SSPX Update - Redux

[JReducation]

I have mentioned this to others in the past, the usual response is “we don’t take a vow of obedience, so it doesn’t apply to us”.

Those folks should read the Letter to the Corinthians from St. Clement of Rome where is addresses the entire Church of Corinth, laity and clergy. He calls it to submission. He states that the Church is not a place where people can do what they like. Each one must exercise his role according to his vocation. He then clearly states the authority that comes with Apostolic Succession. The Holy See must be obeyed, because it is the will of God.

 

[Lormar]

There is a danger to place our allegiance and fidelity in the wrong place. Unless there is sin involved, our allegiance and fidelity must always be with the current Magisterium. That too is part of tradition. The Church has always been very submissive to the pope of the time, except the anti-popes, who obviously were not popes. Even when some of these popes were rascals, unless commanded to sin, the faithful (everyone) submitted.

I’ve mentioned this many times to some of them but it goes in one ear and out the other. And I have to admit that there are days when I wonder if I’m the wrong one and they are right - especially when they start with the St. Athanasius stuff.

 

[numealinesimpet]

(cont’d -3) Continuing the documentary evidence…

**Clement VII **
In the 16th century, many churchmen tried to make a mixture of Renaissance Paganism and Church liturgy and teaching. Consequently, they proposed to celebrate the Catholic feasts based on classical odes taken from pagan Antiquity. It was a question of “adaptation” of the liturgical texts to the needs of the epoch…

In the hymns reformed by humanist Cardinal Zacharias Ferreti, the Virgin Mary was called “felix dea, deorum maxima, nympha candidissima” [o happy goddess, o greatest among the gods, o most beautiful nymph]. Personages from pagan mythology such as Bacchus and Venus were also introduced into the liturgy.

Even though these were profanations of sacred matters that resulted from the Renaissance delirium, the consequence of those “experiments” was approved by Clement VII in a Brief issued on December 11, 1525. In this document, after enthusiastic praise for the innovations, the Pope wrote these words:

“By our own determination and secure knowledge, We concede and command with apostolic authority by the content of these letters, that all the faithful, including the priests, can use these hymns, even in the Divine Offices.”

It is understandable that St. Pius V, when he brought to a close the abuses that had infiltrated the celebration of the Holy Mass and the liturgical offices, did not refer to that unprecedented papal document of Clement VII. He simply treated it as non-existent.

Nonetheless, there were persons then who thought that it was correct to imitate those Renaissance fashions and introduce them into religion. Let this example serve to instruct the clergy and the faithful that legitimate obedience to superiors should follow the teaching of St. Thomas who said, “It is not necessary to obey the Prelates in everything.”

traditioninaction.org/religious/i009-PopeErrors-1.htm

**Bp Grosseteste & Innocent IV **

Robert Grosseteste, the English Bishop of Lincoln (1235-1253), was an erudite, pious and zealous man who sought to reform his clergy. He turned his attention in particular toward those who had received high appointments through special privileges and did not fulfill their obligations.

Pope Innocent IV, however, did not hesitate to name one of his nephews to be a Canon in the Chapter of the Cathedral of Lincoln, ordering the Bishop to install his nephew without delay.
Bp Grosseteste tried by every means and manoeuver to avoid complying. But each time he was out-manoeuvered. After a considerable amount of such work, Bp Grosseteste had no remaining options within the ‘normal’ framawork of the law. It is then that he sent this reply:

“Precisely because of the obedience that binds me and for the love of my union with the Holy See in the Body of Christ, as an obedient son, I disobey, I contradict, I rebel. I resist your command. You cannot take action against me, for my every word and act is not rebellion but the filial honor due by God’s Commandment regarding father and mother.
"As I have said, the Apostolic See in its holiness cannot destroy, it can only build. This is what the plentitude of power means; it can do all things toward edification. But these privileges [your request for your nephew] do not build up, they destroy. Therefore, they cannot be the works of the blessed Apostolic See.”

Innocent IV was absolutely beside himself when he received this answer, and wished to punish Bishop Grosseteste, but his advisors dissuaded him on the grounds that it would be a scandal for all Christendom.

