SSPX Update - Redux

  • Thread starter Thread starter Melchior_1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m not the Pope. He is one of the wisest men on earth. He is skilled at diplomacy, theology, and holiness. I am none of those.
But…
If I were. I’d send a couple Swiss Guards out on a plane to physically detain Williamson Fellay and the other two. Flexing the authority of the Vicar of Christ as well as the state of the Vatican. I would also do it this way to express how important it is that they know that I am the POPE, I dictate to them, not them to me. I would bring them to Rome, put on my most regal Papal outfit, and starting with Williamson I would tell him flat out that he is to never ordain a Bishop. He must come into the Church immediately and he will then retire. Immediately. He will be appointed to some position and taken care of but he would be effectively silenced. I would then turn to Fellay and express sympathy at his position and understand that he is confused and frustrated. I would tell him and the other Bishops that no matter what Williamson does, this is the end of the line for this dance as well. I would offer them a personal prelature and I would watch them sign any document I wanted. I would remind them of their oath of loyalty to me and to the Church.

For the price of jet fuel this could be done. While it may not fix it. It just might and you lose nothing.

It isn’t logical, it is not intellectual or mature but it is my little fantasy in my head.😉
You don’t have to stop there. Get the Anglicans, Lutherans and Orthodox next!😃
 
I’m not the Pope. He is one of the wisest men on earth. He is skilled at diplomacy, theology, and holiness. I am none of those.
But…
If I were. I’d send a couple Swiss Guards out on a plane to physically detain Williamson Fellay and the other two. Flexing the authority of the Vicar of Christ as well as the state of the Vatican. I would also do it this way to express how important it is that they know that I am the POPE, I dictate to them, not them to me. I would bring them to Rome, put on my most regal Papal outfit, and starting with Williamson I would tell him flat out that he is to never ordain a Bishop. He must come into the Church immediately and he will then retire. Immediately. He will be appointed to some position and taken care of but he would be effectively silenced. I would then turn to Fellay and express sympathy at his position and understand that he is confused and frustrated. I would tell him and the other Bishops that no matter what Williamson does, this is the end of the line for this dance as well. I would offer them a personal prelature and I would watch them sign any document I wanted. I would remind them of their oath of loyalty to me and to the Church.

For the price of jet fuel this could be done. While it may not fix it. It just might and you lose nothing.

It isn’t logical, it is not intellectual or mature but it is my little fantasy in my head.😉
Get out of my dreams. I’ve had this dream on several occasions. It’s mine, all mine.
The SSPX district administration resembles nothing so much as diocesan deaneries. They have built a network of parishes without proper invitation by the local ordinaries. They have ordained priests for excommunicated groups. They have continued to ordain clerics without always securing the requisite permissions from the individuals’ ordinaries’. They have sponsored at least three religious communities without proper permissions.

The only thing they need to be a parallel church is to claim ordinary jurisdiction. Once they do that, all their sacraments become valid - but they also exit the church.
Let’s hope and pray that the Holy Spirit guides all involved and this can be averted. This would be tragic for the Church and for them.
 
I’m not the Pope. He is one of the wisest men on earth. He is skilled at diplomacy, theology, and holiness. I am none of those.
But…
If I were. I’d send a couple Swiss Guards out on a plane to physically detain Williamson Fellay and the other two. Flexing the authority of the Vicar of Christ as well as the state of the Vatican. I would also do it this way to express how important it is that they know that I am the POPE, I dictate to them, not them to me. I would bring them to Rome, put on my most regal Papal outfit, and starting with Williamson I would tell him flat out that he is to never ordain a Bishop. He must come into the Church immediately and he will then retire. Immediately. He will be appointed to some position and taken care of but he would be effectively silenced. I would then turn to Fellay and express sympathy at his position and understand that he is confused and frustrated. I would tell him and the other Bishops that no matter what Williamson does, this is the end of the line for this dance as well. I would offer them a personal prelature and I would watch them sign any document I wanted. I would remind them of their oath of loyalty to me and to the Church.

For the price of jet fuel this could be done. While it may not fix it. It just might and you lose nothing.

It isn’t logical, it is not intellectual or mature but it is my little fantasy in my head.😉
I thought the pope wasn’t supposed to use force to enforce doctrine. I thought he was to inform and persuade. I may be wrong but if I’m wrong please forgive me, I’m a convert. 😊
 
I thought the pope wasn’t supposed to use force to enforce doctrine. I thought he was to inform and persuade. I may be wrong but if I’m wrong please forgive me, I’m a convert. 😊
Not to enforce doctrine. That would be contrary to what Vatican II said on religious freedom. The pope can use force to impose discipline.

