SSPX / RCC talks

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If however, you have said, there is no new teaching in Vatican II, then there is nothing new with which to disagree. Yet we have current talks between the SSPX and the Holy See, some of which centers on disagreement with Vatican II. Is this not so?
There is a difference.

Vatican II did not define any new dogmas. In order for a dogma to be promulgated, it must be explicitly defined, not just implicitly taught, and it cannot contradict other dogmas.

On the other hand, Vatican II appears to have implicitly introduced new teachings contrary to prior teachings (e.g. religious liberty, ecumenical issues, etc.) These are what are debated.
 
pnewton and Br JR, FWIW, the two dogmatic constitutions of Vatican II do refer to previous councils:

Lumen Gentium:

Dei Verbum:

Good general reference for Vatican II documents in Latin and English.

ewtn.com/library/councils/v2all.htm
I knew that. We covered that in Theology of the Church in the seminary. What I was trying to point out to the two of you was not that there was a discontinuity, but that the two words “dogma” and “dogmatic” are used differently in “Church speak”.

As you have correctly pointed out, the Dogmatic Constitution builds on what came before, which were dogmas. Therefore, it stands to reason that the Council would want to make sure to call our attention to this document. That’s why it chooses to begin the title of the document with the word “Dogmatic”.

In reality, all of Vatican II continues where Vatican I left off. Vatican I finished working on defining. Vatican II picks up on the pastoral applications and expressions of what Trent and Vatican I defined. The next council, whenever that is, will probably be what I call a “ecclesial council”. It will probably focus on the Mystical Body and Unity. That’s just my guess, judging from where this last council left off. If we look back, the councils are like Lego pieces, each interlocking but different.

Just my guess. If we’re around in 100 years, we’ll know if I was right or not. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
On the other hand, Vatican II appears to have implicitly introduced new teachings contrary to prior teachings (e.g. religious liberty, ecumenical issues, etc.) These are what are debated.
So you are of the opinion that Vatican II did introduce new teaching. I only note this because it seems a point of controversy. So since Vatican II is now the Church meeting in council and giving doctrine, aren’t we obligated to listen, or is listening to ecumenical church councils optional?
 
Name one new dogma defined by the Second Vatican Council.
I just noticed this post. Now I am really confused. You say:

“Name one new dogma defined by the Second Vatican Council”

“Vatican II appears to have implicitly introduced new teachings”

I think I will stick with Pro Vobis on this and say that Vatican II introduced no new teaching. That is where I have always leaned. Rather the documents of the Council just gave reformulations of previous defined doctrine. I have seen many of the stabs at saying there were contrary teachings from Vatican II and I have yet to see where the SSPX has a valid point. I guess if the bishops of the SSPX are having a hard time reconciling things, there is not point trying here.

newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIA
That an ecumenical council which satisfies the conditions above stated is an organ of infallibility will not be denied by anyone who admits that the Church is endowed with infallible doctrinal authority. How, if not through such an organ, could infallible authority effectively express itself, unless indeed through the pope?
 
Are you saying that no pope since Pius V has had any authority at all or just no authority to change liturgy? Correct me if I am wrong, but the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Mass) has not changed at all since Pius V. Although I know that Pope Benedict XVI has replaced one of the prayers in the general intercessions for the Good Friday Passion of the Lord Liturgy, which really just states the same thing but in different words.
Yes, it has. Minor rubrical changes. My mother still has her 1950’s missal… with annotations of rubrical changes and the date ordered. In the back, she lists the source of the change by date. There were changes in the mid and late 1950’s. Very minor changes to rubrics.
 
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PilgrimToChrist:
The Liturgy is not fundamentally a project for reform or a playground for radicals.
And after your specifically-chosen wording to denigrate the OF liturgy, we find the oft-quoted *Spirit of the Liturgy *treatise by Card. Ratzinger, as if the words spoken as a Cardinal should become dogma when he is made Pope. :rolleyes: Not so fast. A cardinal’s election as pope does not in any way validate his earlier remarks, none of which were protected in the least by the grace of his later office.
To assert that the mind of the Church is known from the work of Joseph Ratzinger in, say, 1990, is no wiser than saying it can be known by his common theological opponent, Walter Kasper. :rolleyes:

So even if some of Cardinal Ratzinger’s remarks seem very negative in isolation from his entire body of work—or indeed even if it were possible to argue that his whole outlook on the Novus Ordo was negative (which was not the case)—this would tell us nothing about the mind of the Church. No, to learn the mind of the Pope (and therefore something of the mind of the Church) on such matters as the liturgy, we need to look to what the Pope has said while in office. [The article explains further in http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=684”]this link.]

