SSPX Update - Redux

[JReducation]

Are you talking about Jean-Marie Lustiger? Paris, right?

Yessss, Cardinal Lustiger, a very saintly man. I remember reading something about the dedication of a monument of some kind to the victims of the Shoah from a certain town. He was reading the names, when he got to a certain woman’s name, he stopped, wiped his eyes and said, “My mama.” He lost his mother at the hands of the Nazis.

He was another Catholic Jew or Hebrew Catholic, whichever way you want to call us, who came to Catholicism, not through anyone preaching to him, but through observance of charity. Nothing impresses a Jewish person of faith more than charity, mysticism and joy.

One must remember that not all Jews are people of faith. Judaism is a faith while Jewry is an ethnic group.

 

[severus68]

Catholics have a responsibility to learn and grow in THE Faith, not practice “their” own faith or personally constructed version of Catholicism lest they become lukewarm or fall into error. This is an objective undertaking. The second sentence does not follow the first. Nobody is condemning those who have not read the Vatican II documents and this has nothing to do with those who wish to make the effort to deepen their understanding and appreciation of the Faith by delving into the second Vatican Council, it’s documents an it’s teachings, neither of which are insignificant. This is a discussion forum after all. IMHO and with all due respect, it’s important to remember that, unless the Pope joins our discussions, no one speaks infallibly with the authority of the Church on these forums, be they religious, ordained, lay or otherwise.

Sorry, was I not clear? One does not have to read tons of documents to live one’s Faith. How many Catholics in the world are even in a position to read such documents? They trust their priests and they trust the Pope. They are taught and love their religion and God. This may be of great importance to you but in the scheme of things, it is of little importance.

I was not saying anyone was speaking infallibly. I was making clear my respect for Br JR and what he says.

 

[Lormar]

First of all, I object to their meeting in Vienna, Va. I’m from Manassas, VA, not too far from Vienna. The last thing that Catholics there need is this complication. The Arlington Diocese is still one of the havens of Catholicism in this country. It’s people are very good and very orthodox Catholics. The presence of this group would confuse them very much.

The citation that said that Bishop Williamson may ordain Fr. Pfeiffer as bishop explains something that I had not understood. A few weeks ago, Archbishop Mueller publicly said, “Bishop Williamson is no longer Catholic.”

I thought those were harsh words and waited for a clarification from the Vatican; but it never came. Which told me that the Holy Father and the other dicastries must agree with this assessment. Then I went back to the interview with the Holy Father, Light of the World, and read where the Holy Father said, “Bishop Williamson has never lived in the larger Church. In a sense, he has never been fully Catholic.” I thought that Archbishop Mueller could be paraphrasing the Holy Father.

Given this information, maybe there is more to this, which the Holy See knows about and the rest of the world is just finding out in pieces here and there. We’ll just have pray, wait and see.

Having said all this, I always like to read the comments that people write on these pages. I found the tone of hostility and the words of hatred toward the Holy Father, Archbishop Mueller and the Vatican to be very sad. No matter how many mistakes the Vatican may make, which have been many over 2,000 years, a holy Catholic does not express himself the way that these folks express themselves.

I have heard the old argument that one has to be patient and understand that they are frustrated. I’m sorry, but there were other people in our Catholic history who were frustrated as well during times of challenge: the Fathers of the Church, St. Francis, St. Dominic, St. Bernard, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Catherine of Siena, Bl. Mother Teresa, Bl. John Paul II, Bl. John XXIII, St. Pius X, and the list can go on. All of these holy men and women dealt with challenges inside and outside the Church. They never spoke rudely or without restraint against anyone.

I believe that we have a generation of codependent people. This morning, I was standing outside after mass as I do every Sunday. One of our Secular Franciscans and his children were coming out of the church. I greeted them. The oldest, a 16 year old, just kept walking. I called out after her, “GOOD MORNING!” She did not acknowledge my greeting. Her father quickly chimed in, “She’s tired.”

