SSPX/Vatican II

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If I might put in my $.02, I would add that in 2002 the Vatican established an Apostolic Administration for the Society of St. John Vianney in the diocese of Campos, Brazil. The S.S.J.V. was in a situation similar to that of the S.S.P.X. until they were regularized by Rome. They are led by Bishop Fernando Areas Rifan. The Apostolic Administration is essentially an independent diocese operating within the diocese of Campos and a couple of surrounding dioceses.

As far as traditional groups in communion with Rome, I can tell you that the F.S.S.P. and I.C.K. have ordained twenty new priests this year alone. Both have many seminarians in formation with plans to expand their seminaries. The Institute of Christ the King this year announced the formation of a traditional religious society for women. The Institute has two missions in Africa, three apostolates in Wisconsin, one in Rockford, Illinois, and Cardinal George has recently invited the Institute to revitalize a defunct inner-city parish in Chicago.

The F.S.S.P. has two seminaries. One is in Wigratzbad, Germany, and the other in Denton, Nebraska. The Fraternity is present in more than 50 dioceses spread over 15 countries and four continents. The F.S.S.P. currently has nearly 170 priests and 120 seminarians in formation.

Far from being a limited provision, the Ecclesia Dei indult recognizes the rightful attachment of Catholics to the treasure that is the Missal of Pope St. Pius V. As has been indicated before, the Latin Rite of the Church can boast various rites and uses including the Ambrosian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, the Braga Rite, and the Sarum Use. Recently the Vatican granted permission for yet another use within the Latin Rite - the Anglican Use - to accomodate those returning to the Catholic Church from Anglicanism. All of these various rites and uses exist side by side with the Novus Ordo Missae just as the Latin Rite of the Church peacefully coexists with the nearly twenty Eastern Rites recognized by Rome (e.g. the Coptic, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, etc.)
 
Hopefully this is not coming too far after the fact that this thread started 3 months ago. I, for one, prefer the Tridentine Mass but do attend the current Mass. My parish offers a Tridentine Mass once a month and I am grateful for that. I attended a SSPX church for 3 years. It was wonderful, like stepping back in time. But there is not one located near anymore. I have one question: Did not Pope St. Pius V say that the Tridentine Mass was the Mass to be said for perpetuity? How does that stand alongside Vatican II?
 
Yes, both St Pius V and St. Pius X called for the Tridentine Mass to remain the Holy Mass of the Catholic faithful…for all time. The Tridentine Mass was established by TWO Popes… both Saints… and no earthly pope ( non canonized ) can excommunicate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or it’s faithful. If you believe he can… then you follow a man, not God.
 
The Dead Bishop:
Yes, both St Pius V and St. Pius X called for the Tridentine Mass to remain the Holy Mass of the Catholic faithful…for all time. The Tridentine Mass was established by TWO Popes… both Saints… and no earthly pope ( non canonized ) can excommunicate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or it’s faithful. If you believe he can… then you follow a man, not God.
Respondens autem Iesus dixit ei: “ Beatus es, Simon Bariona, quia caro et sanguis non revelavit tibi sed Pater meus, qui in caelis est. Et ego dico tibi: Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam; et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam. Tibi dabo claves regni caelorum; et quodcumque ligaveris super terram, erit ligatum in caelis, et quodcumque solveris super terram, erit solutum in caelis ”. (Evangelium Secundum Matthaeum 16, 17-19)

Oboedite praepositis vestris et subiacete eis; ipsi enim pervigilant pro animabus vestris quasi rationem reddituri, ut cum gaudio hoc faciant et non gementes; hoc enim non expedit vobis. (Ad Hebraeos Epistula 13, 17)
 
I thought the SSPX was a banned topic in this forum. The last time I posted on this topic the thread vanished.

