St. Augustine and the quote: Jews "must be allowed to survive, but never to thrive"

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And look at what else you’re calling evil, NonT.
Well, I actually never called it anything at all. I asked a question.

Was there evil within the Law? Depends on what you mean by Law. Christ definitely thought the divorce part was evil.

Unfortunately for us, the Catechism is not without error.
 
God is perfect. God is good. Anything less than perfection would then be evil, no?
Oh, and please be aware that NonT has JUST CALLED THE OLD TESTAMENT EVIL.
122 Indeed, “the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men.” “Even though they contain matters **imperfect **and provisional,” the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings “are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way.”
:bigyikes:
 
God is perfect. God is good. Anything less than perfection would then be evil, no?
More absurdity that NonT is declaring when asserting that “anything less than perfection would then be evil”.

The family is EVIL.
“Nevertheless, the family is an** imperfect** society, since it has not in itself all the means for its own complete development;”
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121929_divini-illius-magistri.html
 
“Don’t believe everything you hear on NPR or read on the internet.” -St. Francis de Sales
Just to be clear: I heard the speaker (a Hasidic Jew) say “Augustine said that…”, so whether it’s on NPR or Breibart is irrelevant.

Also, I can one-up you on the St. Francis de Sales quote.

 
FOUNDATIONS OF ANTISEMITISM: AUGUSTINE AND CHRISTIAN TRIUMPHALISM

"…the very presence of the Jewish people in the world … puts a great question against Christian belief in a new covenant made through Christ.”

For a thousand years and more the Church remorselessly searched out Christian beliefs considered heresies, hunted down, tortured and murdered their adherents. So how explain the survival of Jews? Not until the twentieth century were the Jews subject to extermination as a group, and that by secular forces in the Christian West. Under religious authorities the Jews were persecuted, expelled, murdered; the Crusades saw whole communities put to the sword en route to “liberate” Jerusalem from the infidels. Spain forced its Jews to convert or be expelled. Later, and even after generations, those forced to convert and their descendents were suspected of being “insincere” in their Catholicism, tortured until the “confessed,” then burned at the stake. Yet heresies from Gnosticism and Montanism in the first and second centuries to Catharism in the eleventh were all ruthlessly suppressed. The emergence of Protestantism in the sixteenth century, the most serious heretical challenge to the Church proved too widespread to be suppressed. Europe’s Thirty Year’s War began as a religious conflict.

The Church’s problem with the survival of Judaism grew increasingly difficult beginning in the 4th century. Judaism was not, of course, a “heresy.” But the survival of Jews and Judaism in a post-messianic era posed a question of the legitimacy of Christian claims to be the “new” Israel; questioned even the role of Jesus as messiah.

St. Augustine of Hippo (354–430): For the new Church the continuing existence of the Jews demanded explanation. If the Jews exist it must be part of God’s plan, but how understand that plan? Augustine attempted to provide these answers in his City of God.

According to Augustine,

“Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ.”

If Augustine provided the theological rationale for preserving some Jews he also maintained that Christianity superseded Judaism, inherited Jewish scripture, history and most importantly, the Covenant with God. This was Augustine’s, “‘theory of substitution’ whereby the New Israel of the church became a substitute of ancient Israel…”

“the house of Israel which [God] has cast off… are themselves the builders of destruction and rejecters of the cornerstone [Jesus]… the Lord Christ distinguished between His faithful ones and His Jewish enemies [my emphasis, also below].”

Supersessionism was not, of course, an invention of Augustine. It likely originated with Paul’s assertion that circumcision of the heart substituted for the physical act. Tertullian, an early Church Father wrote, “Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices,—the old law being obliterated…” Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho wrote, “…law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one.”

Augustine and a Jewish remnant: So the question before Augustine was, “If the church was the “spiritual,” the “new Israel,” for what purpose did “national,” the ancient Israel exist?” The answer, God allows the Jews to survive “debased,” “destitute” and “in dispersion,” as a warning to Christians. “The Jews who slew Him, and would not believe in Him,” were punished by God, their temple destroyed, Jerusalem leveled. God has allowed them to survive as a continuing punishment because they “bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ.” Three centuries after the Matthew gospel the sentences that would haunt the Jews through the millennia, justification for continuing persecution, is affirmed and developed by perhaps Christianity’s greatest thinker and theologian!

