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ringil
Guest
The Pope is orthodoxy itself. It is an oxymoron to state “orthodox Pope”.
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Dee_S
Guest
:thumbsup:excellent post. I think we have been too influenced by Calvinism in the west, as one can see that any expression of joy in the service of God is a no-no and viewed with suspicion…all pious people are expected to be quiet, prim & proper.…somehow think we have lost something along the way
"Teresa (St Theresa of Avila) was equally serious about celebrating the joyful moments of life. She was known to dance and she often picked up a tamborine and composed songs for the Sisters enjoyment (in the choir of the chapel). :harp:
God deliver me from gloomy saints she once said, telling her Nuns what NOT to be!"
okcarmel.org/teresa_of_avila.htm
Pope John Paul II in his General Audience of June 19,1991 says:
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace…” (Gal 5:22). Only the Holy Spirit gives a profound, full and lasting joy, which every human heart desires. The human person is being made for joy, not for sadness."
"In the Gospel texts which concern the public life of Jesus, we read that at a certain moment he himself “rejoiced in the Holy Spirit” (Lk 10:21). Jesus expressed joy and gratitude in a prayer which celebrates the Father’s loving kindness: “I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike.”(Lk 10:21).
“St. Luke attests that the disciples, who had received the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit at the time of the ascension, “returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and they were continually in the Temple praising God” (Lk 24:52-53)”.:dancing:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19910619en.html
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Faithdancer
Guest
So if the next pope declares that lay people will no longer allowed to receive the Eucharist, that will automatically be “orthodox” because the pope is “orthodoxy itself?”
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Faithdancer
Guest
Dancing for joy is one thing, dancing girls creating a distraction in the Mass, and drawing attention to themselves and away from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the altar- is quite another.:thumbsup:excellent post. I think we have been too influenced by Calvinism in the west, as one can see that any expression of joy in the service of God is a no-no and viewed with suspicion…all pious people are expected to be quiet, prim & proper.…somehow think we have lost something along the way
"Teresa (St Theresa of Avila) was equally serious about celebrating the joyful moments of life. She was known to dance and she often picked up a tamborine and composed songs for the Sisters enjoyment (in the choir of the chapel). :harp:
God deliver me from gloomy saints she once said, telling her Nuns what NOT to be!"
okcarmel.org/teresa_of_avila.htm
Pope John Paul II in his General Audience of June 19,1991 says:
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace…” (Gal 5:22). Only the Holy Spirit gives a profound, full and lasting joy, which every human heart desires. The human person is being made for joy, not for sadness."
"In the Gospel texts which concern the public life of Jesus, we read that at a certain moment he himself “rejoiced in the Holy Spirit” (Lk 10:21). Jesus expressed joy and gratitude in a prayer which celebrates the Father’s loving kindness: “I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike.”(Lk 10:21).
“St. Luke attests that the disciples, who had received the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit at the time of the ascension, “returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and they were continually in the Temple praising God” (Lk 24:52-53)”.:dancing:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19910619en.html
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Faithdancer
Guest
Was David dancing to be eye candy for people in pews? You confuse a spontaneous dance of joy by God’s anointed king on a most historic occasion with planned, choreographed (marginally) dance as spectacle, inserted into the Mass because some liturgical coordinator convinced him or herself and others that the timeless elements of the Mass- such as the sacrifice on the altar- are not enough.
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Faithdancer
Guest
It seems, sir, that your last sentence was premature- or prophetic.
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Faithdancer
Guest
Mrs. Sally, I think Mike was being satirical, not necessarily uncharitable. There are also long posts here and on the other SSPX forums by those who pretend to be neutral but in reality have an axe to grind against the SSPX. I took Mike’s post as addressing that kind of hypocrisy.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
You are right. I was tired and taken aback because I think these recent threads have been very good.
As for the dancing during Mass I agree with you that real joy and liturgical dance are not at all the same thing. As a trained dancer I never thought a choreographed dance was appropriate during Mass. In other venues ( say a Christmas patent) yes. I also think that a bit of thought should go into stripping the altar on Holy Thursday so that it is solemn and doesn’t look like the altar boys are clearing off the kitchen table.
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ringil
Guest
You don’t know the faith very well if you believe this is possible.
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Diana_Catherine
Guest
That’s what I’m praying for too.
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Faithdancer
Guest
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Faithdancer
Guest
Isn’t that interesting, Mrs. Sally, that someone who understands dance understands that it isn’t necessary in the liturgy? People who know I’m a choreographer are sometimes surprised to hear my views on liturgical dance. I feel completely fulfilled, however, in making dances which subtly evangelize in the secular world. Right now we are working on a dance set to “Somebody to Love.” I told the dancers that the music is gospel and some of the movements reference Salvador Dali’s “Purgatorio” woodcuts. I also told them that Freddie Mercury died of AIDS and told them in essence that while I don’t condone his lifestyle, it is obvious that from that song and certain other works by Queen, there was some serious spiritual yearning going on in that band. Of the dancers involved, none are Catholic, one is Sikh, and one *thinks *she is an atheist. In my opinion, that is the value of faith-based or Scripture-inspired dance- to evangelize in the secular world.