There is no debate, the SSPX are excommunicated.
Anyone who joins them is excommunicated.
Their Mass is not valid, with very rare and few exeptions.
Confession is not valid.
Marriage and annulments are not valid.
They grant annulments outside of Rome’s approval, similar to the “annulment” of Henry VIII.
They score high on the criteria as a mind control cult by 5 independent counter-cult agencies and experts.

How to Rescue Someone from the Influence of the SSPX
sspx-cult.com/SSPXDeprogramming.htm
 
There is no debate, the SSPX are excommunicated.
Anyone who joins them is excommunicated.
Their Mass is not valid, with very rare and few exeptions.
Much of what you have written, kepha1, is correct - except for the above three items which need clarification:
  1. Only persons can be excommunicated. The SSPX is an inanimate organization. Specifically excommunicated were Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Castro Mayer and the four bishops consecrated by them.
Those who adhered to their schism were also warned that they also could face excommunication for schism. However, it is admitted that SOME persons who attend SSPX Masses may do so without possessing or adhering to the schismatic mentality - and so would not suffer that fate.

After such a time lapse, the Vatican has stated that it would seem that SSPX priests would be unlikely to NOT be in the state of schism and excommunication.
  1. Lay persons never are members of the SSPX - only adherents; they do not “join” the SSPX… A person is only excommunicated IF they imbibe and adhere to the schism. They may not even KNOW OF or ADHERE to the schism.
  2. The validity of the SSPX Mass is not normally questioned. It is certain that the SSPX priests ARE validly ordained; do say the form required for validity; do possess the correct intention and do use the correct matter.
My 23 plus years (from c. 1974 - to 1997) as an adherent to the SSPX are recorded at jloughnan.tripod.com/sspx-1.htm
 
Sean O L:
  1. Lay persons never are members of the SSPX - only adherents; they do not “join” the SSPX… A person is only excommunicated IF they imbibe and adhere to the schism. They may not even KNOW OF or ADHERE to the schism.
I have seen this claim before, that lay persons can not be members of the SSPX. This is wrong.

The SSPX has a lay third order. Those lay persons who join the SSPX third order enter into the schism of the SSPX and thereby excommunicate themselves.

The Third Order of the SSPX

So to say it one more time, lay persons can be member of the SSPX by joining the SSPX Third Order.
 
G’day David and thanks for the info. And clarification.

The following question from Benjamin on August 9, 2003 makes it clear that, at least HE, is not aware of lay persons being members of the SSPX

Code:
 **[saint-mike.org/apologetics/QA/Answers/Faith_Spirituality/f0308090341.html](http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/QA/Answers/Faith_Spirituality/f0308090341.html) ______________________________________________________-**
Nor do former SSPX Seminarians:

What are the Ordonnances?


sspx-schism.com/Lefebvre1.htm

Q. I wonder of the ordonnonces HAVE been changed contrary to Archbishop Lefebvre’s institution?

Code:
 Read what Msgr Camille Perl stated to me in writing that “in the strict sense there are no ‘lay members’…”
jloughnan.tripod.com/ratzperl.htm
Code:
 Excerpt from Correspondence To And From Rome
The following is from the SSPX website:
Code:
  “The Society has expanded rather rapidly and now (August 2000) includes more that 650 members, of whom 401 are priests, and 170 seminarians. The priests are distributed among the 6 seminaries and about 125 houses and churches, in 30 countries spread on the five continents.”

  [sspx.org/Vocations/sspx_in_the_usa.htm](http://www.sspx.org/Vocations/sspx_in_the_usa.htm)

  Note: That this was true as at August 2000 doen not necessarily hold true for today – which only proves that the SSPX is NOT consistent with consistency.

  ________________________________________________
Conclusion: While the link provided speaks of there being NOW 5 groups in the “family” of the SSPX – it is ambiguous as to each of the groups actually being “members” of The Priestly Society of St Pius X (SSPX). It speaks of lay persons being members of The Third Order. It does not say specifically that membership in the Third Order means membership in the Priestly Society of St Pius X.
Code:
  In any event – IF all five groups ARE “members” in the strict sense – then a greater number of individuals are all the more likely to be formally in schism and excommunicated – which is a shame – for there is NO “Good” reason for schism
 
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kepha1:
I thought the SSPX was a banned topic in this forum. The last time I posted on this topic the thread vanished.