They’re lucky that they’re not Franciscan, Benedictine or Carmelite. In our respective rules, the founders wrote that we can imprison the rebel and if necessary beat him into submission, but not on matters of faith or morals. We can only imprison and beat on matters of discipline.

I don’t remember the last time that these statutes were used, but they’re in the rules. Benedict, Francis and Albert didn’t play games.
 
Not to enforce doctrine. That would be contrary to what Vatican II said on religious freedom. The pope can use force to impose discipline.

They’re lucky that they’re not Franciscan, Benedictine or Carmelite. In our respective rules, the founders wrote that we can imprison the rebel and if necessary beat him into submission, but not on matters of faith or morals. We can only imprison and beat on matters of discipline.

I don’t remember the last time that these statutes were used, but they’re in the rules. Benedict, Francis and Albert didn’t play games.
But if SSPX is not part of the catholic church, how can we enforce discipline?
 
But if SSPX is not part of the catholic church, how can we enforce discipline?
They are still part of the Catholic Church. Although, their bishops, priests, and religious are canonically irregular (effect of the disciplinary measures of the Church).
 
But if SSPX is not part of the catholic church, how can we enforce discipline?
The SSPX is part of the Catholic Church. It has no canonical status in the Catholic Church. Think of it this way. A person is employed by a company but it put on administrative leave for disciplinary reasons. During that time, the person continues to be an employee of the company. However, he has no voice in the company nor can he use any of the benefits until he complies with the company’s demands. That’s the status of the SSPX.

Of course, while you refuse to comply, you’re not in full communion with the Church. Communion depends on three areas: doctrine, governance, and discipline. The SSPX questions certain doctrinal positions of the Church concerning the place of Vatican II in Catholic tradition. It refuses to comply with Church government. It refuses to accept the Ordinary Form of the mass as valid, licit and just as holy as the Extraordinary Form.
 
The SSPX is part of the Catholic Church. It has no canonical status in the Catholic Church. Think of it this way. A person is employed by a company but it put on administrative leave for disciplinary reasons. During that time, the person continues to be an employee of the company. However, he has no voice in the company nor can he use any of the benefits until he complies with the company’s demands. That’s the status of the SSPX.

Of course, while you refuse to comply, you’re not in full communion with the Church. Communion depends on three areas: doctrine, governance, and discipline. The SSPX questions certain doctrinal positions of the Church concerning the place of Vatican II in Catholic tradition. It refuses to comply with Church government. It refuses to accept the Ordinary Form of the mass as valid, licit and just as holy as the Extraordinary Form.
There. Brother JR articulated it better than me. 👍
 

By the actions of the SSPX – ordaining priests – setting up chapels --offering the Mass–Sacraments --etc. – all without the consent of the resident Bishops and Rome – are they not taking onto themselves ordinary jurisdiction?
Not exactly. They are quite carefully avoiding those actions and titles that would assert status as an Ordinary in general…
  • They do not grant explicit faculties to hear confessions - they claim the church supplies “of necessity” and/or by assignment.
  • They don’t appoint parish pastors, but Chaplains. {1}
  • They don’t organize into deaneries nor dioceses, but into districts. {2}
  • They usually don’t claim the title “parish” for their facilities. “Shrine” or “Chapel” are the ones I’ve seen used. This does present a different set of competencies for the rectors. {3}
  • They don’t grant explicit faculties to perform weddings. They presume those come with being a chapel rector. {4}
  • They don’t deny the local bishop’s authority; they claim their status exempts them from it (by virtue of emergency jurisdiction). {5}
{1} A properly installed chaplain of an oratory/chapel of a society of apostolic life has some faculties as chaplain. Many of which are directly comparable to those of a Pastor. Many, but not all.

{2} a society’s regions or districts have much the same duty as a deanery - to administratively function in the ordinary’s stead for a region that the ordinary lacks the time or access to supervise adequately; the title is important, tho’, because some additional faculties are automatic to deans. Review of tribunal cases isn’t one of them - it’s a diocesan function - but one that’s been usurped by their districts.

{3} a chaplain of a proper society’s chapel has the right by the law itself to hear confessions from those entrusted to the care of that chapel, which, barring permissions from the local bishop, means only members of that society. But that appointment is a canonical one, and lacking canonical status, the assigned priests are not canonically the chaplains. Further, without the local bishop’s permission, even when canonically recognized, the permission inherent is limited to those for whom the chapel is intended.

