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I believe there are two Mary’s. One was Catholic and very well liked and the other was ??? and called Bloody Mary. They may be related by marriage, but not both are Tudors.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
So, how 'bout them SSPX and the Pope?🙂
I guess on the topic of England, what does the SSPX think of the Anglican Use?
 
I believe there are two Mary’s. One was Catholic and very well liked and the other was ??? and called Bloody Mary. They may be related by marriage, but not both are Tudors.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Mary I, Henry VIII’s daughter was called Bloody Mary after she brought back the anti heresy laws and starting executing protestants including burning them at the stake. Those were times full of violence and cruelty caused by non Catholics and non Catholics alike.
 
She was loved by the Catholics - at least those who could stomach her bloodlust. You do know what happened to her ‘marriage’?

I am just speaking on history. She could never have united the people. Elizabeth did. I am no fan of Elizabeth I but that is the truth.

Just my bit, totally digressing, my apologies to all.
Elizabeth uniting England is a myth. There was never more fracturing and division then during Elizabeth’s reign. Elizabeth’s government did one thing well, and that was propaganda. Her image and legacy is a result of that propaganda and so is the usual myth of Tudor England’s history - “Bloody Mary” included.

Queen Mary did not have a bloodlust. Most of the reformers were in London and it was in London that she galvinized her support. Compare that to the Council that ruled in Edward VI’s name while he was a boy. During the Prayer Book rebellion the Crown’s treasury was depleted in order to hire armies of foreign mercenaries to put down the rebellion. They did so and thousands of Englishmen and their families were slain. These are all martyrs. The supposed Englishness of the Reformation was betrayed and shown for what it was. Queen Mary did not resort to foreign arms to establish her government and even salvaged that government by recruiting from the notorious hot bed and centre of the reformers in England: London. The Catholics were most staunchly entrenched not in that city but to the North (where the Pilgramage of Grace sprung up during Henry’s reign).

You have to recall the context Queen Mary lived in. The preceding government was filled with people that were absolutely hated by the people because they had gorged themselves off of the Church and the common people with crushing taxes. The revolution begun by Henry VIII had created a whole new class of people that profited immensely from the break with Rome and had a vested interest in not seeing that break reversed. The resistance Queen Mary met was absolutely confined to such people; whereas, the resistance met by Henry VIII and Edward VI’s government consisted entirely of the common people: their difficulty was finding nobles who would lead and support them but, unfortunately, most of these had profited from the religious revolution and acquired vast new lands as a result. G.K Chesterton, commenting on the English Reformation, called it “the revolt of the rich.” The vast majority of Englishmen were Catholic and remained with their Catholic sensibilities and this is largely why Anglicanism is so markedly different from its Continental counterparts.

You can easily count the Protestants that were burned for heresy during Henry’s or Queen Mary’s reigns; however, trying to count all the Catholics that died for their Faith during the Tudor period is virtually impossible. You have the tens of thousands of men and their families that died because of the Pilgrimage of Grace and because of the Prayer Book rebellion; you have all the usual Catholic martyrs who resisted the break and lost their heads for it under Henry, Edward and Elizabeth; you have the countless priests and religious who died under Henry and again under Elizabeth I. You have all of the religious who were forced out of their monasteries (thousands of them) and onto the streets when their lands were confiscated. These had no trades to work in, nowhere to go, and we simply have no idea how many of them starved or froze to death and how many fell victim to the disgusting laws that were passed by parliament on account of the rising tide of homelessness and beggars when the Church was being liquidated and all the charity she dispensed ceased. The poor who relied on the Church (the only welfare institution that existed then) were all now completely destitute, and all those who relived the poor (the religious) were further added to their ranks.

England during the Tudor era was soaked in the blood of Catholics and today I am constantly reminded of the truth that it is the victors who write the history.
 
I believe there are two Mary’s. One was Catholic and very well liked and the other was ??? and called Bloody Mary. They may be related by marriage, but not both are Tudors.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Yes, you are thinking of Mary Queen of Scots but she never reigned and was an existential threat to Elizabeth I. She was later beheaded by Elizabeth I for being suspected of plotting against the Crown.
 
