J
justme
Guest
The indissolubility of marriage is most certainly a dogmatic issue.
Contraception is arguability a dogmatic issue.
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Contraception is arguability a dogmatic issue.
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Taitofli
Guest
First of all, good day to all and may The Holy Trinity Bless us always, now and forever 
An opinion for me this time is more of a reaction to the SSPX continued slapping the face of the Pope after his gestures of lifting the ex-communication of the 4 bishops and being brave enough to permit a more free use of the Extraordinary Order of the Mass.
The letter is said to be the real thing.
My reaction, like i said, is that of complete pride. They prefer to live in “their” church and not consider what damage they are doing to the mystical body of Our Lord. This is all about pride and not wanting to obey. I mean, Satan didn’t obey God when he revolted with the 1/3 of angels that followed him because it went against his pride.
Theological issues shouldn’t be an impediment to not be united. We all have our opinions about the church’s theology and it’s history. THE CHURCH CAN’T CHANGE! It may change how to say the truth but it is saying the same things.
In these times were values are going out the windows and the respect for the sacred is loosing groud, the church’e sense of unity is also loosing it’s ground Many say it’s the fault of the Council Vatican II. Think it over again, this starts at home, in the each person that learn from their parents and relatives, family.
The Church has gone through so much and it is still standing. Many religious groups have come in the aid of the Church thanks to God always watching over it. I will not turn my eyes and forget this group in my prayers, but i will also look into the Fraternity Priests of St. Peter and others that have maintained the old mass, if to say so, and continue orthodox teachings.
Many interpretations of the Council is wrong. Maybe the wording has something to do with it, but the teachings of the Church are the same. Free will (religious freedom), Unity (ecumenism), I am also guilty of the death of Christ on the Cross not only the Jews in those times (anti-semitism). It was the will of GOD. Respect and obey Our God.
An opinion for me this time is more of a reaction to the SSPX continued slapping the face of the Pope after his gestures of lifting the ex-communication of the 4 bishops and being brave enough to permit a more free use of the Extraordinary Order of the Mass.
The letter is said to be the real thing.
My reaction, like i said, is that of complete pride. They prefer to live in “their” church and not consider what damage they are doing to the mystical body of Our Lord. This is all about pride and not wanting to obey. I mean, Satan didn’t obey God when he revolted with the 1/3 of angels that followed him because it went against his pride.
Theological issues shouldn’t be an impediment to not be united. We all have our opinions about the church’s theology and it’s history. THE CHURCH CAN’T CHANGE! It may change how to say the truth but it is saying the same things.
In these times were values are going out the windows and the respect for the sacred is loosing groud, the church’e sense of unity is also loosing it’s ground Many say it’s the fault of the Council Vatican II. Think it over again, this starts at home, in the each person that learn from their parents and relatives, family.
The Church has gone through so much and it is still standing. Many religious groups have come in the aid of the Church thanks to God always watching over it. I will not turn my eyes and forget this group in my prayers, but i will also look into the Fraternity Priests of St. Peter and others that have maintained the old mass, if to say so, and continue orthodox teachings.
Many interpretations of the Council is wrong. Maybe the wording has something to do with it, but the teachings of the Church are the same. Free will (religious freedom), Unity (ecumenism), I am also guilty of the death of Christ on the Cross not only the Jews in those times (anti-semitism). It was the will of GOD. Respect and obey Our God.
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Cider
Guest
original source of the article is the heterodox National “Catholic” Reporter.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
J
jam070406
Guest
It’s not a slap to the face of the Pope. Read the article again. Bishop Fellay offered a preamble that the Pope found “pleasing”. Then, certain cardinals altered his document. Which Fellay said was unacceptable. Do we even know if said cardinals had permission to alter what “many sources” claimed Pope Benedict found “pleasing”?First of all, good day to all and may The Holy Trinity Bless us always, now and forever
An opinion for me this time is more of a reaction to the SSPX continued slapping the face of the Pope after his gestures of lifting the ex-communication of the 4 bishops and being brave enough to permit a more free use of the Extraordinary Order of the Mass.