{4} if they were canonical chaplains and the chapels had the bishop’s permission to serve as a personal parish, this would be true.

{5} Noting that their canonical status is officially “None” they have no status to exempt them. If they were properly constituted as a diocesan, metropolitan, patriarchal, or papal right society of apostolic life, then they would, indeed, be as exempt as Br. JR is… but they were canonically suppressed well before any of the real hubbub. 1975 or so. And it’s clear from HH Benedict XVI that they lack any canonical status. That would presumably include as a Pia Unio (which is a term no longer used) or as a society of apostolic life…
They are still part of the Catholic Church. Although, their bishops, priests, and religious are canonically irregular (effect of the disciplinary measures of the Church).
And, until they move one way or the other, that’s how they’ll stay.
Either they will fall before Rome or fall away from Rome. They are on a nasty canonical precipice.
 

By the actions of the SSPX – ordaining priests – setting up chapels --offering the Mass–Sacraments --etc. – all without the consent of the resident Bishops and Rome – are they not taking onto themselves ordinary jurisdiction?
I believe that the way the Church is handling it is to say they have a schismatic mentality and perform schismatic acts, but are not actually in schism.
 
The SSPX is part of the Catholic Church. It has no canonical status in the Catholic Church. Think of it this way. A person is employed by a company but it put on administrative leave for disciplinary reasons. During that time, the person continues to be an employee of the company. However, he has no voice in the company nor can he use any of the benefits until he complies with the company’s demands. That’s the status of the SSPX.

Of course, while you refuse to comply, you’re not in full communion with the Church. Communion depends on three areas: doctrine, governance, and discipline. The SSPX questions certain doctrinal positions of the Church concerning the place of Vatican II in Catholic tradition. It refuses to comply with Church government. It refuses to accept the Ordinary Form of the mass as valid, licit and just as holy as the Extraordinary Form.
Brother,

I have a sort of, side question. How did you become interested in the question of the SSPX? I suspect that the society doesn’t even pass the mind of the average priest or religious. The vast majority of Catholics have no idea what the SSPX is or have only the most vague notion of what it is. The only reason I know who/what they are is because of CAF.

Just curious.

Thanks and God Bless
 
Brother,

I have a sort of, side question. How did you become interested in the question of the SSPX? I suspect that the society doesn’t even pass the mind of the average priest or religious. The vast majority of Catholics have no idea what the SSPX is or have only the most vague notion of what it is. The only reason I know who/what they are is because of CAF.

Just curious.

Thanks and God Bless
I cannot answer for Brother and please excuse my response, but I can fexplain why for at least some of us who are interested in this subject. After Vatican II, there was a virtual tidal wave of Liturgical abuses and attempts at virtual wholescale change within the Church. It seemed that everything new was considered good and anything traditional was bad This affected all levels and some of the worst offenses apparently took place at various seminaries. In fact the SSPX was founded not to preserve the Traditional Mass but to run a conservative Seminary for those who wanted no part of what was being taught or perhaps more precisely the way things were being taught at European Seminaries at the time. The use and preservation of the Traditional Mass was a sideline.

However, after a while, the SSPX ran afoul of the local Bishops for various reasons, depending on which side you believe. This set the stage for their loss of canonical status within the Church whichoccurred sometime later.

Now at the same time, more than a few people had become incensed over what was going on in some of the Masses that were being celebrated, and since the faithful were told repeatedly that the Traditional Mass had been suppressed,abrogated as it were, independent chapels began popping up which offered the Traditional Mass. Most of these chapels were staffed by the graduates of the SSPX,seminary so almost by default the SSPX became the face of the Traditional Mass movement although that was never their original intent.

So many of us are interested in their situation and status because without them, the Traditional Mass more than likely would have disappeared,except in the few areas where some older Priests were still allowed to celebrate it. In essence without them it is highly unlikely we would have any Traditional Masses at all being celebrated these days.
 
Brother,

I have a sort of, side question. How did you become interested in the question of the SSPX? I suspect that the society doesn’t even pass the mind of the average priest or religious. The vast majority of Catholics have no idea what the SSPX is or have only the most vague notion of what it is. The only reason I know who/what they are is because of CAF.

Just curious.

Thanks and God Bless
Purely by accident. I was studying the lives and spirituality of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II and ran into the issues with the Lefebvrist movement. A few months later, an entire community of Franciscans were excommunicated, dismissed from the order for pledging allegiance to the Archbishop over St. Francis, which is a big no no. In his Testament, St. Francis wrote the the brothers owed obedience to their canonically elected superiors, to him, to the local bishop and to the pope. This he commanded and let those brothers who do not observe “my command suffer the eternal fires of hell.” There is a curse with his command. The Church has never abrogated it. It’s still in place. Few people want to risk wrestling with one of the most powerful saints in Church history.