I just smiled and nodded. But I’m not buying it. Tired, in a bad mood, unhappy with something, frustrated with something else, gout or anything short of labor pains, does not justify rudeness. I’ll give women in labor a pass.

These folks who posted that Archbishop Mueller is a heretic and that the Vatican is in schism are no in labor. I don’t give them a pass. The hierarchy has the right to be treated and spoken about respectfully. Christ has earned that right for the Church.

 

[PaulinVA]

First of all, I object to their meeting in Vienna, Va. I’m from Manassas, VA, not too far from Vienna. The last thing that Catholics there need is this complication. The Arlington Diocese is still one of the havens of Catholicism in this country. It’s people are very good and very orthodox Catholics. The presence of this group would confuse them very much.

I did a little digging, and there is a “breakaway” chapel on Route 7 that has ties to the SSPX. I would imagine that is where they would meet. It’s been there for a while, so I’m not sure that it would have an immediate impact if something further happened.

 

[JReducation]

I did a little digging, and there is a “breakaway” chapel on Route 7 that has ties to the SSPX. I would imagine that is where they would meet. It’s been there for a while, so I’m not sure that it would have an immediate impact if something further happened.

On Leesberg Pike near Tyson’s Corner?

That’s Vienna over there?

Why is it that they seem to find the middle class and wealthy neighborhoods to establish themselves. Why not go to Central VA, where there is poverty and Catholicism is not well known? Vienna is predominantly Catholic and Jewish. It’s median income is about $90K per household.

I an think of at least five parishes within two miles of each other in that area. All of them have a full house on Sundays. I was stationed in Falls Church for a few years.

Unless someone is intend on saving those folks from the Conciliar Church.

Oh, how that term bothers me. :sad_yes:

 

[LightBound]

On Leesberg Pike near Tyson’s Corner?

That’s Vienna over there?

Why is it that they seem to find the middle class and wealthy neighborhoods to establish themselves. Why not go to Central VA, where there is poverty and Catholicism is not well known? Vienna is predominantly Catholic and Jewish. It’s median income is about $90K per household.

I an think of at least five parishes within two miles of each other in that area. All of them have a full house on Sundays. I was stationed in Falls Church for a few years.

Unless someone is intend on saving those folks from the Conciliar Church.

Oh, how that term bothers me. :sad_yes:

I know this will come across as uncharitable and I’m sure I’ll get flamed by some for stating it, but they need financial backing and support to keep going and an upper class area with money is a good place to set up shop. That’s where you’ll find most of the Protestant megachurches, too.

 

[PaulinVA]

On Leesberg Pike near Tyson’s Corner?

That’s Vienna over there?

I think it’s Vienna up to Route 7, and then Great Falls on the other side of Route 7.

Why is it that they seem to find the middle class and wealthy neighborhoods to establish themselves. Why not go to Central VA, where there is poverty and Catholicism is not well known? Vienna is predominantly Catholic and Jewish. It’s median income is about $90K per household.

I think because people are used to commutes to get to work, so a commute to get to Mass isn’t a big deal. They apparently are in an older church building - maybe it’s what they could find.

I an think of at least five parishes within two miles of each other in that area. All of them have a full house on Sundays. I was stationed in Falls Church for a few years.

There are three parishes within a few miles of my house, each with more than 3500 families. It’s a great place to live, except for all the people they let move here after I moved in…

 

[YoungTradCath]

On Leesberg Pike near Tyson’s Corner?

That’s Vienna over there?

Why is it that they seem to find the middle class and wealthy neighborhoods to establish themselves. Why not go to Central VA, where there is poverty and Catholicism is not well known? Vienna is predominantly Catholic and Jewish. It’s median income is about $90K per household.

I an think of at least five parishes within two miles of each other in that area. All of them have a full house on Sundays. I was stationed in Falls Church for a few years.

Unless someone is intend on saving those folks from the Conciliar Church.

Oh, how that term bothers me. :sad_yes:

Probably because they need money. They are building a new seminary.

 

[Aramis]

On Leesberg Pike near Tyson’s Corner?