My advice to those who seriously dislike the Novus Ordo is this: Admit your personal preference for the Extraordinary Form if you like; true Catholics should not criticize you for it, even if they prefer the Ordinary Form. Combat abuses of the Novus Ordo where you can; the Church will thank you for that. But do not denigrate the rite itself, as if it is something unworthy or profane, and never imply that the billion Catholics who use and have come to love it are somehow inferior in their Faith.
 
Yes, it has. Minor rubrical changes. My mother still has her 1950’s missal… with annotations of rubrical changes and the date ordered. In the back, she lists the source of the change by date. There were changes in the mid and late 1950’s. Very minor changes to rubrics.
True. One could probably still easily use a 1570 A.D. missal to follow the Mass of 1961, granted there were minor changes to rubrics (as you have stated), saints added to the propers, prefaces added, Holy Week changed, and the name of St. Joseph added to the canon. The latter was considered the most major change as it was presumed the Council of Trent codified the canon. There are those who claim the FSSPX has already made major concessions by accepting the insertion of St. Joseph into the Canon and the 1955 Holy Week.
 
…we find the oft-quoted Spirit of the Liturgy treatise by Card. Ratzinger, as if the words spoken as a Cardinal should become dogma when he is made Pope. Not so fast. A cardinal’s election as pope does not in any way validate his earlier remarks, none of which were protected in the least by the grace of his later office…So even if some of Cardinal Ratzinger’s remarks seem very negative in isolation from his entire body of work—or indeed even if it were possible to argue that his whole outlook on the Novus Ordo was negative (which was not the case)—this would tell us nothing about the mind of the Church.
But it also says a lot that enough cardinals knew enough about Cardinal Ratzinger (and his positions) to elect him the Pope. Let’s suppose that he indeed had a negative outlook on the Novus Ordo and other cardinals shared his sentiments; couldn’t he have personally vowed to reform it to the point is was no longer a “banal fabrication?”
 
Yes, it has. Minor rubrical changes. My mother still has her 1950’s missal… with annotations of rubrical changes and the date ordered. In the back, she lists the source of the change by date. There were changes in the mid and late 1950’s. Very minor changes to rubrics.
Here are the 1955 changes

sanctaliturgia.blogspot.com/2005/11/rubricarum-instructum-english.html

The previously 3 collect/secret/postcommunion was reduced to mostly a single one, most Octavas were deleted, many Vigils were deleted, the Last Gospel became always from the first chapter of John, and so on. This change is comparable to the change in the Holy Triduum in the same time.

Related to those the 1962 change (including St Joseph to the Canon) was minor.

During the times the Liturgy was living and changing continuously, the Mass of All Ages is permanent in the concept, not in the words and actions, which are only the clothes of the real thing.
 
Let’s suppose that he indeed had a negative outlook on the Novus Ordo and other cardinals shared his sentiments; couldn’t he have personally vowed to reform it to the point is was no longer a “banal fabrication?”
Certainly he could have, ProVobis. However, we know he did not make any reforms, which he “could have” done simply with another Motu Proprio. 😉
 
Certainly he could have, ProVobis. However, we know he did not make any reforms, which he “could have” done simply with another Motu Proprio. 😉
No form has magic power to change the attitude. The present reality: the people’s church, the emphasis on the human success, the wordly music, in overall the ‘We the people’ concept, preceded the 1970 changes, even preceded Vatican II.

In my opinion only the overall collapse of the Western Culture will resolve this human centered attutude, and will turn back us to God.
 
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PilgrimToChrist:
What we have now are simply two Rites which claim to be the Roman Rite – the Old Rite (which dates to Apostolic times) and the New Rite (which dates to 1970)
Actually, Pilgrim, there are nine rites, and these have changed often since apostolic times. That’s not what is important. The “essence” of the rite, no matter the form, has never been changed, and never will be, or it would not be the Mass, the sacrifice of Christ.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1205 “In the liturgy, above all that of the sacraments, there is an immutable part, a part that is divinely instituted and of which the Church is the guardian, and parts that can be changed, which the Church has the power and on occasion also the duty to adapt to the cultures of recently evangelized peoples.”

