SSPX Teaching Video

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Just a footnote also. the SSPX priest is entirely incorrect in calling married deacons lay people. I know, the last time I was in Guatemala in the early 90"s I was staying at a Maryknoll house in Guatemala City. One morning the breakfast conversation had to do with whether the Church would ever have a married clergy. Their conclusion was no. I laughed and spoke up at that time and reminded them, “Excuse me gentlemen, we are here.” They sheepishly agreed they goofed.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

An afterthought. A Catholic Deacon is not a lay deacon. As a Catholic that is an oxymoron.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[NicPais83]

That is true but we never had married deacons. That is what Father was talking about. We had the transitional deacons with the different kinds like the subdeacon. These men were deacons who were on their way to the priesthood.

The permanent married deacon is a novelty not part of traditional Catholicism in centuries.

They are ordained, but the priest calls them lay people because it is such a novelty to have a married man with family, who would otherwise be a lay man, raised to the deaconate.

First, I have to interject on the comment about the deaconate. The deaconate and the subdeaconate, while having a similar wording are NOT the same thing. The subdeaconate was not ordained by laying on of hands; they were simply presented with a paten.

Next, even referring to the deaconate as lay shows a lack of respect for the office of the deaconate and a lack of understanding as to the functions of a deacon. The transitional deacons were ordained, unlike the subdeacons. However, this was something of a remnant of what the deaconate once was. The problem was that the transitional deaconate, while important to the formation of Priests, also down-played the deaconate itself to being only a step towards the priesthood, instead of a vocation. The Second Vatican Council breathed new life into the deaconate, and I thank them for that. You should be careful what statements you make to people, as my father is a permanent Deacon, and I should think that he’s raised me well enough to be loyal to Holy Mother Church!

While married clergy may be something that the Latin Church hasn’t seen in centuries, that doesn’t make it wrong as it is within Holy Mother Church’s wisdom to allow or not to allow. As for the Priesthood, the nature of this Major Order is such that Holy Mother Church has deemed that only single men are admitted to the Priesthood of the Latin Church. I am in no way advocating that that change, but stating that a married Deaconate has NO impact on the celebacy of Priests.

 

[NicPais83]

The Church grows organically. There was organic development of doctrine, so the novelty of a married permanent deacon is the error of antiquarianism already condemned by Pope Pius XII.
That is why Pope John Paul II made a huge mistake when he allowed certain former Protestant ministers to become priests.

You have already used the arguement of antiquarianism before, based off of Mediator Dei. But, Mediator Dei itself mentions that error is for those who do not have the authority to alter the rituals of the Latin Church to take it upon themselves to do so. In Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII talks about how it is up to the Holy See to apply any Liturgical findings, if deemed appropriate. If the Pope were not allowed to revive older traditions, then Pope Pius XII’s own Liturgical reforms were in error, as he reintroduced some anticient traditions back into the Latin Church, particularly in the Triduum:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_xii#Liturgy_reforms.

No one here is arguing that there should not be a desire to cling to the traditions of the Church. Christ gave us Scripture and Tradition to guide us.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The Church grows organically. There was organic development of doctrine, so the novelty of a married permanent deacon is the error of antiquarianism already condemned by Pope Pius XII. That is why Pope John Paul II made a huge mistake when he allowed certain former Protestant ministers to become priests.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[nannygirl]

I have gone to their site. I have gone to the website of the Baptists, Jehovah Witness, sedevacantists, atheists, Billy Graham. I have no fear of any of them.
How can you understand them if you avoid them? Doesn’t the church desire “dialogue” with those separated from us and even with non-christians?

I agree. They have a nice bookstore, too.

 

[saint_rafael]

Sorry to tell you but Cardinal Ratzinger, aka Pope Benedict XVI was the one in the middle of negotiations between the sspx and the Holy See. HE knows exactly why the excommunications were handed down and will no more lift them than he would the excommunication against Martin Luther.

St. Joan of Arc was rehabilitated because her sentence was politically motivated by ambitious men. There is no way one can compare or excuse the Archbishop’s willful disobedience in regard to Pope John Paul II’s warning of excommunication.

Archbishop Lefebvre’s excommunication was also politically motivated. Pope John Paul II could not stand up to the mafia cardinals in the Vatican. He also did not accept Lefevre’s defense of state of emergency. He was unjustly denied a canonical trial.

Cardinal Ratzinger was sympathetic to the SSPX but he was not the Pope at the time. He was deeply sadened and was famously said to have stated that it was one of the two biggest things that he felt troubled by. He was said to have stated “I Failed”.

Cardinal Hoyos also told the head of the SSPX, Bishop Fellay, that lifting the ex-communications would be easier than granting a Motu Proprio liberating the Latin Mass.