That’s Vienna over there?

Why is it that they seem to find the middle class and wealthy neighborhoods to establish themselves. Why not go to Central VA, where there is poverty and Catholicism is not well known? Vienna is predominantly Catholic and Jewish. It’s median income is about $90K per household.

I an think of at least five parishes within two miles of each other in that area. All of them have a full house on Sundays. I was stationed in Falls Church for a few years.

Unless someone is intend on saving those folks from the Conciliar Church.

Oh, how that term bothers me. :sad_yes:

If one feels that the conciliar church is in error, then one should be working to save souls from the Conciliar church.

If one feels that a call to Christ, even if imperfect, is more important than orthodoxis, then one should be focused upon non-christians.

If one feels that orthodoxis is more important than the call to christ, then one should focus on those misguided by those not orthodox.

If one believes there is no salvation outside the church, then should focus on getting people into the church - the problem being where one draws the line between orthodox enough and not orthodox enough.

Putting parishes in heavily Conciliar Church areas, it tends to imply that the sponsoring body rejects the Conciliar Church as “orthodox enough for salvation” - which is entirely consonant with accepting baptism of desire and rejecting the orthodoxis of the Conciliar Church.

Which would be consistent with accepting the councils prior to V II but not V II.

And, Good Friar, Conciliar Church is exactly what the Church has always been - and the Orthodox and Catholic Churches still are, despite their schism from each other. Councils are how we, as Catholics, define orthodoxis and orthopraxis. The way it’s used today implies it to be a flaw - but it’s a part of the fabric of the Church.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I did a little digging, and there is a “breakaway” chapel on Route 7 that has ties to the SSPX. I would imagine that is where they would meet. It’s been there for a while, so I’m not sure that it would have an immediate impact if something further happened.

Yes, I was quite shocked to find that they have been there for awhile. We went to St Luke’s on Rt 7 a long time ago. I had never of them being there. In fact didn’t think we had any SSPX or ‘independent’ churches in this area. And who could forget a name like Ringrose???

 

[JReducation]

There are three parishes within a few miles of my house, each with more than 3500 families. It’s a great place to live, except for all the people they let move here after I moved in…

Did you want the whole county for yourself? Piggy piggy piggy.

If one feels that the conciliar church is in error, then one should be working to save souls from the Conciliar church.

If one feels that a call to Christ, even if imperfect, is more important than orthodoxis, then one should be focused upon non-christians.

If one feels that orthodoxis is more important than the call to christ, then one should focus on those misguided by those not orthodox.

If one believes there is no salvation outside the church, then should focus on getting people into the church - the problem being where one draws the line between orthodox enough and not orthodox enough.

Putting parishes in heavily Conciliar Church areas, it tends to imply that the sponsoring body rejects the Conciliar Church as “orthodox enough for salvation” - which is entirely consonant with accepting baptism of desire and rejecting the orthodoxis of the Conciliar Church.

Which would be consistent with accepting the councils prior to V II but not V II.

And, Good Friar, Conciliar Church is exactly what the Church has always been - and the Orthodox and Catholic Churches still are, despite their schism from each other. Councils are how we, as Catholics, define orthodoxis and orthopraxis. The way it’s used today implies it to be a flaw - but it’s a part of the fabric of the Church.

I am very familiar with the fact that we are a Church of Councils. But a “conciliar church” is not theological language. It’s really condescending language. That’s why it bothers me.

I completely see where you’re coming from. If they believe that the mainstream Church is not Catholic enough and there are five parishes with thousands of families in an area less than 25 sq. miles and at least 15 priests, several groups of sisters and the Christian Brothers, four Catholic elementary schools and one Catholic high school, all full, then I guess one would want to convert these folks.

This particular group sounds more hard-line than the main body of the SSPX. This is beginning to sound like a recipe for disaster.

Catholics in that area are very involved in their parishes and schools. I know one parish that raised $5 million to build a new gymnasium for its school. I know of one Catholic school that has eight sisters teaching there. The diocesan clergy of Arlington diocese is one of the best educated in the country. They have so many that the religious left the diocese, because we were surplus. I believe that there is one Franciscan house and one Trappist house left. Bishop Laverde is awesome.