In Christian Antisemitism: A History of Hate Episcopal minister William Nicholls places Augustine’s approach to the question of Jewish survival in modern and socio-psychological terms:

“…the very presence of the Jewish people in the world … puts a great question against Christian belief in a new covenant made through Christ. The presence of this question, often buried deep in the Christian mind, could not fail to cause profound and gnawing anxiety. Anxiety usually leads to hostility.”

m.jpost.com/Blogs/The-Jewish-Problem—From-anti-Judaism-to-anti-Semitism/Foundations-of-antisemitism-Augustine-and-Christian-Triumphalism-365442
Much of what you say regarding St. Augustine and his writings is, unfortunately, probably correct. The Church Fathers were not perfect by any means, and, as I understand it, their words, no matter how respected, are not infallible. Further, the uneasy tension that is still present to this day between the Church and Judaism can be attributed to the thinking and writing of some of the Church Fathers. However, as in any such emotional discussion, there is always another side to the story. Throughout the ages, there were Catholics, including Popes as well as common citizens, who were NOT anti-Semitic and, in fact, aided the Jews and saved them from persecution in times of their greatest need. That side of the story you have omitted. I do not know exactly what your own agenda may be in reliving this dark history of the Church and its relation to Jewry. Today, however, even the most Orthodox of Jews would have to admit, it is not the Church or Christianity that Jews have to fear the most in the world. That part of the story you have also chosen to omit.
 
Much of what you say regarding St. Augustine and his writings is, unfortunately, probably correct. The Church Fathers were not perfect by any means, and, as I understand it, their words, no matter how respected, are not infallible. Further, the uneasy tension that is still present to this day between the Church and Judaism can be attributed to the thinking and writing of some of the Church Fathers. However, as in any such emotional discussion, there is always another side to the story. Throughout the ages, there were Catholics, including Popes as well as common citizens, who were NOT anti-Semitic and, in fact, aided the Jews and saved them from persecution in times of their greatest need. That side of the story you have omitted. I do not know exactly what your own agenda may be in reliving this dark history of the Church and its relation to Jewry. Today, however, even the most Orthodox of Jews would have to admit, it is not the Church or Christianity that Jews have to fear the most in the world. That part of the story you have also chosen to omit.
:tiphat:
 
Much of what you say regarding St. Augustine and his writings is, unfortunately, probably correct. The Church Fathers were not perfect by any means, and, as I understand it, their words, no matter how respected, are not infallible. Further, the uneasy tension that is still present to this day between the Church and Judaism can be attributed to the thinking and writing of some of the Church Fathers. However, as in any such emotional discussion, there is always another side to the story. Throughout the ages, there were Catholics, including Popes as well as common citizens, who were NOT anti-Semitic and, in fact, aided the Jews and saved them from persecution in times of their greatest need. That side of the story you have omitted. I do not know exactly what your own agenda may be in reliving this dark history of the Church and its relation to Jewry. Today, however, even the most Orthodox of Jews would have to admit, it is not the Church or Christianity that Jews have to fear the most in the world. That part of the story you have also chosen to omit.
I’m not the one who brought it up. I simply answered a question by PRmerger who asked for a primary source for the quote by St. Augustine. Others here tried to deny that he said it.

I provided the actual quote in full, to answer the question, along with some articles giving more background information.
 
I’m not the one who brought it up. I simply answered a question by PRmerger who asked if the quote by St. Augustine is true. Others here tried to deny that he said it.

I provided the actual quote in full, to answer the question, along with some articles giving more background information.
Fair enough. You should, however, realize that not every leader of the Church followed in Augustine’s footsteps with respect to his thinking about Jews.
 
Fair enough. You should, however, realize that not every leader of the Church followed in Augustine’s footsteps with respect to his thinking about Jews.
No, I think your observation that JPUSC has an agenda is an astute one.