The letter is said to be the real thing.
My reaction, like i said, is that of complete pride. They prefer to live in “their” church and not consider what damage they are doing to the mystical body of Our Lord. This is all about pride and not wanting to obey. I mean, Satan didn’t obey God when he revolted with the 1/3 of angels that followed him because it went against his pride.
Theological issues shouldn’t be an impediment to not be united. We all have our opinions about the church’s theology and it’s history. THE CHURCH CAN’T CHANGE! It may change how to say the truth but it is saying the same things.
In these times were values are going out the windows and the respect for the sacred is loosing groud, the church’e sense of unity is also loosing it’s ground Many say it’s the fault of the Council Vatican II. Think it over again, this starts at home, in the each person that learn from their parents and relatives, family.
The Church has gone through so much and it is still standing. Many religious groups have come in the aid of the Church thanks to God always watching over it. I will not turn my eyes and forget this group in my prayers, but i will also look into the Fraternity Priests of St. Peter and others that have maintained the old mass, if to say so, and continue orthodox teachings.
Many interpretations of the Council is wrong. Maybe the wording has something to do with it, but the teachings of the Church are the same. Free will (religious freedom), Unity (ecumenism), I am also guilty of the death of Christ on the Cross not only the Jews in those times (anti-semitism). It was the will of GOD. Respect and obey Our God.
It seems, there are those that would like to sabotage the efforts of the society and Pope to reconcile. It is no secret that power struggles have been going on within the Vatican.
M
Moore11
Guest
I dont know for sure if that is true. But it is one more reason to have the Pope and Fellay sit in a room and hammer this out.
I was fasting from soda ( a big deal for me) for this reconcilliation and the Healthcare law to be struck down. Looks like I wont have a coke and a smile for a while.
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curlycool89
Guest
Jim is correct.
Dogma is something that requires a full and faithful assent of your will. The Trinity, the incarnation, resurrection, ascension, and assumption of Mary are all examples of dogmas. You are required to believe all of the above.
Do you absolutely have to believe that contraception is evil? Arguably you don’t have to believe it so long as you don’t act (use contraception or encourage others to use). Contraception as an act is sinful. If you don’t use contraception, then your sexuality is properly ordered (in that way, it could be disordered in other ways of course).
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Ecoclimber
Guest
St. Clement of Rome said it best in his letter admonishing a certain group within the Corinthian Church who wanted to replace the holy elders of that church.
"Who did not admire the sobriety and moderation of your godliness in Christ? Who did not proclaim the magnificence of your habitual hospitality? And who did not rejoice over your perfect and well-grounded knowledge? For ye did all things without respect of persons, and walked in the commandments of God, **being obedient to those who had the rule over you, and giving all fitting honour to the presbyters among you. **
…becomingly, and be in every respect marked by discretion. envy, strife and sedition, persecution and disorder, war and captivity. So the worthless rose up against the honoured, those of no reputation against such as were renowned, the foolish against the wise, the young against those advanced in years.
For this reason righteousness and peace are now far departed from you, in as much as every one abandons the fear of God, and is become blind in His faith, neither walks in the ordinances of His appointment, nor acts a part becoming a Christian, but walks after his own wicked lusts, resuming the practice of an unrighteous and ungodly envy, by which death itself entered into the world. Who then among you is noble-minded? who compassionate? who full of love?
**Let him declare, “If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away whithersoever ye desire, and I will do whatever the majority commands; only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it.” **He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him.
Blessings to all,
"Who did not admire the sobriety and moderation of your godliness in Christ? Who did not proclaim the magnificence of your habitual hospitality? And who did not rejoice over your perfect and well-grounded knowledge? For ye did all things without respect of persons, and walked in the commandments of God, **being obedient to those who had the rule over you, and giving all fitting honour to the presbyters among you. **
…becomingly, and be in every respect marked by discretion. envy, strife and sedition, persecution and disorder, war and captivity. So the worthless rose up against the honoured, those of no reputation against such as were renowned, the foolish against the wise, the young against those advanced in years.
