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JustaServant
Guest
Once you leave safe harbor of the Church, the only direction** IS** heresy.
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PietroPaolo
Guest
The CDF declared seeing the Second Vatican Council as a rupture (i.e. refusing to use a hermenuetic of continuity) is HERETICAL (source).
SSPX, in this very document, take the stand that V2 is a rupture. Therefore, SSPX is in a state of heresy.
Pretty clear case.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
It seems it was written on the occassion of the 25th anniversary of their illicit episcopal consecrations. I don’t think that they were intending to make any sort of official announcement, but it doesn’t paint a hopeful picture with regards to future dialogue.
D
Deborah_Marie
Guest
Well, then I guess I am a heretic, too, because I would go to a Latin Mass in an SSPX chapel before ever attending a NO Mass again. Fortunately, I am close to the ONLY Latin Mass in my Diocese. So, I attend there. However, if the Bishop of my Diocese ever took that Mass away (because he is self-admittingly not a “fan” of TLM), you bet your hide I would drive the hour and half needed to go to an SSPX Mass before I went to the NO Mass two blocks away from my house!
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PietroPaolo
Guest
That might put you into Schism (and would be a very bad idea) but it wouldn’t mean you were a heretic unless you agree with SSPX on Vat. 2. If so, then you are in an objective state of heresy and need to repent.
A
anruari
Guest
When What happened now?
The Anglican communion have most certainly NOT reconciled with the Catholic Church. The apparent successes in the 80’s were dashed against jagged rocks when they used a democratic vote to announce the Ordination of Women “Priests”.
As a communion they aren’t even in communion with themselves, with some of their senior bishops openly denying the Divinity of God the Creator… saying that our world neesds to “move beyond Theism”.
In recent years, the Personal Ordinariates of Our Lady of Walsingham, and of the Chair of St. Peter, and Our Lady of the Southern Cross have been established to provide a route for individuals and groups of various sizes to defect from the Anglican Communion and Join the Catholic Church, while retaining almost all of their liturgical tradition, and identity. The Ordinariates will act almost like a new “Rite” but without the formal standing or formal autonomy of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches.
The few independant traditionalist churches that attempted to convert as a solid unit typically ended up loosing large proportions of their membership who remained in the Anglican Communion, and refused to join the Catholic Church.
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malphono
Guest
Yes, and as I read it, all they’ve done is reiterate their standard party line. :yawn:
Seems to me that the SSPX missed its “window of opportunity” this past February. Such possibilities don’t come around very often, and somehow I doubt there’s going to be much by way of “dialogue” in the near future.
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hazcompat
Guest
They say
…"6- Religious Liberty, as exposed by Dignitatis humanae and its practical application these last fifty years, logically leads to demanding God-made-Man to renounce His reign over man-who-makes-himself-God, which is equivalent to dissolving Christ. In the place of a conduct which is inspired by a solid faith in the real power of Our Lord Jesus Christ, we see the Church being shamefully guided by human prudence and with such self-doubt that she asks nothing other from the State than that which the Masonic Lodges wish to concede to her: the common law in the midst of, and on the same level as, other religions which she no longer dares call false.
7- In the name of a ubiquitous ecumenism (Unitatis redintegratio) and of a vain inter-religious dialogue (Nostra Aetate), the truth about the one true Church is silenced; also, as a large part of the clergy and the faithful no longer see in Our Lord and the Catholic Church the unique way of salvation, they have renounced to convert the adepts of false religions, leaving them rather in ignorance of the unique Truth. This ecumenism has thus literally killed the missionary spirit through seeking a false unity, too often reducing the mission of the Church to that of delivering a message of a purely terrestrial peace and of a humanitarian role of lessening want in the world, placing it thereby in the wake of international organisations.
8- The weakening of faith in Our Lord’s divinity favours a dissolution of the unity of authority in the Church, by introducing a collegial, egalitarian and democratic spirit, (see Lumen Gentium). Christ is no longer the head from which everything flows, in particular the exercise of authority. The Sovereign Pontiff who no longer exercises effectively the fullness of his authority, and the bishops who – contrary to the teaching of Vatican I – esteem that they can collegially and habitually share the fullness of the supreme power, commit themselves thereby, with the priests, to listen to and to follow ‘the people of God,’ the new sovereign. This represents the destruction of authority and in consequence the ruin of Christian institutions: families, seminaries, religious institutes.’
Peace
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Fairwinds
Guest
do they give the sermon in Latin?
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Boulder257
Guest
This. They mistook Pope Benedit’s “reaching out” as a sign of weakness and thought they could “negotiate” for more. The whole thing is an absolute mess and very sad. I fear for what comes next for them and for those that follow them.Seems to me that the SSPX missed its “window of opportunity” this past February. Such possibilities don’t come around very often, and somehow I doubt there’s going to be much by way of “dialogue” in the near future.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
I met a couple of these folks recently. They truely have blinders on, they appear to have been heavily indoctrinated. They certainly are fixated on their since of what is true and what isn’t.
Linus2nd
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Boulder257
Guest
I thought you weren’t going to continue with this thread for fear that you could not be charitable?
Oh well, in answer to your post, your desire to attend an SSPX Chapel does not make you heretical, although,based on your reasoning it may make you schismatic. Only you know the answer to that question.
J
JReducation
Guest
To allege that the SSPX is heretical requires one of two things, either a stretch of the definition of heretic or a decree by the only person who has the authority to call anyone a heretic, the Bishop of Rome.