Mary I, Henry VIII’s daughter was called Bloody Mary after she brought back the anti heresy laws and starting executing protestants including burning them at the stake. Those were times full of violence and cruelty caused by non Catholics and non Catholics alike.
Mary did not kill any more people over religion than her father, brother or sister. They however were Protestant, so the Protestant historians that dominated England downplayed their killing.
 
This is fun and educational. While we are waiting SSPX news I feel like the jeopardy theme song should be playing.
 
While we are waiting SSPX news I feel like the jeopardy theme song should be playing.
You would here so many times before the final reconciliation that you would go insane!
:whistle::banghead:
MAKE IT STOP!
😃
 
I feel like it would be better if we talked about Henry VIII’s family in a thread about the Anglican Use. 😉
 
I feel like it would be better if we talked about Henry VIII’s family in a thread about the Anglican Use. 😉
Actually I’ve enjoyed reading about the Tudor family in here. The news is dying down about the SSPX signing, and that will be the case until the next little bit of news comes from Rome, I expect.
 
Actually I’ve enjoyed reading about the Tudor family in here. The news is dying down about the SSPX signing, and that will be the case until the next little bit of news comes from Rome, I expect.
Oh, I love it too! I was just making a little joke. The Anglican Use is welcoming back those who left during Henry’s reign. Thought it would be a little ironic justice. 😛
 
Yes, you are thinking of Mary Queen of Scots but she never reigned and was an existential threat to Elizabeth I. She was later beheaded by Elizabeth I for being suspected of plotting against the Crown.
Actually I’ve enjoyed reading about the Tudor family in here. The news is dying down about the SSPX signing, and that will be the case until the next little bit of news comes from Rome, I expect.
Rome is not in much of a hurry to report on this. My guess is still that we will hear something between today and Wed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Rome is not in much of a hurry to report on this. My guess is still that we will hear something between today and Wed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
It’s all good. When they’re ready. I’m happy to see the increase in unity and I’m sure when they iron it out, we’ll hear about it. 👍
 
It’s all good. When they’re ready. I’m happy to see the increase in unity and I’m sure when they iron it out, we’ll hear about it. 👍
At this point, I’m not celebrating nor mourning anything. I have no feelings or opinions on this until the Church tells me what I’m supposed to think and feel about it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Mary did not kill any more people over religion than her father, brother or sister. They however were Protestant, so the Protestant historians that dominated England downplayed their killing.
Let us not make this a Catholic v Protestant thing please. There was enough blood shed by all to last a lifetime. I just like history and really do you think English historians even today are twisting history?
 
Let us not make this a Catholic v Protestant thing please. There was enough blood shed by all to last a lifetime. I just like history and really do you think English historians even today are twisting history?
Using the title “Bloody Mary” is already Protestant versus Catholic thing. It is merely Protestant propaganda and not an accurate reflection of history. There is no real reason to call her bloodthirsty or speak of her rampages, as you have written here. If you like history, I suggest looking into this in more depth.
 
“Bloody Mary” is a point of view. If I were at the receiving end, I would probably have a few choice words for her too. It does not mean that these words adequately define her. They adequately define how the Protestants felt about her.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
“Bloody Mary” is a point of view. If I were at the receiving end, I would probably have a few choice words for her too. It does not mean that these words adequately define her. They adequately define how the Protestants felt about her.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
As someone who has always loved history (even before I converted) I have to take objection to the subjectivist view of it. Those under Queen Mary would have at least had fair trials and hearings; under the others i) judicial murder and ii) massacres (under Henry VIII, Edward VI’s council (Edward was just a boy)) was the norm. For examples of judicial murder, see what happened to Thomas More under Henry VIII and Edmund Campion, S.J., under Elizabeth I. The massacres have already been mentioned (Pilgrimage of Grace, Henry VIII and Prayer Book rebellion, Edward VI’s Council, set up by Henry VIII).

It is simply wrong to call Queen Mary bloodthirsty as it obscures her remarkable virtues and especially her outstanding courage. Queen Mary and Queen Catherine are legitimate heroines.
 
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