I found all of this very interesting and my first thought was a simple question. Why would these people want to risk their souls fighting holy popes, holy religious founders, holy superiors? I started to read more books, pay attention to blogs and forums, etc.

I should just say, in case you don’t know it, that my doctorate is in Ascetical and Mystical Theology and my dissertation was on the reform movements of Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila. The spirituality that drives reform movements has always been of interest to me.

As a student of the spiritual life, the most important question when one looks at a phenomenon is, “Where is the Holy Spirit?” That question is followed by another question. “Is it the Holy Spirit speaking or is it the human element?” This is an important question, because when we hold on to what Popes 1, 2 and 3 said we have to remember that the Holy Spirit was speaking, but he could have been speaking to a particular time and situation and if that situation no longer exists, then we have to go back to the Holly Spirit and listen to what he has to say to our current situation.

Finally, Mystical Theology has proven that no spiritual master has ever denied obedience to Peter. There have been moments when the Masters have asked Peter for clarification and when they have proposed ideas to Peter that are more in keeping with the Gospel. However, the thought of walking away from Peter if he should disagree was the farthest thing from their mind.

One of the great mystics of Catholic history is St. Paul himself. As I say to people here all the time. The disagreement between Peter and Paul is overplayed in order to justify the traditionalist behavior. But if we follow Paul’s writings very closely, the writings of the Fathers who knew him and the Acts of the Apostles, Paul was very submissive to Peter. He approaches Peter with great energy and great respect. He would not have taken his people and walked away had Peter said “No to him.” He understood that difference between tradition and Tradition. Their dispute was not dogmatic. It was disciplinary. St. Clement of Rome drives this point home very strongly in his writings to the Church at Ephasus. He recalls Paul’s dealings with Peter and he alludes to Paul’s submissiveness to authority. He invokes Paul’s example for the Ephesians and demands that they submit to the Bishop of Rome.

That’s it in a nutshell. Spirituality is my thing and there is an undercurrent here that belongs in the sphere of Christian Spirituality that is not being discussed on blogs and forums, because most laymen and diocesan priests have no formal training in Christian Spirituality. They may have many practices and customs that are part of Christian spirituality. But they don’t have the tools to analyze these customs and they don’t have the tools to go deeper than to say, “We want adoration back and the common recitation of the Rosary.” The question is not whether these things are good or bad. They are good. The question is whether the request comes from the Holy Spirit or from the person. The way to tell the difference is to remember that the Holy Spirit will never contradict the Church and will guide Peter, not lead men to turn their backs on Peter.

I’m not too concerned about CITH, COTT, EF, OF, Rosary or Adoration. I’m interested in who is making the request? Is it man or is it the Holy Spirit? That’s the role of Spiritual Theology in the life of the Church.
 
As a student of the spiritual life, the most important question when one looks at a phenomenon is, “Where is the Holy Spirit?” That question is followed by another question. “Is it the Holy Spirit speaking or is it the human element?” This is an important question, because when we hold on to what Popes 1, 2 and 3 said we have to remember that the Holy Spirit was speaking, but he could have been speaking to a particular time and situation and if that situation no longer exists, then we have to go back to the Holly Spirit and listen to what he has to say to our current situation.
How can you tell where the Holy Spirit is and isn’t? And can someone be deceived thinking He is there when He isn’t?
 
Purely by accident. I was studying the lives and spirituality of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II and ran into the issues with the Lefebvrist movement. A few months later, an entire community of Franciscans were excommunicated, dismissed from the order for pledging allegiance to the Archbishop over St. Francis, which is a big no no. In his Testament, St. Francis wrote the the brothers owed obedience to their canonically elected superiors, to him, to the local bishop and to the pope. This he commanded and let those brothers who do not observe “my command suffer the eternal fires of hell.” There is a curse with his command. The Church has never abrogated it. It’s still in place. Few people want to risk wrestling with one of the most powerful saints in Church history.

I found all of this very interesting and my first thought was a simple question. Why would these people want to risk their souls fighting holy popes, holy religious founders, holy superiors? I started to read more books, pay attention to blogs and forums, etc.

I should just say, in case you don’t know it, that my doctorate is in Ascetical and Mystical Theology and my dissertation was on the reform movements of Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila. The spirituality that drives reform movements has always been of interest to me.