There is no debate, the SSPX are excommunicated.
Anyone who joins them is excommunicated.
Their Mass is not valid, with very rare and few exeptions.
Confession is not valid.
Marriage and annulments are not valid.
They grant annulments outside of Rome’s approval, similar to the “annulment” of Henry VIII.
They score high on the criteria as a mind control cult by 5 independent counter-cult agencies and experts.

How to Rescue Someone from the Influence of the SSPX
sspx-cult.com/SSPXDeprogramming.htm
Yep! I thought it was a banned topic also. :confused:

What’s to talk about. They are not Roman Catholic, they are not part of the church. End of story. Probably end of thread when the Mod’s find the thread. 😃
 
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Marie:
Yep! I thought it was a banned topic also. :confused:

What’s to talk about. They are not Roman Catholic, they are not part of the church. End of story. Probably end of thread when the Mod’s find the thread. 😃
shhhhh. don’t tell the mod-squad… what they don’t know, won’t hurt them. They are like parents… always taking away our fun.
 
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MrS:
shhhhh. don’t tell the mod-squad… what they don’t know, won’t hurt them. They are like parents… always taking away our fun.
MMMMM! How much of your bag of M and M’s ya gonna give me, if I don’t tell? :rotfl:
 
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Marie:
MMMMM! How much of your bag of M and M’s ya gonna give me, if I don’t tell? :rotfl:
That is something you will have to ask that Tlaloc fellow… he knows all .

(peanut…chocolate…Christmas red and green…??)
 
“I am the great and powerful Oz…”

The mods are quiet aware of this thread. While not omniscient we do tend to be around the boards quite a bit keeping an eye on things.

But seriously folks…SSPX by itself is not a banned topic as far as discussion goes. It is when the threads cross over into the area of sedavacantism that things get into an area that we frown upon. Also links to pro-SSPX websites would be a big no-no, so when they do appear they are deleted. As long as things don’t get too heated the threads will be allowed to remain.

Happy New Year All!

Paul Stephens
Moderator
 
Paul Stephens said:
“I am the great and powerful Oz…”

The mods are quiet aware of this thread. While not omniscient we do tend to be around the boards quite a bit keeping an eye on things.

But seriously folks…SSPX by itself is not a banned topic as far as discussion goes. It is when the threads cross over into the area of sedavacantism that things get into an area that we frown upon. Also links to pro-SSPX websites would be a big no-no, so when they do appear they are deleted. As long as things don’t get too heated the threads will be allowed to remain.

Happy New Year All!

Paul Stephens
Moderator

Ozzie Osborne… is that really you…

darn, you are just no fun at all smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_87.gif

but Happy New Year to you too
 
Paul Stephens said:
“I am the great and powerful Oz…”

The mods are quiet aware of this thread. While not omniscient we do tend to be around the boards quite a bit keeping an eye on things.

But seriously folks…SSPX by itself is not a banned topic as far as discussion goes. It is when the threads cross over into the area of sedavacantism that things get into an area that we frown upon. Also links to pro-SSPX websites would be a big no-no, so when they do appear they are deleted. As long as things don’t get too heated the threads will be allowed to remain.

Happy New Year All!

Paul Stephens
Moderator
so ... while SSPX is not banned ; if an "SSPXer" begins to make a just and rightous point with another "debater" then the debater needs only to drag the thread into sedavacantism territory and the thread will be closed. Also, the faithful who are truely searching for answers are not allowed to receive web site info from sites that explain SSPX's position.Sounds a lot like Christ's trial in the middle of the night without those Jewish "Prelates" who might have favored His teachings.
 
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