, I have not said that Vatican II contained no new teaching, but if it does not, then isn’t Pope Benedict only asking them to accept that which the Church has always taught?
 
Provobis and Pnewton, is it possible that you guys are discussing two completely different words? I think so.

A dogma is one thing. Dogmatic is another. A dogma is a doctrine to be held by all. Dogmatic is used in the Church to mean an authoritative teaching. The term “dogmatic” is appended to the title to give it force. So, when the Church said the Constitution of the Church in the Modern World, that is one say of saying it.

However, when she says, the Dogmatic Constitution . . . , it’s a call to PAY ATTENTION FOLKS.

Another way that dogmatic is used inside the Church is when you want to say something and leave no room for discussion. You make a dogmatic statement. It’s like when you tell your kids, “This is not negotiable.” You’re not claiming to be infallible. You’re claiming to be in charge.

This is the part that many people on both sides of the aisle reject, when the Church claims to be in charge, whether she has a great idea or a complete bust.

Part of it has to do with our American and Western European mindsets. In our minds, we believe that to be in complete control, to be completely in charge, the authority has to be right according to our criteria, whatever that may be. Catholics who come from Eastern countries, Latin American countries, and countries that were dominated by totalitarianism are so used to authority have the last word, regardless, that they don’t bat an eye lash when the Church says, “This is dogmatic.” If you want to see silent assent, move to an Eastern country and observe the Oriental Catholics. I was amazed at how they force themselves to assent. Their asceticism and discipline is incredible. I believe that it comes from the hardships that they have endured, which we have not. If you grew up in North America or Europe after WW II, you grew up spoiled. These folks did not. They know the difference between dogma and dogmatic. They salute both. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Are you saying that no pope since Pius V has had any authority at all or just no authority to change liturgy? Correct me if I am wrong, but the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Mass) has not changed at all since Pius V. Although I know that Pope Benedict XVI has replaced one of the prayers in the general intercessions for the Good Friday Passion of the Lord Liturgy, which really just states the same thing but in different words.
Well, we have that example (and this year was the first year that we used the new prayer) and we have the whole 1955 Holy Week, the other revisions made for the 1962 Missal (including moving from Singles/Doubles to 1st, 2nd, 3rd Class feasts, restoring Sunday celebrations over saints’ feasts) and the addition of St. Joseph to the Canon.

But even this is very different from what happened in 1970 (although the 1955 Holy Week, written by the same man, was a prelude to it). However, the Roman Rite was not changed when the 1970 Missal was introduced. The 1970 Missal represented the creation of a whole new Rite (new Mass, new forms of the other Sacraments, new Calendar, new Lectionary, new Breviary, etc.). Therefore the 1970 Missal did not radically change the Roman Rite, the Roman Rite was not effected. What we have now are simply two Rites which claim to be the Roman Rite – the Old Rite (which dates to Apostolic times) and the New Rite (which dates to 1970), or in official terms (as of 2007’s “Summorum Pontificum”), the “Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite” (New Rite) and the “Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite” (Old Rite).

The pope’s authority to change the Rite is actually very limited. Fundamentally, the Rite is what we have received from our ancestors. Only very small tweaks should be made and only then if for sufficient reason (this has been especially true since the codification of the Roman Rite at the Council of Trent). The Liturgy is not fundamentally a project for reform or a playground for radicals.

(cont.)
 
(cont.)

Here is what the Holy Father said on the subject:

Cardinal Ratzinger said:
[The Rites, East and West]
elude control by any individual, local community or regional Church. Unsponaneity is of their essence. In these rites I discover that something is approaching me here that I did not produce myself, that I am entering into something greater than myself, which ultimately derives from divine revelation. That is why the Christian East calls the liturgy the “Divine Liturgy”, expressing thereby the liturgy’s independence from human control. The West, by contrast, has felt ever more strongly the historical element, which is why Jungmann tried to sum up the Western view in the phrase “the liturgy that has come to be”. He wanted to show that this coming-to-be still goes on – as an organic growth, not as a specially contrived production. The liturgy can be compared, therefore, not to a piece of technical equipment, something manufactured, but to a plant, something organic that grows and whose laws of growth determine the possibilities of further development. In the West there was, of course, another factor. With his Petrine authority, the pope more and more clearly took over responsibility for liturgical legislation, thus providing a juridical authority for the continuing formation of the liturgy. The more vigorously the primacy was displayed, the more the question came up about the extent and limits of this authority, which, of course, as such had never been considered. After the Second Vatican Council, the impression arose that the pope really could do anything in liturgical matters, especially if he were acting on the mandate of an ecumenical council. Eventually, the idea of the given-ness of the liturgy, the fact that one cannot do with it what one will, faded from the public consciousness of the West. In fact, the First Vatican Council had in no way defined the pope as an absolute monarch. On the contrary, it presented him as the guarantor of obedience to the revealed Word. The pope’s authority is bound to the Tradition of faith, and that also applies to the liturgy. It is not “manufactured” by the authorities. Even the pope can only be a humble servant of its lawful development and abiding integrity and identity. … The authority of the pope is not unlimited; it is at the service of Sacred Tradition. Still less is any kind of general “freedom” of manufacture, degenerating into spontaneous improvisation, compatible with the essence of faith and liturgy. The greatness of the liturgy depends – we shall have to repeat this frequently – on its unspontaneity (Unbeliebigkeit).

With the radicalization of the historical-critical method, it has become very clear today that the ‘sola scriptura’ principle cannot provide a foundation for the Church and the commonality of her faith. Scripture is Scripture only when it lives within the living subject that is the Church. This makes it all the more absurd that a not insignificant number of people today are trying to construct the liturgy afresh on the basis of ‘sola scriptura’. In these reconstructions they identify Scripture with the prevailing exegetical opinions, thus confusing faith with opinion. Liturgy “manufactured” in this way is based on human words and opinions. It is a house built on sand and remains totally empty, however much human artistry may adorn it. Only respect for the liturgy’s fundamental unspontaneity and pre-existing identity can give us what we hope for: the feast in which the great reality comes to us that we ourselves do not manufacture but receive as a gift.
Cardinal Ratzinger:
It seems to me most important that the Catechism, in mentioning the limitation of the powers of the supreme authority in the Church with regard to reform, recalls to mind what is the essence of the primacy as outlined by the First and Second Vatican Councils: The pope is not an absolute monarch whose will is law, but is the guardian of the authentic Tradition, and thereby the premier guarantor of obedience. He cannot do as he likes, and is thereby able to oppose those people who for their part want to do what has come into their head. His rule is not that of arbitrary power, but that of obedience in faith. That is why, with respect to the Liturgy, he has the task of a gardener, not that of a technician who builds new machines and throws the old ones on the junk-pile. The “rite”, that form of celebration and prayer which has ripened in the faith and the life of the Church, is a condensed form of living tradition in which the sphere which uses that rite expresses the whole of its faith and its prayer, and thus at the same time the fellowship of generations one with another becomes something we can experience, fellowship with the people who pray before us and after us. Thus the rite is something of benefit which is given to the Church, a living form of paradosis – the handing-on of tradition.
(cont.)
 
(cont.)

Msgr. Klaus Gamber devotes a whole chapter of “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy” to the question of whether or not the pope has the authority to change the Rite. He may have the authority to make some needed tweaks, but there is plenty of reason to be resistant if a pope decides to make sweeping changes. But with regards to the Old Roman Rite vs the New Roman Rite, there is not that same issue because they are fundamentally two separate Rites. The 1970 Missal did not replace the Roman Rite with something else, it simply introduced a new, and therefore fundamentally optional Rite. I say it is fundamentally optional because the Roman Rite cannot be abrogated (and both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have affirmed that it never was, and therefore never needed an “indult” to celebrate it). The Rite is bigger than any individual, even the pope.

Does the Pope have the authority to change a liturgical rite founded on apostolic tradition and developed over many centuries? We have already discussed and shown that, in the past, the Church hierarchy did not exercise a strong influence on the development of liturgical forms. It simply sanctioned the rite that grew out of local custom, and even the Church practice of officially sanctioning a rite emerged relatively late, only after printed liturgical books became popular. In the West, this practice began after the Council of Trent; and it is defined in Article 22 of the “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy”. Referring to Canon 1257 of the Codex Iuris Canonici [1917 – cf. 1983 CIC n.838]
, it says “The supervision of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which resides in the Apostolic See and, in accord with the law, with the diocesan bishop (… Therefore, no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority).”