Having said that, we must be very cautious with the content of their statement. There are several serious problems in it.
There is a danger here that the bishops of the SSPX will ordain other bishops to succeed them. If they do this, these bishops will excommunicate themselves, again. My concern is that if they do so, will they break with Rome. I don’t know. But it is possible. It is also possible for Rome to jettison the SSPX from the Church, if the leadership makes such a choice. Let’s pray that they do not ordain another bishop.
There is a contradiction in their thinking. They allege that the papacy has lost authority. However, they refer to an archbishop who died outside of the Church as “venerable”. You can’t have it both ways. Either the pope has the last word and Archbishop Lefebvre was outside of the Church or the pope does not have the authority to sustain the excommunication.
Either the pope has the authority to interpret and apply canon law at his discretion or he does not.
You can’t have a papacy with absolute and unquestioning legal and moral authority with restrictions that you impose on it, such as using the law in a way that the pope does not use it.
These are real problem areas.
The best we can do is to pray for a resolution to this nightmare.
Having said that, we must be very cautious with the content of their statement. There are several serious problems in it.
- It is an attack on the popes of recent years, even if it does not name them.
- The SSPX demands the right to correct and denounce anyone whom they perceive to be in conflict with truth. But this would elevate the SSPX to a second Magisterium and would give the SSPX the same authority as the CDF, which is the official organism through which the Holy See corrects errors and defends truth, along with the bishops of the world.
- The SSPX has no canonical place in the Church. Therefore, whatever statement the SSPX makes about the Church is only an opinion. It carries no authority. Any faithful Catholic who credits it with any authority is confusing the issue. Organizations and individuals can have opinions, but only those with a canonical place in the Church can make an authoritative teaching statement.
- There are statements in the document that are heresy and some that border on heresy. However, we must distinguish between a statement that is a heresy and a person who is a heretic. Many faithful Catholics make heretical statements all the time. Either they don’t know their faith or they have a very strong opinion on some subject and they are convinced that their opinion is correct. I believe that the situation in the SSPX is the latter.
There is a danger here that the bishops of the SSPX will ordain other bishops to succeed them. If they do this, these bishops will excommunicate themselves, again. My concern is that if they do so, will they break with Rome. I don’t know. But it is possible. It is also possible for Rome to jettison the SSPX from the Church, if the leadership makes such a choice. Let’s pray that they do not ordain another bishop.
There is a contradiction in their thinking. They allege that the papacy has lost authority. However, they refer to an archbishop who died outside of the Church as “venerable”. You can’t have it both ways. Either the pope has the last word and Archbishop Lefebvre was outside of the Church or the pope does not have the authority to sustain the excommunication.
Either the pope has the authority to interpret and apply canon law at his discretion or he does not.
You can’t have a papacy with absolute and unquestioning legal and moral authority with restrictions that you impose on it, such as using the law in a way that the pope does not use it.
These are real problem areas.
The best we can do is to pray for a resolution to this nightmare.
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Boulder257
Guest
Wow. I never put that together, but you are absolutely correct. That’s an amazing track record and certainly something to take note of.
K
kozlosap
Guest
:tiphat: thank you so much Brother! Once again you have clarified an issue with superb mastery! I pray that Deborah reads and internalizes your very well researched response.
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PietroPaolo
Guest
I’d be hesitant to make the claim in bold above, for two reasons.
- The “Right” and the “Left” are only a couple hundred years old, dating to the French Revolution 18 centuries after Christ. The idea that monothelitism or docetism or Arianism are “right-wing” heresies is anachronistic.
- Over the last couple hundred years the Church has been assailed with heresies from both the “left” and the “right”. SSPX and other “rad-trad” groups are examples of breakaway movements from the right, but certainly there are examples from the “left” as well Nuns on the Bus, Unitarianism, and Modernism (perhaps the heresy of the last 2 centuries) come to mind.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
As I read the article, the SSPX didn’t withdraw from the Church, they withdrew from talks. I would not doubt the SSPX will ordain other bishops, and those bishops will be valid, no matter what we or the Vatican think about it. Nobody denies they have apostolic succession. The SSPX has never claimed to be a separate church.
The Pope might well excommunicate them, but it is not possible for the Vatican to throw them out of the Church. They really aren’t heretical. They don’t deny the validity of the Papacy or Catholic sacraments or doctrines. Their priests are real priests and their sacraments are valid.
They are disobedient in saying some VII documents contain heresy and refusing to accept that they dont. But that’s it.
Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, Kathleen Sebelius and others of their kind are a much greater threat to the Church than the SSPX are.
Having said all that, it must also be said that some SSPX members could go schismatic from the SSPX. I’m guessing the fear of that is what impelled this breaking off of talks about regularizing SSPX.
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PietroPaolo
Guest
Arch. Muller, Head of the CDF, has clearly stated that thinking “some VII documents contain heresy” is ITSELF heretical. SSPX holds this view. Thus, they are heretical. Whether or not Pelosi, et. al. are worse offenders has nothing to do with anything.
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CantareVivace
Guest
Very sad indeed.
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hazcompat
Guest
Quare tristis es, anima mea, et quare conturbas me? Spera in Deo, quoniam adhuc confetibor salutare vultus mei et Deus meus…Ut quid Domine, recessisti longe, despicis in opportunitate, in tribulation? Non me derelinquas usquequaque.
Pax
Pax
- Status