If they get too loud, there are going to be real conflicts with the local Catholics and the local Jews. :slapfight:

It’s an area where Catholics and Jews have lived in peace for a very long time. My parents went to Northern VA, because there were Catholics who protected the Jews from discrimination. I was one of those Jewish kids who was taken under the wing of the Catholics. I can’t see the Catholics and the Jews putting up with a group that sounds antisemitic, even if they don’t mean to be. They certainly will not put up with a group that is anti women, in an area where the female population is made up of very well educated women. God save VA from such a conflict.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I am very familiar with the fact that we are a Church of Councils. But a “conciliar church” is not theological language. It’s really condescending language. That’s why it bothers me.

I agree, but not because it’s condescending, because it’s divisive. Really, this is the issue we are dealing with in terms of the SSPX: divisiveness. It’s so anti-Jesus, so leading away from Oneness. It’s the trap-stick that leads to sin, to scandal, to all the things we need to not engage in.

One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. One is first. And those are our names. It’s everything we mean and are and need to be.

Whatever the issues - whatever the issues - One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic comes first.

IMO, it really doesn’t matter what the issues are: the wrongness is the separation, the ensuing scandal and divisiveness.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Yes, I was quite shocked to find that they have been there for awhile. We went to St Luke’s on Rt 7 a long time ago. I had never of them being there. In fact didn’t think we had any SSPX or ‘independent’ churches in this area. And who could forget a name like Ringrose???

Correction: St Luke’s is on Georgetown Pike. I have some grasp of basic geography and roads around here!

 

[Lormar]

I agree, but not because it’s condescending, because it’s divisive. Really, this is the issue we are dealing with in terms of the SSPX: divisiveness. It’s so anti-Jesus, so leading away from Oneness. It’s the trap-stick that leads to sin, to scandal, to all the things we need to not engage in.

One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. One is first. And those are our names. It’s everything we mean and are and need to be.

Whatever the issues - whatever the issues - One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic comes first.

IMO, it really doesn’t matter what the issues are: the wrongness is the separation, the ensuing scandal and divisiveness.

Julia, what you have written is very true and was brought to Archbishop Lefebvre’s attention many times, especially in the seventies.

 

[Aramis]

I agree, but not because it’s condescending, because it’s divisive. Really, this is the issue we are dealing with in terms of the SSPX: divisiveness. It’s so anti-Jesus, so leading away from Oneness. It’s the trap-stick that leads to sin, to scandal, to all the things we need to not engage in.

One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. One is first. And those are our names. It’s everything we mean and are and need to be.

Whatever the issues - whatever the issues - One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic comes first.

IMO, it really doesn’t matter what the issues are: the wrongness is the separation, the ensuing scandal and divisiveness.

I agree whole heartedly that the use is divisive. The term is historically accurate as a descriptive term, though.

And, given the rejection of the most recent council by the mainstream SSPX, it’s a decent enough discriminant in opposition to the SSPX. It’s also the term the SSPX uses to describe us, and it’s not inaccurate, so we should not shy away from the term. We don’t need to embrace it wholeheartedly, but it’s not a term that we should reject.

 

[pnewton]

The SSPX has no issues with Trent, Nicea, Constantinople, Latern I-IV, etc. No, there is only one council they refer to when they use the term “concilliar church.” It is a tool of propaganda to designed to designate the Catholic Church today in discontinuity with the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II. It is an insult. It chills my blood. I do not think anyone who uses this term thus will ever be reconcilled until they stop playing at rhetoric and deal with the actual issues without scoring propaganda points.