A quick read of JPUSC’s posting history will show a deep bias against the Church.
 
No, I think your observation that JPUSC has an agenda is an astute one.
Sorry I burst your bubble and showed you what you were looking for.

Guess I shouldn’t mention St. John Chrysostom or St. Justin Martyr as well.
 
Among people who bother to think about the history of anti-Semitism, Augustine’s reputation is based on the idea that Jews should be “allowed to survive, but not to thrive.” It’s always attributed to him, and it sounds like a sound bite. So — the word “allowed” implies superior power, “survival” is a reduced form of existence, and “not to thrive” means actively being kept in a situation of deprivation.
I read the same English and I read something entirely different. “Allowed” implies don’t exert superior power. “Survive” means to exist status quo. And “not to thrive” means not to be permitted to have superior power.

If I were to re-word it, Jews should be given their due dignity and rights, but they should not be allowed to place others in bondage against their will.
 
I read the same English and I read something entirely different. “Allowed” implies don’t exert superior power. “Survive” means to exist status quo. And “not to thrive” means not to be permitted to have superior power.

If I were to re-word it, Jews should be given their due dignity and rights, but they should not be allowed to place others in bondage against their will.
“Allowed to survive, but not to thrive” is not the exact quote.

The quote is, “Slay them not [the Jews]…scatter them abroad.”
 
Though the Catholic Church accepted both the message of the Old and New Testaments as divinely inspired, the Church saw the Torah’s focus on law and land covenants as being too carnal and lacking spirituality. **Scholarly Catholic priests, like Jerome, taught that Jewish Law served as God’s punishment for a stubborn people, not a gift for his covenanted nation. ** Jerome even went so far as to say that the apostles and Paul abandoned the Law. In passages like Galatians 2, according to Jerome, Paul and Peter were only pretending to question the Law’s application to Christian Jews. Augustine had a heated letter exchange with Jerome on this subject, writing that the Law may no longer be relevant to Christians in the fourth century but the early Christian believers were warranted in their observance.

Augustine argued that Jews, unlike heretical Christian groups, should be allowed to continue their religious practices because they were divinely proscribed by the one true God. He pointed to the many passages in both the Old Testament and New that referred to the Law as a blessing and its literal practice as merited. Augustine even defended the Jews’ Sabbath keeping, circumcision, and the Temple sacrificial system. His peers saw these acts as reeking of cult but Augustine saw in them prophetic design pointing towards his Messiah. Augustine went so far as to say that the survival of Jewish practices after so many years of foreign domination was “a miracle to be greatly in awe of.” Augustine warned future rulers that to kill Jewish believers would call down the curses of God.

Despite how much Augustine worked to redefine certain Christian theology towards Judaism, he still held on to the invective of Jewish obstinacy. Since Jesus was to have fulfilled the prophecies and hopes of the Jewish Scriptures, Augustine maintained that the Jews’ exile and dispersion was proof of divine punishment for their rejection of Jesus. Justin Martyr had set the precedent for this belief back in the second century. Augustine wrote that, like the Biblical Cain, Jews were destined to “live groaning and trembling on the earth” (Genesis 4:12) at the mercy of their younger brother Abel—a symbol of the Christian Church.

Known as his “witness doctrine,” Augustine formulated a theological idea that Jews should be allowed to live among Christians as a witness to the truth and antiquity of the Christian faith. Augustine wanted Jewish scripture and practices to be preserved because “by the evidence of their own scriptures they bear witness for us that we have not fabricated the prophecies of Christ.” To support his thesis, Augustine utilized Psalms 59 warning “slay them not, lest they forget your law.” While the call for Jewish protection was remarkable in his day, Augustine’s witness doctrine had a sharp edge. Jews were to survive, so they could carry the mantle of messianic hope and prove the antiquity of the new Christian faith. However, Jews could not thrive, less they appear to outrank Christians in favor and blessing. Augustine created an awkward proscription for Christian treatment of the Jews. Allow them to live but not to excel. Allow them to worship, but only at the mercy of the Church. This premise was known ironically as “Augustinian tolerance.”


