Can you cite some examples of what “schismatic positions” that the SSPX holds that are not orthodox? They do not have full jurisdiction, and I pray for full conversion with Rome as well, but to say they are unorthodox seems a stretch.
We all have our scriptures. While you are dancing down the aisle, I can assuage my horror from a bottle of Maker’s Mark. After all, there can’t be anything wrong with bringing liquor to Mass; it is right there in the bible.
This position goes, I think, a bit too far in the ultramontanist direction. I don’t think the pope’s opinions are all automatically orthodox, and I know of no dogma of the Church which suggests such. Our last two popes have had many opinions and said and done many things, and so far as I know none of their comments have been unanimously viewed as having been protected by any charism of infallibility. And even if a few official writings might have been, that still leaves out the rest of the thirty or so years. That means that throughout the many long years of their reigns their respective orthodoxy has had no greater guarantee than has yours. We really should be careful about how far we try to extend papal prerogatives or protections. Otherwise we risk turning the Church and the faith on its head.
I will be interested to see what you come up with, Dee. It will be thoroughly researched, that’s for sure!
Hi, you’re right. Just a brief look and I came up with this: "Here dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure."
"For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations."
"Neither can acceptance be had of the proposal to introduce into the liturgy the so-called artistic ballet[2] because there would be presentation here also of a spectacle at which one would assist, while in the liturgy one of the norms from which one cannot prescind is that of participation."
"Therefore, there is a great difference in cultures: what is well received in one culture cannot be taken on by another culture...The traditional reserve of the seriousness of religious worship, and of the Latin worship in particular, must never be forgotten." Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God -- what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That's not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that. Don't misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: "you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don't dance?"
A moment -- we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]
Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it's all right.
But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap -- don't you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap -- there is something wrong -- immediately. When they clap -- a dance is done and they clap.
Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.
I saw in one place -- I will not tell you where -- where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it -- they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]
Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it.
Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny -- is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out!
I soooo totally agree.May God have mercy on us and help us. Let us pray for the regularization of the SSPX.
Absolutely!
Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?
There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.
The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.
Yet the dancing remains an integral part of the concluding Mass of the LA Congress and has been there for many years.Code:Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God -- what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That's not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.
So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.
If people want to dance, they know where to go.Code:Don't misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: "you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don't dance?" A moment -- we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter] Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it's all right. But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap -- don't you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap -- there is something wrong -- immediately. When they clap -- a dance is done and they clap. Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall. I saw in one place -- I will not tell you where -- where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it -- they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter] Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it. Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny -- is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out!
adoremus.org/1003Arinze.html
That’s all folks!
[
And yet the dancing remains in full force at the closing Mass of the LA Congress and has been there for a long long time, and trust me it is a whole lot more than swaying from side to side during the bringing of the gifts..](http://www.adoremus.org/1003Arinze.html)
Because Progressives always quote a combination of Saints, the Pope and the Bible, like I did and especially Dee S did.
:bowdown:O Great & Bearded One…*…
Except King David’s dancing was liturgical (i.e., relevant to our subject): it was literally a formal and public celebration and praise of God in thanksgiving for all his benefits. That’s liturgy.We all have our scriptures. While you are dancing down the aisle, I can assuage my horror from a bottle of Maker’s Mark. After all, there can’t be anything wrong with bringing liquor to Mass; it is right there in the bible.
:yup:that it is…:curtsey:
You have missed that one wide. It may have been a lot of things, but it was quite literally not a celebration of the Mass. It was also in no way analogous to such. If you had found a verse about dancing in the Holy of Holies during Yom Kippur you would at least be closer, but it would still not dictate what we do during the Mass. Therefore, at the end of the day, my bible verse was just as relevant as yours.
Dee S;10404762 said:
Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?You should be careful: those Romans are very good at choosing their words.Code:There has never been a document **from our Congregation** for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1674 Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church’s sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, religious dances, the rosary, medals,180 etc.
No, I’m not missing anything.
And yet we have no indication he actually danced there. But, as I already stated, it doesn’t matter either way. What he did was not analogous for the Mass. The Mass is the Mass, and nothing else. It has nothing to do with what David did. There are many liturgical acts, and what is okay in one is not okay in the Mass.No, I’m not missing anything.
What King David was doing was the very definition of liturgy : he was formally and publicly worshipping God in gratitude of his works and benefits - in fact, leading the whole people as their King, and thus symbolizing them all - in the very presence of God. God seems to have thought David’s dancing was pretty nifty. Michal did not. He was dancing “with all his might” before “the ark of the Lord”. Where do you think the ark of the Lord ended up?
Ark of the Covenant
judaism.about.com › … › Jewish Days of Mourning › Temple
The Ark of the Covenant was kept in a special chamber within the Temple called the Holy of Holies (Kodesh Kodashim). No one was permitted to enter the Holy …
The Holy of Holies was for the Ark of the Covenant. THAT’S what made it so uber-holy: so holy, in fact, we had to call it holy twice!