And sorry, this post is way off topic. Though I think that even the “dour” or “puritanical” such as some might imagine SSPX chapel-goers to be might approve of dance that is intended to remind others of the good news of Jesus Christ, and to reach as wide an audience as possible in doing so. And you, at least, will understand Mrs. Sally when I say I think that faith-inspired dance presented to secular audiences, in particular, should have strong technique and choreography, and not just consist of ladies in big flowing gowns waving their arms around and doing an occasional chaine turn.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Oh that image made me laugh! Yes I completely agree! Your new dance sound very interesting. If you post to YouTube let me know. You can pm me if you’d prefer. I’d love to see your work.
Ok now back to the new Pope and what might happen with the SSPX.
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Faithdancer
Guest
Will do, thanks!
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Mike30
Guest
WOW!:thumbsup:excellent post. I think we have been too influenced by Calvinism in the west, as one can see that any expression of joy in the service of God is a no-no and viewed with suspicion…all pious people are expected to be quiet, prim & proper.…somehow think we have lost something along the way
"Teresa (St Theresa of Avila) was equally serious about celebrating the joyful moments of life. She was known to dance and she often picked up a tamborine and composed songs for the Sisters enjoyment (in the choir of the chapel). :harp:
God deliver me from gloomy saints she once said, telling her Nuns what NOT to be!"
okcarmel.org/teresa_of_avila.htm
Pope John Paul II in his General Audience of June 19,1991 says:
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace…” (Gal 5:22). Only the Holy Spirit gives a profound, full and lasting joy, which every human heart desires. The human person is being made for joy, not for sadness."
"In the Gospel texts which concern the public life of Jesus, we read that at a certain moment he himself “rejoiced in the Holy Spirit” (Lk 10:21). Jesus expressed joy and gratitude in a prayer which celebrates the Father’s loving kindness: “I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike.”(Lk 10:21).
“St. Luke attests that the disciples, who had received the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit at the time of the ascension, “returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and they were continually in the Temple praising God” (Lk 24:52-53)”.:dancing:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19910619en.html
Since we were discussing an event, liturgical dancing, that took place within the context of a Mass, in particular the concluding Mass of the Los Angeles Cogress, I can only infer from your post that my old friend Saint Teresa would take off her shoes, pick up a tambourine, sing and start to dance during the sacrifice of the Mass.
i somehow doubt that she did that, but if you could point me to some document where it states categorically that she did so, i will accept it.
What she did outside of the structure of the Mass really has no place in this discussion as we were speaking solely about an event that occured during a Mass. Hey she could turn cartwheels and dance and blow trumpets and drink wine outside of the Mass. Thats fine.
As for David, different faith, differnt circumstances and not in the context of ritual worship.
Both not not during a Mass. Calvinism has nothing to do with it.
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Lormar
Guest
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Dee_S
Guest
:thumbsup:true:thumbsup:true & :thumbsup:true again.
I’m going to do some research on this topic, need to know the origin of this ‘liturgical dancing’ - will let you know if there’s anything worth knowing.
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Dee_S
Guest
I stick by my impression of Calvinistic influences, because there is, to me, a joy-lessness or even a complete forgetfulness of ‘joy’ as a fundamental Christian concept.WOW!
Since we were discussing an event, liturgical dancing, that took place within the context of a Mass, in particular the concluding Mass of the Los Angeles Cogress, I can only infer from your post that my old friend Saint Teresa would take off her shoes, pick up a tambourine, sing and start to dance during the sacrifice of the Mass.
i somehow doubt that she did that, but if you could point me to some document where it states categorically that she did so, i will accept it.
What she did outside of the structure of the Mass really has no place in this discussion as we were speaking solely about an event that occured during a Mass. Hey she could turn cartwheels and dance and blow trumpets and drink wine outside of the Mass. Thats fine.
As for David, different faith, differnt circumstances and not in the context of ritual worship.
Both not not during a Mass. Calvinism has nothing to do with it.
For example - most Catholics (even the most ‘pious’) of my experience, do not realise that Sunday’s are Feast Days…even if they fall in Lent. Also that on Feast Days that fall on a Friday one cannot treat it like a normal friday and insist of abstaining from meat.(a friend **refused **to attend a barbeque on the feast of Mother of God Jan 1, because it was a friday, and he wanted no part of our celebration)
“St. Luke attests that the disciples, who had received the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit at the time of the ascension, “returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and they were continually in the Temple praising God” (Lk 24:52-53)”
What form did this praising take?
Of course anyone would agree that inappropriate costume, movements etc are disgraceful in the context of a Mass or out for that matter. What I am really aiming at is where this originated and also is any expression of joyfulness besides singing taboo at Mass
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Faithdancer
Guest
I will be interested to see what you come up with, Dee. It will be thoroughly researched, that’s for sure!
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godisgood77
Guest
We should remind everyone that the word orthodox, by definition, means conforming to what is accepted as right or true… Seems like one of the most misused words in this forum.
The Church’s teaching is what drives orthodoxy.
Plainly. SSPX is not in communion with the Church and therefore it’s schismatic positions are not orthodox. This is black and white. It is not subjective…it is an objective truth.
Let’s continue to hope and pray that they come in to obedience of Holy Mother Church…
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