 

[Moore11]

I’m not the Pope. He is one of the wisest men on earth. He is skilled at diplomacy, theology, and holiness. I am none of those.
But…
If I were. I’d send a couple Swiss Guards out on a plane to physically detain Williamson Fellay and the other two. Flexing the authority of the Vicar of Christ as well as the state of the Vatican. I would also do it this way to express how important it is that they know that I am the POPE, I dictate to them, not them to me. I would bring them to Rome, put on my most regal Papal outfit, and starting with Williamson I would tell him flat out that he is to never ordain a Bishop. He must come into the Church immediately and he will then retire. Immediately. He will be appointed to some position and taken care of but he would be effectively silenced. I would then turn to Fellay and express sympathy at his position and understand that he is confused and frustrated. I would tell him and the other Bishops that no matter what Williamson does, this is the end of the line for this dance as well. I would offer them a personal prelature and I would watch them sign any document I wanted. I would remind them of their oath of loyalty to me and to the Church.

For the price of jet fuel this could be done. While it may not fix it. It just might and you lose nothing.

It isn’t logical, it is not intellectual or mature but it is my little fantasy in my head.

 

[Aramis]

The SSPX has no issues with Trent, Nicea, Constantinople, Latern I-IV, etc. No, there is only one council they refer to when they use the term “concilliar church.” It is a tool of propaganda to designed to designate the Catholic Church today in discontinuity with the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II. It is an insult. It chills my blood. I do not think anyone who uses this term thus will ever be reconcilled until they stop playing at rhetoric and deal with the actual issues without scoring propaganda points.

I use the term without hesitation, but I think the SSPX clearly exhibit a schismatic pattern of behavior. Then again, I’m heavily easternized, so the term Conciliar Church has more positive resonance for me. Further, many derrogations have lost their power when adopted as self-references by the “victim” - Yankee, Swab Jockey, Squid, Jarhead, Leatherneck, grunt, doughboy, nerd, geek, Jacobite (in the scots context, and also in the context of the Malabar Orthodox, who self identify as Jacobites for clarity since their last schism).

The SSPX district administration resembles nothing so much as diocesan deaneries. They have built a network of parishes without proper invitation by the local ordinaries. They have ordained priests for excommunicated groups. They have continued to ordain clerics without always securing the requisite permissions from the individuals’ ordinaries’. They have sponsored at least three religious communities without proper permissions.

The only thing they need to be a parallel church is to claim ordinary jurisdiction. Once they do that, all their sacraments become valid - but they also exit the church.

 

[Walking_Home]

I use the term without hesitation, but I think the SSPX clearly exhibit a schismatic pattern of behavior. Then again, I’m heavily easternized, so the term Conciliar Church has more positive resonance for me. Further, many derrogations have lost their power when adopted as self-references by the “victim” - Yankee, Swab Jockey, Squid, Jarhead, Leatherneck, grunt, doughboy, nerd, geek, Jacobite (in the scots context, and also in the context of the Malabar Orthodox, who self identify as Jacobites for clarity since their last schism).

The SSPX district administration resembles nothing so much as diocesan deaneries. They have built a network of parishes without proper invitation by the local ordinaries. They have ordained priests for excommunicated groups. They have continued to ordain clerics without always securing the requisite permissions from the individuals’ ordinaries’. They have sponsored at least three religious communities without proper permissions.

The only thing they need to be a parallel church is to claim ordinary jurisdiction. Once they do that, all their sacraments become valid - but they also exit the church.

---

By the actions of the SSPX – ordaining priests – setting up chapels --offering the Mass–Sacraments --etc. – all without the consent of the resident Bishops and Rome – are they not taking onto themselves ordinary jurisdiction?

 

[fordhamstudent]

Schisms usually are bred of two types: those who think the Church has gone too far and of those who think the Church has not gone far enough. The problem with the Society is once a person or Society becomes the arbiter of what is orthodox and truly Catholic then everyone else ends up not being Catholic enough–even the Pope. It doesn’t take a skilled academic to see the problems with doing that. Eventually, what happens, and which happened to the independent chapels and Societies who assert the present Pontiff is a usurper, is they breed schisms amongst each other to the point of negation. The sheer and certain course in this matter is the golden mean and communion with the Pope–even though we in our wisdom deem to know better