 

[Timothysis]

Archbishop Lefebvre’s excommunication was also politically motivated. Pope John Paul II could not stand up to the mafia cardinals in the Vatican. He also did not accept Lefevre’s defense of state of emergency. He was unjustly denied a canonical trial.

Where, oh where do you get your information? I don’t suppose you can supply us with a list of the “mafia cardinals” who twisted the Pope’s arm, huh?

The official Legislator of Canon Law informed the archbishop that his “state of emergency” DID NOT APPLY as far as Canon Law is involved. It would seem that a “state of emergency” must be an objective state, not subjective as in the archbishops case.

I state again that the excommunications against the leadership of the sspx involved DISOBEDIENCE!!! Ordinations were performed without a Papal Mandate, in violation of Canon Law!!! The penalty for that violation is excommunication! What is so hard to understand about that???

 

[NicPais83]

Archbishop Lefebvre’s excommunication was also politically motivated. Pope John Paul II could not stand up to the mafia cardinals in the Vatican. He also did not accept Lefevre’s defense of state of emergency. He was unjustly denied a canonical trial.

Please refrain from terms such as “Mafia Cardinals,” as those of us who are Italian might find that a little rude.

If the Pope does not accept Lefevre’s defence of a state of emergency, then that is a sign that Lefevre invented his state of emergency. If you are to accuse Pope John Paul II of being politically motivated or caving in on this issue, then you must provide citations and sources to back up this claim, as it sounds rather far fetched.

We shouldn’t be arguing amongst ourselves here. We are members of the Catholic Church, period. As such, Jesus ordered us to love one-another.

 

[catharina]

If you are to accuse Pope John Paul II of being politically motivated or caving in on this issue, then you must provide citations and sources to back up this claim, as it sounds rather far fetched.

It sounds like standard issue for sedevacantists though.

 

[piouswoman]

Again, as Deacon Ed and I and others have stated (more than once) the sspx bishops, including the leader /bishop at the head of sspx are in fact, excommunicated schismatics. As it happens, members of sspx are not excommunicated schismatics. That’s as kind and charitable as a remark can get. The founder of sspx, M. Lefebvre, died while still publicly excommunicated as a schismatic. Yes, truth is truth.

The real truth?..TRADITION was excommunicated from the Church.

 

[catharina]

The real truth?..TRADITION was excommunicated from the Church.

I hope you get help for your problem.
The Church guards both Scripture and Tradition.
What you’re saying is a rejection of Christ’s promise that He will guard the Church for all time.

Please take such issues to prayer.

 

[Sarpedon]

The real truth?..TRADITION was excommunicated from the Church.

Then that means that the time for that tradition was over. What is so hard to get about this?

I’ve never understood why people worship tradition so much. In many cases it seems to supplant God- thus making it an idol.

 

[saint_rafael]

The official Legislator of Canon Law informed the archbishop that his “state of emergency” DID NOT APPLY as far as Canon Law is involved. It would seem that a “state of emergency” must be an objective state, not subjective as in the archbishops case.

I state again that the excommunications against the leadership of the sspx involved DISOBEDIENCE!!! Ordinations were performed without a Papal Mandate, in violation of Canon Law!!! The penalty for that violation is excommunication! What is so hard to understand about that???

Archbishop Lefebvre did not get a Canonical trial to prove his case and he had a valid case. The Church had already collapsed by then. Pope Jonn Paul II should have let Lefebvre have his bishops but was too afraid of the liberal modernist cardinals in the Curia and did not want to stick out his neck for tradition.

I suggest Fr. Malachi Martin’s the Windswept House in order to understand how the Vatican worked and the mindset of Pope John Paul II. Fr. Martin called that gang the Superforce.

Last time I heard, one of the members, Cardinal Sodano, was still occupying the apartments and offices of the secretary of state even though Bertone replaced him months ago. That is how bad a mess the Vatican is now today. If I was Pope Benedict, I would have thrown him in the Vatican jail a long time ago.

As far as the state of emergency, Pope Benedict told Bishop Fellay in their Aug. '05 meeting, that the state of emergency would be over because he himself would fix it. I think Pope Benedict has to do immediate extremely drastic moves because the Church has become ungovernable. Good luck Holy Father, because at this point, only a direct intervention from God could fix the Church.