The deposit of the Faith is transmitted, and the acts of the Church Magisterium - either the supreme or the ordinary Magisterium - are inerrant to the degree that they conform to Catholic Tradition. The cases here reported demonstrate that a Pope is not impeccable and cannot pretend to be the owner of the Catholic Religion. He is an administrator (Tit 1: 7-9) who should remain within the limits of the norms for the exercise of his mandate. St. Paul lists these norms:
• “To keep the deposit of the Faith” (1 Tim 6:20);
• “Before all else, to transmit what he had received” (1 Cor 15:3);
• “To edify and not destroy” (2 Cor 10:8);
• “To keep the Traditions” (2 Tes 2:14);
• “To withdraw from any brother who walks disorderly, not following the received tradition” (2 Thes 3:6);
• “To show himself faithful as the dispenser of the Faith” (1 Cor 4:1-2).
Bishops and Popes, as successors of the Apostles and of the Prince of the Apostles, have a mission determined by the divine constitution of the Church. She must lead men to God, so that they may unite themselves with the Creator without impediments. The Church can never lose sight of this strictly religious and supernatural goal. The way the Church accomplishes this supernatural goal is indicated by Revelation itself. Hence, the obligation to follow Tradition, according to the precept of St. Paul given to the Galatians: “Even if we or an Angel from Heaven were to preach a Gospel to you different from what we have preached to you, let him be anathema” (1:8).

Ref: partly from traditioninaction.org website.

 

[CollegeStinks]

Why does everyone think that if the SSPX doesn’t reconcile before Benedict leaves, that they’re done for?

Are the only potential new popes modernist liberals who hate traditionalist groups? I didn’t know Benedict was so extraordinarily conservative that he and he alone would feel the desire to bring SSPX back.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I nominate these two snippets from our beloved Br. Jay for “Best Posts Ever”!!!

People often ask what the definition of ***‘traditional Catholic’ ***is-
Well, here ya go!!
Handed to you on a -]silver/-] wooden platter!
Sorry Br. Jay, lost my head for a minute, you’re a Franciscan, not a Jesuit!

snipped & edited

These men (Pope Paul VI, Bl. John Paul II and Pope Benedict) are simply putting their foot down and saying, “This is the way it is. I’m the pope, not Aquinas, not Bellarmined, not Pius X, but me.” There is a danger to place our allegiance and fidelity in the wrong place. Unless there is sin involved, our allegiance and fidelity must always be with the current Magisterium. That too is part of tradition. The Church has always been very submissive to the pope of the time, except the anti-popes, who obviously were not popes. Even when some of these popes were rascals, unless commanded to sin, the faithful (everyone) submitted.

.

 

[Lormar]

I nominate these two snippets from our beloved Br. Jay for “Best Posts Ever”!!!

People often ask what the definition of ***‘traditional Catholic’ ***is-
Well, here ya go!!
Handed to you on a -]silver/-] wooden platter!
Sorry Br. Jay, lost my head for a minute, you’re a Franciscan, not a Jesuit!

OOTW, thank you. You are absolutely correct.

I am going now to search for the St. Clement letter…

 

[Lormar]

Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue.

ewtn.com/library/patristc/anf1-1.htm

 

[JReducation]

ewtn.com/library/patristc/anf1-1.htm

I love Clement. He must have been something else. I believe that he may have been the first pope ever to invoke Apostolic Succession. Of course, he was only the fourth pope, that also makes a big difference. I can’t imagine the need to do so before him.

 

[JReducation]

ewtn.com/library/patristc/anf1-1.htm

I love Clement. He must have been something else. I believe that he may have been the first pope ever to invoke Apostolic Succession. Of course, he was only the fourth pope, that also makes a big difference. I can’t imagine the need to do so before him. The succession and the rights that go with it must have been pretty obvious to the first two generations of Christians.

 

[Moore11]

worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/12/16936793-popes-brother-pontiff-was-troubled-by-butlers-revelations?lite

Man, It is a good thing I am limiting my internet access for lent. I can’t take much more of the secular media.

I have never known that the group formerly known as the SSPX is now the “Brotherhood of pius” And that that along with the butler are the reason the Pope is stepping down.
Honestly, how can we live in a country and time that hates us so much.
If you feel the need to vomit. Read comments in the news stories.

 

[EphelDuath]

Don’t read the comments for Youtube/e-news, ever.

Seriously. There’s no point. Any responses you make will be lost in a sea of ignorance.

 

[JReducation]

worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/12/16936793-popes-brother-pontiff-was-troubled-by-butlers-revelations?lite

Man, It is a good thing I am limiting my internet access for lent. I can’t take much more of the secular media.

I have never known that the group formerly known as the SSPX is now the “Brotherhood of pius” And that that along with the butler are the reason the Pope is stepping down.
Honestly, how can we live in a country and time that hates us so much.
If you feel the need to vomit. Read comments in the news stories.