The Council did not elaborate on what the term “supervision of the sacred liturgy” (Sacra Liturgiae moderatio) means. If we consider past practices and customs, however, the term cannot mean the type of sweeping revisions of the Mass ritual and the alteration of liturgical texts that we are now experiencing. Rather, we must understand the real meaning in a larger context: Above all, the Council Fathers were intent on preventing every priest from “devising” the liturgical rite “on his own authority” – which, of course, is exactly what is happening today.

The argument could be made that the pope’s authority to introduce a new liturgical rite, that is, to do so without a decision by a council [and this was not decided on by Vatican II, I skipped over those pages – PtC], can be derived from the “full and highest power” (plena et suprema potestas) he has in the Church, as cited by the First Vatican Council, i.e., power over matters ‘quae ad disciplinam et regimen ecclesiae per totum orbem diffusae pertinent’ (“that pertain to the discipline and rule of the Church spread out over all the world”) (Denzinger, 1831).

However, the term ‘disciplina’ in no way applies to the liturgical rite of the Mass, particularly in light of the fact that the popes have repeatedly observed that the rite is founded on apostolic tradition. For this reason alone, the rite cannot fall into the category of “discipline and rule of the Church.” To this we can add that there is not a single document, including the ‘Codex Iuris Canonici’, in which there is a specific statement that the pope, in his function as the supreme pastor of the Church, has the authority to abolish the traditional liturgical rite. In fact, nowhere is it even mentioned that the pope has the authority to change even a single local liturgical tradition. The fact that there is no mention of such authority strengthens our case considerably.

There are clearly defined limits to the ‘plena et suprema potestas’ (full and highest powers) of the pope.

It certainly is not the function of the Holy See to introduce Church reforms. The first duty of the pope is to act as primary bishop (‘episcopus’ = supervisor), to watch over the traditions of the Church – her dogmatic, moral and liturgical traditions.

And we can also say that neither in the Roman Church nor in the Eastern Church has there ever been a patriarch or a bishop who, on his own authority, has undertaken a reform of liturgical rites. That is not to say, however, that over the centuries there has not been an organic development of liturgical forms in the East, as in the West.

Since there is no document that specifically assigns to the Apostolic See the authority to change, let alone to abolish the traditional liturgical rite; and since, furthermore, it can be shown that not a single predecessor of Pope Paul VI has ever introduced major changes to the Roman liturgy, the assertion that the Holy See has the authority to change the liturgical rite would appear to be debatable, to say the least.

[Footnote:]
The following point is worth pondering: As already discussed, according to canon law, a person’s affiliation with a particular liturgical rite is determined by that person’s rite of baptism. Given that the liturgical reforms of Pope Paul VI created a ‘de facto’ new rite, one could assert that those among the faithful who were baptized according to the traditional Roman rite have the right to continue following that rite; just as priests who were ordained according to the traditional ‘Ordo’ have the right to exercise the very rite that they were ordained to celebrate.

– END –
 
pnewton and Br JR, FWIW, the two dogmatic constitutions of Vatican II do refer to previous councils:

Lumen Gentium:
…This it intends to do following faithfully the teaching of previous councils. …
Dei Verbum:
…Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on, so that by hearing the message of salvation the whole world may believe, by believing it may hope, and by hoping it may love…
Good general reference for Vatican II documents in Latin and English.

ewtn.com/library/councils/v2all.htm
 
When it is done as the Catholic Church meeting in Council, it sure as heck does. I refuse to pick and choose which Church Councils are infallible and which are not. Hey, if you want to believe that dogmatic does not mean dogmatic, that is your choice. I will take the Church at Her word. I know the Old Catholic Church also did not accept Vatican I, so this is nothing new. I for one (with a billion others) totally reject the postion of the SSPX, sedevacantists and conclavists on this issue.
Name one new dogma defined by the Second Vatican Council.
 
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