1206 “Liturgical diversity can be a source of enrichment, but it can also provoke tensions, mutual misunderstandings, and even schisms. In this matter it is clear that diversity must not damage unity. It must express only fidelity to the common faith, to the sacramental signs that the Church has received from Christ, and to hierarchical communion. Cultural adaptation also requires a conversion of heart and even, where necessary, a breaking with ancestral customs incompatible with the Catholic faith.”
 
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PilgrimToChrist:
Vatican II did not define any new dogmas. In order for a dogma to be promulgated, it must be explicitly defined, not just implicitly taught, and it cannot contradict other dogmas.
There are some personal inferences in your comment, but I’ll let that pass. Note please the obligation to assent on ALL matters even though they are not explicitly labeled “dogmatic.”
Canon Law 752:
  1. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.
And even if “you” believe it was merely a pastoral council, it’s irrelevant, because it nonetheless fulfilled the conditions of Infallibility, as defined by Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 4, Chap. 4:
“… the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is,

  1. ]When carrying out the duty of the Pastor and teacher of all christians,
    ]In accord with his Supreme Apostolic Authority,
    ]He explains
    a doctrine of the faith or morals to be held by the Universal Church
    *, through the divine assistance promised him in blessed Peter, operates with that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished that His Church be instructed in defining doctrine on faith and morals; and so such definitions of the Roman Pontiff from himself, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable. But if anyone presumes to contradict this definition of Ours, which may God forbid: let him be anathema.”

  1. Paul VI, Papal Brief declaring Council Closed, Dec. 8, 1965 solemnly imposed the obligation for assent with this proclamation:
    “At last all which regards the holy Ecumenical Council has, with the help of God, been accomplished and ALL THE CONSTITUTIONS, DECREES, DECLARATIONS, AND VOTES HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE DELIBERATION OF THE SYNOD AND PROMULGATED BY US. Therefore, we decided to close for all intents and purposes, with our APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY, this same Ecumenical Council called by our predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued by us after his death.

    WE DECIDE MOREOVER THAT ALL THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED SYNODALLY IS TO BE RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVED BY ALL THE FAITHFUL, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church… We have approved and established these things, decreeing that the present letters are and remain stable and valid, AND ARE TO HAVE LEGAL EFFECTIVENESS, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described,

    ALL EFFORTS CONTRARY TO THESE THINGS BY WHOEVER OR WHATEVER AUTHORITY, KNOWINGLY OR IN IGNORANCE, BE INVALID AND WORTHLESS FROM NOW ON. Given at Rome, at St. Peter’s, under the [seal of the] ring of the fisherman, December 8… the year 1965, the third year of our Pontificate.”
 
, in overall the ‘We the people’ concept, preceded the 1970 changes, even preceded Vatican II.

In my opinion only the overall collapse of the Western Culture will resolve this human centered attutude, and will turn back us to God.
If the Mystical Body of Christ is not composed of people, then what exactly is it composed of? Perhaps the SSPX needs to accept that there may be a reason the Holy Spirit has guided the Church in the direction the He has taken her. Could it be that there we needed a renewal in how we treated our brothers and sisters, that we needed to return to a stronger unity and greater love of each other? I believe it is critical that we anyone, SSPX or an individual, stands in opposition to something the Church is teaching that they assume a position of humility and assume first that there is something going on that they do not understand. For this postition of humility we attempt to understand how the Holy Spirit is speaking through the Church.
 
If the Mystical Body of Christ is not composed of people, then what exactly is it composed of?
First and primarily of Jesus Christ, who is the head, the Holy Spirit, who is the unifying principle; and only after God consist secondarily of the people, starting with pope, then the bishops, them the clerics, an only at the end the people who came together for God and by God and through God; and who are connected to God not by themselves (as the baptist claim) but through the hierarchy.

Never not for a moment taught the XXI Ecumenical council that people are the Church, or even primary in the Church.
 