I think it’s a shortcut that someone is trying to take. Fraternal Society of St. Pius X. I don’t think that it has anything to do with hatred.

 

[Dee_S]

I nominate these two snippets from our beloved Br. Jay for “Best Posts Ever”!!!

People often ask what the definition of ***‘traditional Catholic’ ***is-
Well, here ya go!!
Handed to you on a -]silver/-] wooden platter!
Sorry Br. Jay, lost my head for a minute, you’re a Franciscan, not a Jesuit!

                 Originally Posted by **JReducation**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10350485#post10350485)                 
             *These men (Pope Paul VI, Bl. John  Paul II and Pope Benedict) are simply putting their foot down and  saying, "This is the way it is.  I'm the pope, not Aquinas, not  Bellarmine, not Pius X, but me." ** There is a danger to place our  allegiance and fidelity in the wrong place.  Unless there is sin  involved, our allegiance and fidelity must always be with the current  Magisterium.  That too is part of tradition. *** The Church has always been  very submissive to the pope of the time, except the anti-popes, who  obviously were not popes.  Even when some of these popes were rascals,  unless commanded to sin, the faithful (everyone) submitted. (my bold here)


                 Originally Posted by **JReducation**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10350670#post10350670)

Those folks should read the Letter to the Corinthians from St. Clement of Rome where is addresses the entire Church of Corinth, laity and clergy. He calls it to submission. He states that the Church is not a place where people can do what they like. Each one must exercise his role according to his vocation. He then clearly states the authority that comes with Apostolic Succession. The Holy See must be obeyed, because it is the will of God.

it has my vote.

 

[Moore11]

I think it’s a shortcut that someone is trying to take. Fraternal Society of St. Pius X. I don’t think that it has anything to do with hatred.

If not hatred then just ignorance. Perhaps you did not read it.
From the article:

Ratzinger did not specify the pope’s issues with the Pius Brotherhood, or Society of St. Pius X as the group is formally known.

Do people just make stuff up?

 

[JReducation]

If not hatred then just ignorance. Perhaps you did not read it.
From the article:

Do people just make stuff up?

I read the article, that’s why I think that maybe Msgr Ratzinger may have been shortening the name and got it wrong or whoever took his statement misunderstood him. We have to remember that Msgr Ratzinger is almost 90. The SSPX is not part of his daily vocabulary. He gets his information from his brother. He’s not going to keep up with such things as the specific names of different institutes and organizations.

The rest of his statement is accurate. The negotiations with the SSPX have been a cause of stress for the Holy Father and the men at the CDF. The fact is that there is nothing more that the Holy Father could offer them. If there is, no one has thought of it yet.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Holy See trumps every doctor, every saint, every council and every pope that came before.

This teaching may be why the Eastern Orthodox are reluctant to any union with the Roman Catholic Church. They see the Roman Pope has first among equals in united Church, but not as someone who “trumps every doctor, every saint, every council and every pope that came before.”

 

[simple_soul]

Oops beg pardon, simple soul - I was focussed in so much on trying to give a very concise account of the salient points that I forgot about your specific question …

*Numealinesimpet I read through your posts and I am not sure that it answers my question. Nothing you quoted in your last three posts helped to clarify for me how exactly Vatican I clarified for us the scope and limits of the pope.

I was not asking for others opinions on what the Pope’s scope and limits are. I was interested in knowing exactly how Vatican I clarified it.

If what you said in your last three posts did clarify how Vatican I clarified it then I am more dense than I realize and I beg your pardon for not getting what you are saying and will just have to back out of this conversation for now.

Have a wonderful and fruitful lent and please keep me in your prayers.*
.

 

[Faithdancer]

Is it true that if summoned to Rome, Pope Michael will normalize the status of the SSPX?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Rorate can independently confirm the report --hinted at just now in Le Forum Catholique – that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has sent a letter with a final offer to the Society of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX): resume the dialogue with the Holy See by February 22, or else the Holy See will make an offer of reconciliation and full communion to individual SSPX priests. (What kind of offer or structural basis will be offered is unclear.)

A last chance for the SSPX?
Plus: the SSPX in the heart of the Pope’s frustration

Papa has had it.

 

[jwinch2]

A last chance for the SSPX?
Plus: the SSPX in the heart of the Pope’s frustration

Papa has had it.

He’s been more than patient, and I can’t blame him for not wishing to kick the can down the road to his successor.