For this reason righteousness and peace are now far departed from you, in as much as every one abandons the fear of God, and is become blind in His faith, neither walks in the ordinances of His appointment, nor acts a part becoming a Christian, but walks after his own wicked lusts, resuming the practice of an unrighteous and ungodly envy, by which death itself entered into the world. Who then among you is noble-minded? who compassionate? who full of love?
**Let him declare, “If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away whithersoever ye desire, and I will do whatever the majority commands; only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it.” **He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him.
Blessings to all,
J
justme
Guest
Thank you curlycool for this reply. I will give that contraception is a doctrine.
But I do not give that one may publicly disagree on doctrine as one may on theological issues (for instance limbo is a theological issue).
Also divorce and remarraige is not doctrine. It is dogma as it has to do with the Sacrament of Marriage and the Sacraments are a matter of dogma.
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Exorcist
Guest
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curlycool89
Guest
Sorry, I meant that but didn’t specify that part. You can’t publicly disagree on doctrine and therefore cause scandal.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
There is a problem with the analogy of businesses talking to each other.
The SSPX is a religious institution. Bp Fellay is the head of that institution but he is most likely limited in what he may do by the constitutions of the institution. The leaders of religious institutions do not have a free hand in doing whatever they want. Their powers are constrained by the constitutions, statutes, and rules involved with that institution.
It may very well take a general chapter of the SSPX to conclude any sort of “reunion” with the Church.
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Moore11
Guest
That makes sense. But what I dont understand is that he had “authority” to sign earlier and signed with changes to the document. Why would he not have authority to sign now. It seems as if a general chapter was needed we would know that from previous meetings.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
We do not know that he had authority to sign on his own before. There was a lag time between when he received the first document and he returned it (modified) signed.
But that first document was not any sort of “reunification”.
We do not know what is needed and the SSPX has no need to tell us what is needed.
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TrueLight
Guest
Yeah. Okay.
Hope is not yet lost. DiNoia was recently appointed and it may be that he may be able to mediate an acceptable preamble.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I believe that we are past the preamble phase.Yeah. Okay.
Hope is not yet lost. DiNoia was recently appointed and it may be that he may be able to mediate an acceptable preamble.
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Taitofli
Guest
I say again, if true that Bp. Fellay has said he can not sign the document, then i say YES again, a slap in the face for Pope Benedict XVI and his offer for reconciliation, or for a better wording, a welcome back.
If the cardinals changed anything, we do not know. One can assume after all the vatileaks but this has also happened with the SSPX and their leaks. Truly, some faction does not want unity in the church and prefer living divided.
I say again, the Pope got a lot of resistence of issuing the Sumoriam Pontifica, i think that is how you spell it, and also lifting the ex-comummion on these 4 bishops when in he just could left it as it was. The Pope wants unity, and it sounds that what SSPX want is THERE WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. The Pope gave them what they wanted.
Bp Fellay, he must say what he will do, although it seems that that has already been decided.
If the cardinals changed anything, we do not know. One can assume after all the vatileaks but this has also happened with the SSPX and their leaks. Truly, some faction does not want unity in the church and prefer living divided.
I say again, the Pope got a lot of resistence of issuing the Sumoriam Pontifica, i think that is how you spell it, and also lifting the ex-comummion on these 4 bishops when in he just could left it as it was. The Pope wants unity, and it sounds that what SSPX want is THERE WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. The Pope gave them what they wanted.
Bp Fellay, he must say what he will do, although it seems that that has already been decided.
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ringil
Guest
Don’t you think this is getting a little old though?Yeah. Okay.
Hope is not yet lost. DiNoia was recently appointed and it may be that he may be able to mediate an acceptable preamble.
The Pope has been incredibly patient with these guys. I am saying INCREDIBLY!
Their behavior through this has been such an insult to legitimate authority.
Y
YoungTradCath
Guest
The whispers going round now are that the Pope actually accepted the Preamble as modified by Bishop Fellay, but when the bishop went back to Rome, he was handed the same Preamble as before. That’s a head scratcher. Meaning that someone ignored the Pope’s acceptance and just went back to square one. However, rumors are rumors and we don’t know anything yet.
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