So you are of the opinion that Vatican II did introduce new teaching. I only note this because it seems a point of controversy. So since Vatican II is now the Church meeting in council and giving doctrine, aren’t we obligated to listen, or is listening to ecumenical church councils optional?
We can listen but we cannot be obliged to reject prior teaching simply because a new teaching has become popular or is utilized in the documents produced by an Ecumenical Council. Just because some teaching is newer doesn’t mean it is better or that we are forced to follow it, the date something is taught does not matter with regards to it’s authoritative level. If on Monday, the pope says A and by Thursday he says ~A, that doesn’t mean A was true from Monday through Wednesday and then became false on Thursday. The date doesn’t matter, either A is true or false, it cannot be both.

It is a fundamental tenet of Modernism that truth can change, that what we call dogmas are really just an expression of popular theology – of a generation’s belief about God – and the next generation has their own ideas and practices change, beliefs change and even dogmas can change. Truth comes from within, not from without.

An idea ostensibly opposed to this, but still fundamentally based on it, is the idea of an excessive Magisterialism or Postivism. That is, the idea that whatever the current Magisterium is saying is now Catholic orthodoxy and what was yesterday’s orthodoxy is today’s heresy and vice versa. It is that same idea that A can be true Monday through Wednesday and false Thursday through Saturday if the pope so declares it to be true. This is still Modernism and is a denial and perversion of the dogma of Papal Infallibility defined at the First Vatican Council. In fact, it was an idea the Council was trying to eliminate but instead it has become the neoconservative mindset today.
 
Latin Mass Magazine:
With the foundations for the extrinsic tradition having been supplanted, the extrinsic tradition was lost. In other words, since the view of man had changed and since the view of the Deposit of Faith was subjected to a modern analysis, the extrinsic tradition, which rested upon these two, collapsed. We are currently living with the full-blown effects of that collapse. Catholics today have become fixated on the here and now, and in consequence the Church’s traditions have come to be treated not only as irrelevant but also as something to be distrusted and even, at times, demonized.

While the current Magisterium can change a teaching that falls under non-infallible ordinary magisterial teaching, nevertheless, when the Magisterium makes a judgment in these cases, it has an obligation due to the requirements of the moral virtue of prudence to show how the previous teaching was wrong or is now to be understood differently by discussing the two different teachings. However, this is not what has happened. The Magisterium since Vatican II often ignores previous documents which may appear to be in opposition to the current teaching, leaving the faithful to figure out how the two are compatible, such as in the cases of Mortalium Animos and Ut Unum Sint. This leads to confusion and infighting within the Church as well as the appearance of contradicting previous Church teaching without explanation or reasoned justification.

This type of behavior, coupled with the modern philosophical encroachment into the intellectual life of the Church and the bad theology resulting therefrom, has led to a type of “magisterialism.” Magisterialism is a fixation on the teachings that pertain only to the current Magisterium. Since extrinsic tradition has been subverted and since the Vatican tends to promulgate documents exhibiting a lack of concern regarding some previous magisterial acts, many have begun ignoring the previous magisterial acts and now listen only to the current Magisterium.

This problem is exacerbated by our current historical conditions. As the theological community began to unravel before, during and after Vatican II, those who considered themselves orthodox were those who were obedient and intellectually submissive to the Magisterium, since those who dissented were not orthodox. Therefore the standard of orthodoxy was shifted from Scripture, intrinsic tradition (of which the Magisterium is a part) and extrinsic tradition (which includes magisterial acts of the past, such as Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors), to a psychological state in which only the current Magisterium is followed.

Neoconservatives have fallen into this way of thinking. The only standard by which they judge orthodoxy is whether or not one follows the current Magisterium.
As a general rule, traditionalists tend to be orthodox in the sense that they are obedient to the current Magisterium, even though they disagree about matters of discipline and have some reservations about certain aspects of current magisterial teachings that seem to contradict the previous Magisterium (e.g., the role of the ecumenical movement). Traditionalists tend to take not just the current Magisterium as their norm but also Scripture, intrinsic tradition, extrinsic tradition and the current Magisterium as the principles of judgment of correct Catholic thinking. This is what distinguishes traditionalists and neoconservatives

Inevitably, this magisterialism has led to a form of positivism. Since there are no principles of judgment other than the current Magisterium, whatever the current Magisterium says is always what is “orthodox.” In other words, psychologically the neoconservatives have been left in a position in which the extrinsic and intrinsic tradition are no longer included in the norms of judging whether something is orthodox or not. As a result, whatever comes out of the Vatican, regardless of its authoritative weight, is to be held, even if it contradicts what was taught with comparable authority in the past. Since non-infallible ordinary acts of the Magisterium can be erroneous, this leaves one in a precarious situation if one takes as true only what the current Magisterium says. While we are required to give religious assent even to the non-infallible teachings of the Church, what are we to do when a magisterial document contradicts other current or previous teachings and one does not have any more authoritative weight than the other? It is too simplistic merely to say that we are to follow the current teaching. What would happen if in a period of crisis, like our own, a non-infallible ordinary magisterial teaching contradicted what was in fact the truth? If one part of the Magisterium contradicts another, both being at the same level, which is to believed?