 

[saint_rafael]

Yes one can be a traditional Catholic, because “Catholic” and “Traditional” don’t mean post Great-Schism medieval Latin Church. The tradition of allowing both celibate and married priests is much older than the tradition of a celibate only priesthood. Even in the Latin Church. Even if the Latin Church only “tolerated” married men becoming priests it was still part of the tradition. It is those who try to pass these priests off as some sort of second-class clergy that are breaking with Tradition, as well as belittling, those priests/deacons of the other Catholic Churches within the Catholic Church.
is it that some of us Latins seem to think or act as if by allowi

No, the tradition and norm has always been celibacy. Married clergy were an abuse. The Church tolerated the abuse, but it was an abuse and not tradition.

The abuse got so bad, the it had completely corrupted the Church and clegy, and that is why the Church reformed and made celibacy mandatory without question.

Tradition did not start in the medievil era, but the Church moves linear through time. The Church is always moving forward. Each time it grew organically. Celibacy is never going to change in the Latin rite. It is set in stone. One has to grasp the supernatural to understand why.
The priesthood has flourished with celibacy. It was only when the Church abandoned tradition and the Latin Mass did the priesthood collaspsed.

If you want a married clergy, fine, but it is not a traditional position. It is a liberal position. No traditionalist and the traditional movement do not believe in that position.

 

[saint_rafael]

Where on earth did you get that impression?
Source, please - and ASAP.

That Peter was a widow when he was an apostle has been part of the tradition in the Church. Peter’s wife had died and this was not directly mentioned in the Bible. However, one can see indirectly from the Bible that he was a widow.

In Matthew 8:14-15, Jesus goes to Peter’s house and heals Peter’s mother-in-law from a fever. She then waits on them.

In traditional Jewish culture of that time, it is the wife that waits on her husband and the guests in her house. Peter’s wife is not in his house and is absent because she had already died. It was Peter’s mother-in-law who lived with him and waited on them because her daughter had died and she took her place taking care of Peter’s house.

 

[catharina]

That Peter was a widow when he was an apostle has been part of the tradition in the Church. Peter’s wife had died and this was not directly mentioned in the Bible. However, one can see indirectly from the Bible that he was a widow.

In Matthew 8:14-15, Jesus goes to Peter’s house and heals Peter’s mother-in-law from a fever. She then waits on them.

In traditional Jewish culture of that time, it is the wife that waits on her husband and the guests in her house. Peter’s wife is not in his house and is absent because she had already died. It was Peter’s mother-in-law who lived with him and waited on them because her daughter had died and she took her place taking care of Peter’s house.

I’m still waiting for the source for that notion. SOURCE??? Not “That Peter was a widow when he was an apostle has been part of the tradition in the Church.”

 

[catharina]

Archbishop Lefebvre did not get a Canonical trial to prove his case and he had a valid case. The Church had already collapsed by then. Pope Jonn Paul II should have let Lefebvre have his bishops but was too afraid of the liberal modernist cardinals in the Curia and did not want to stick out his neck for tradition.

I suggest Fr. Malachi Martin’s the Windswept House in order to understand how the Vatican worked and the mindset of Pope John Paul II. Fr. Martin called that gang the Superforce.

Last time I heard, one of the members, Cardinal Sodano, was still occupying the apartments and offices of the secretary of state even though Bertone replaced him months ago. That is how bad a mess the Vatican is now today. If I was Pope Benedict, I would have thrown him in the Vatican jail a long time ago.

As far as the state of emergency, Pope Benedict told Bishop Fellay in their Aug. '05 meeting, that the state of emergency would be over because he himself would fix it. I think Pope Benedict has to do immediate extremely drastic moves because the Church has become ungovernable. Good luck Holy Father, because at this point, only a direct intervention from God could fix the Church.

Apparently you don’t see that you are in direct opposition to the Chair of Peter.

How odd - and sad.

 

[PrayforMallory]

This has been an interesting thread, though most of the discussion seems to focus on the priest’s views of married deacons.

What about some of the other issues? I’m mainly concerned about the history of these practices. For example, a discussion of the Protestant practices that this priest charges were incorporated into the Novus Ordo?

Thanks.

 

[I_Believe]

The SSPX and their flock would appear as scrupulous, disobedient, nut cases… IF they were ignored by Rome, and IF they were wrong.

But, they are neither ignored by Rome, nor are they wrong in their stance. Cardinal Hoyos has said it is an internal matter, referring to the SSPX. The Pope has said he does not want to hear the words “schismatic” or “excommunicated” from those around him when discussing the situation.

Their schools are second to none, and their clergy are as good as it gets.

If the SSPX is wrong in their views, then so was the Church for an awful long time. And we all know the Church wasn’t wrong all that time.

God Bless the SSPX, and God Bless Pope BXVI, Cardinal Hoyos, Archbishop Ranjith, Archbishop Burke, and others of like mindset.

The rest can let their denial of heresy, sacrilege, and the truth eat them alive if they wish to do so. Hotel Hell will leave the light on for them.