As a student of the spiritual life, the most important question when one looks at a phenomenon is, “Where is the Holy Spirit?” That question is followed by another question. “Is it the Holy Spirit speaking or is it the human element?” This is an important question, because when we hold on to what Popes 1, 2 and 3 said we have to remember that the Holy Spirit was speaking, but he could have been speaking to a particular time and situation and if that situation no longer exists, then we have to go back to the Holly Spirit and listen to what he has to say to our current situation.

Finally, Mystical Theology has proven that no spiritual master has ever denied obedience to Peter. There have been moments when the Masters have asked Peter for clarification and when they have proposed ideas to Peter that are more in keeping with the Gospel. However, the thought of walking away from Peter if he should disagree was the farthest thing from their mind.

One of the great mystics of Catholic history is St. Paul himself. As I say to people here all the time. The disagreement between Peter and Paul is overplayed in order to justify the traditionalist behavior. But if we follow Paul’s writings very closely, the writings of the Fathers who knew him and the Acts of the Apostles, Paul was very submissive to Peter. He approaches Peter with great energy and great respect. He would not have taken his people and walked away had Peter said “No to him.” He understood that difference between tradition and Tradition. Their dispute was not dogmatic. It was disciplinary. St. Clement of Rome drives this point home very strongly in his writings to the Church at Ephasus. He recalls Paul’s dealings with Peter and he alludes to Paul’s submissiveness to authority. He invokes Paul’s example for the Ephesians and demands that they submit to the Bishop of Rome.

That’s it in a nutshell. Spirituality is my thing and there is an undercurrent here that belongs in the sphere of Christian Spirituality that is not being discussed on blogs and forums, because most laymen and diocesan priests have no formal training in Christian Spirituality. They may have many practices and customs that are part of Christian spirituality. But they don’t have the tools to analyze these customs and they don’t have the tools to go deeper than to say, “We want adoration back and the common recitation of the Rosary.” The question is not whether these things are good or bad. They are good. The question is whether the request comes from the Holy Spirit or from the person. The way to tell the difference is to remember that the Holy Spirit will never contradict the Church and will guide Peter, not lead men to turn their backs on Peter.

I’m not too concerned about CITH, COTT, EF, OF, Rosary or Adoration. I’m interested in who is making the request? Is it man or is it the Holy Spirit? That’s the role of Spiritual Theology in the life of the Church.
Great!

Thanks Brother- I do agree that the spiritual aspects of the SSPX question are not being appreciated. Reading your post brings the “hidden” aspect of the situation more into focus.

Thanks and God Bless.
 
How can you tell where the Holy Spirit is and isn’t? And can someone be deceived thinking He is there when He isn’t?
Br JR is going to give a great answer to this, but I’ll make two references from Scripture: You know the tree by it’s fruit and the Devil disguised as an angel of Light. To me, the question is how these references relate to the SSPX?
 
I cannot answer for Brother and please excuse my response, but I can fexplain why for at least some of us who are interested in this subject. After Vatican II, there was a virtual tidal wave of Liturgical abuses and attempts at virtual wholescale change within the Church. It seemed that everything new was considered good and anything traditional was bad This affected all levels and some of the worst offenses apparently took place at various seminaries. In fact the SSPX was founded not to preserve the Traditional Mass but to run a conservative Seminary for those who wanted no part of what was being taught or perhaps more precisely the way things were being taught at European Seminaries at the time. The use and preservation of the Traditional Mass was a sideline.

However, after a while, the SSPX ran afoul of the local Bishops for various reasons, depending on which side you believe. This set the stage for their loss of canonical status within the Church whichoccurred sometime later.

Now at the same time, more than a few people had become incensed over what was going on in some of the Masses that were being celebrated, and since the faithful were told repeatedly that the Traditional Mass had been suppressed,abrogated as it were, independent chapels began popping up which offered the Traditional Mass. Most of these chapels were staffed by the graduates of the SSPX,seminary so almost by default the SSPX became the face of the Traditional Mass movement although that was never their original intent.

So many of us are interested in their situation and status because without them, the Traditional Mass more than likely would have disappeared,except in the few areas where some older Priests were still allowed to celebrate it. In essence without them it is highly unlikely we would have any Traditional Masses at all being celebrated these days.
The thing is I for one never knew of the existence of the SSPX before reading about it on CAF. When I speak to others about it, they have no idea what I am talking about. We have always had good, reverent priests, no issue with our masses and that I would think is the norm.
A point - why does the SSPX have to set up chapels all over the world without the permission of bishops? If it was really needed and wanted, Catholic churches would be half empty with hordes rushing to attend their chapels and follow them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top