Unfortunately, what has happened is that many neoconservatives have acted as if non-infallible ordinary magisterial teachings (such as, for instance, the role of inculturation in the liturgy as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church) are, in fact, infallible when the current Magisterium promulgates them. This is a positivist mentality. Many of the things that neoconservatives do are the result of implicitly adopting principles that they have not fully or explicitly considered. Many of them would deny this characterization because they do not intellectually hold to what, in fact, are their operative principles.
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Never not for a moment taught the XXI Ecumenical council that people are the Church, or even primary in the Church.
Perhaps because it was never an issue. Ecumenical Councils address problem areas and as this is something taught by Jesus, Paul and John (off the top of my head), it simply wasn’t something that was questioned until recent times.

Here is a history of the word:

websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/ECCLESIA?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=ECCLESIA&sa=Search#922

Note that it is, like Solyent Green, people.
 
. If on Monday, the pope says A and by Thursday he says ~A, that doesn’t mean A was true from Monday through Wednesday and then became false on Thursday.
This has not happened. The A, not-A scenario has not occured. I think that logic would dictate that at the least the SSPX must weight the possibility that this 180 degree reversal they see is not there. Most human beings are willing to consider the possibility that they might be wrong.
 
I just noticed this post. Now I am really confused. You say:

“Name one new dogma defined by the Second Vatican Council”

“Vatican II appears to have implicitly introduced new teachings”

I think I will stick with Pro Vobis on this and say that Vatican II introduced no new teaching. That is where I have always leaned. Rather the documents of the Council just gave reformulations of previous defined doctrine. I have seen many of the stabs at saying there were contrary teachings from Vatican II and I have yet to see where the SSPX has a valid point. I guess if the bishops of the SSPX are having a hard time reconciling things, there is not point trying here.

newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIA
Not all teaching is dogma. No new dogma was defined at Vatican II, this has been very well-established, by Pope Paul VI, Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI, and others (contrary to the assertions of some neocons who hold every word written at the Council to be the Word of God).

However, certain things seem “off”. The Council did not utilize Scholastic philosophy or any traditional Catholic philosophy but rather was characterized by Modernism and the Nouvelle Theologie. Several theologians who were “under suspicion” prior to the Council became periti (“experts”) and their philosophies permeate the more controversial documents. The idea is that Scholasticism and traditional Catholic thinking is “outdated” and should be replaced by this new philosophy, in which words and ideas are redefined to mean something other than what they did before. This is contrary to St. Vincent of Lerins’ assertion that we must hold Church teachings not only as to the words but as to their intended meanings, the way our fathers understood them, rather than redefining them.
St. Vincent of Lerins:
Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic, which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors.
Cardinal Ratzinger, referring to the Econe consecrations, admitted that the interpretation of the Council has been wrong:
Cardinal Ratzinger:
Certainly there is a mentality of narrow views that isolate Vatican II and which has provoked this opposition. There are many accounts of it which give the impression that, from Vatican II onward, everything has been changed, and that what preceded it has no value or, at best, has value only in the light of Vatican II.

The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest.
So the real question is whether it is the “Spirit of Vatican II” or the actual documents of Vatican II, which are the problem. Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI maintains to this day that the Council can be re-interpreted in light of Tradition, the “hermenuetic of continuity”.
Pope Benedict XVI:
On the one hand, there is an interpretation that I would call “a hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture”; it has frequently availed itself of the sympathies of the mass media, and also one trend of modern theology. On the other, there is the “hermeneutic of reform”, of renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given to us. She is a subject which increases in time and develops, yet always remaining the same, the one subject of the journeying People of God.
So that’s the real question with regards to the New Mass and with regards to the Second Vatican Council – is it the popular interpretation of it which is the problem or is it the actual documents themselves? Can they be saved by reinterpreting them in light of Tradition?
 
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