In his warmest polemics, Augustine defended Jews by upholding the writings of Paul which told Christians to love the Jews. Augustine even argued that by virtue of Jesus’s own Jewishness, Christians should spare his brothers. In his letters Against Faustus, Augustine stated that the church may be the bride of Christ but the synagogue was his mother. Making a note of Christianity’s Jewish roots may seem obvious in our own modern context, but in Augustine’s day his words were nothing short of revolutionary.

Following Augustine, Christian theology towards the Jews was based on a delicate balance of tolerance and degradation, the scales easily being tipped either way depending on the whims of the Church. Most of the nuances of Augustine’s teaching were lost on the anti-Semitic masses. They would easily use Augustine’s witness doctrine as an excuse to further Jewish suffering and rationalize their persecution. When the anti-Jewish mobs became too violent and their fervor too pitched, churchmen would intervene to stop them in the name of Augustinian tolerance.

James Carrol in his book Constantine’s Sword explains the ambiguous results of the “witness” prescription:

“History would show that such double-edged ambivalence is impossible to sustain without disastrous consequences. For 1000 years the compulsively repeated pattern of that ambivalence would show in bishops and popes protecting Jews—but from expressly Christian mobs that wanted to kill Jews because of what bishops and popes had taught about Jews. Such a teaching that wants it both ways was bound to fail, as it would become evident at every point in history when Jews presumed to even think of thriving.”

Augustine’s calls for restraint towards Jews, in an age of murder or conversion, were revolutionary for his time and may be credited for saving many Jewish lives through the centuries. However, the disastrous results of such a double-edged doctrine are identifiable through history.

thejerusalemconnection.us/blog/2013/03/28/saint-augustine-revisited
 
“Allowed to survive, but not to thrive” is not the exact quote.

The quote is, “Slay them not [the Jews]…scatter them abroad.”
That is not correct. The OP was a question about a citation. A citation I chose to address. You have instead chosen a quote which was not a question of the OP but rather almost hijack superceding of the thread.

I would be happy to answer you if you opened a new thread around your agenda.

But for now we can look at history through the looking glass of ww2 and impose that on the magna carta and all the ecfs and even drag them through our own private nuremburg.
 
“Allowed to survive, but not to thrive” is not the exact quote.

The quote is, “Slay them not [the Jews]…scatter them abroad.”
One more thing. Please stop copy/pasting the Internet.
 
That is not correct. The OP was a question about a citation. A citation I chose to address. You have instead chosen a quote which was not a question of the OP but rather almost hijack superceding of the thread.

I would be happy to answer you if you opened a new thread around your agenda.

But for now we can look at history through the looking glass of ww2 and impose that on the magna carta and all the ecfs and even drag them through our own private nuremburg.
The OP heard the “citation” on a radio program. That “citation” is incorrect. St. Augustine never said those words (“must be allowed to survive, but never to thrive”), which seem like a summary of the correct quote I posted from St. Augustine’s Exposition on Psalm 49.

That specific phrase (“must be allowed to survive, but never to thrive”) is from a book by James Carroll which summarizes the “Slay them not [the Jews]…scatter them abroad” quote from St. Augustine’s Exposition on Psalm 49 (newadvent.org/fathers/1801049.htm).

Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews
by James Carroll
books.google.com/books?id=FewzTELynqUC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq

Learn how to do your research. :mad:
I read the same English and I read something entirely different. “Allowed” implies don’t exert superior power. “Survive” means to exist status quo. And “not to thrive” means not to be permitted to have superior power.

If I were to re-word it, Jews should be given their due dignity and rights, but they should not be allowed to place others in bondage against their will.
It is laughable that you were attempting to analyze and stretch around the meaning of a non-existent quote St. Augustine never uttered without first researching to make sure those were the actual words he used.
 
More absurdity that NonT is declaring when asserting that “anything less than perfection would then be evil”.

The family is EVIL.
Did I make that assertion, or ask the question?

Are you claiming there are families without evil within them?

(Also what’s with the gay dudes and the “sass” attitude are you a woman or just a “modern” man.)
 
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