Then God broke His promisesAnd what if in five years you were to stop walking in the light, confessing your sins, obeying Christ’s commands, loving fellow believers, believing in Jesus as the incarnate God, and practicing righteousness?
We have the proper guidance available to determine if we are on “the way” or not, but we cannot be assured we will not stray, as even Paul feared he might. To quote Thomas Aquinas:
yepDo you know you will do all these things until the end?
But, moreover, that such things as these are so spoken to saints who will persevere, as if it were reckoned uncertain whether they will persevere, is a reason that they ought not otherwise to hear these things, since it is well for them “not to be high-minded, but to fear” [Romans 11:20]. For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden; since here we have to beware so much of pride, that even so great an apostle was buffetted by a messenger of Satan, lest he should be lifted up [2 Corinthians 12:7]. Hence it was said to the apostles, “If ye abide in me [John 15:7]” and this He said who knew for a certainty that they would abide; and through the prophet, “If ye shall be willing, and will hear me,” [Isaiah 1:19] although He knew in whom He would work to will also. And many similar things are said. For on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, lest, perchance, any one should be lifted up, but that all, even although they are running well, should fear, in that it is not known who may attain,-on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, it must be believed that some of the children of perdition, who have not received the gift of perseverance to the end, begin to live in the faith which worketh by love, and live for some time faithfully and righteously, and afterwards fall away, and are not taken away from this life before this happens to them. If this had happened to none of these, men would have that very wholesome fear, by which the sin of presumption is kept down, only so long as until they should attain to the grace of Christ by which to live piously, and afterwards would for time to come be secure that they would never fall away from Him.** And such presumption in this condition of trials is not fitting, where there is so great weakness, that security may engender pride.** Finally, this also shall be the case; but it shall be at that time, in men also as it already is in the angels, when there cannot be any pride. Therefore the number of the saints, by God’s grace predestinated to God’s kingdom, with the gift of perseverance to the end bestowed on them, shall be guided thither in its completeness, and there shall be at length without end preserved in its fullest completeness, most blessed, the mercy of their Saviour still cleaving to them, whether in their conversion, in their conflict, or in their crown!
Augustine, A Treatise on Rebuke and Grace, Chapter 40
If you stray, what promise did God break?Then God broke His promises
Then the God of the Bible is lie
then it doesn’t matter
conversely:
If the God of the Bible is true
and it is impossible to break His promises:
Then I bet my eternal life that I am saved
Nope:Quoting Saint Augustine seems appropriate:
God has made such promises before. To Israel. To the kings of Israel. The flip side is what happens when they don’t keep the covenant he makes with them. The land is lost. The people exiled. The royal line shattered. You are only approaching Ezekiel from one angle. God does not break his promises. He keeps them. But you are limiting yourself to one extremely literal reading of his promise. God does not do violence to our will. He seeks our cooperation with his grace throughout our lives.yep
Ezekiel 36
25"Then** I will** sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean;** I will** cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover,** I will** give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
God doesn’t break a promise:If you stray, what promise did God break?
I disagree with nearly everything you just said:God has made such promises before. To Israel. To the kings of Israel. The flip side is what happens when they don’t keep the covenant he makes with them. The land is lost. The people exiled. The royal line shattered. You are only approaching Ezekiel from one angle. God does not break his promises. He keeps them. But you are limiting yourself to one extremely literal reading of his promise. God does not do violence to our will. He seeks our cooperation with his grace throughout our lives.
Peter 2God doesn’t break a promise:
If I stray ; He will discipline me , correct me, and get me back on the path.
Hebrews 12 ““My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you. 6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son.” 7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?…”
Hmmm. Peter says they escaped the defilement (they were saved) of the world, and they turned back.For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation,** yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. “**
Ok, so we agree. The elect are the ones who add to their faith, the virtues St Peter mentions.yep, every one of those that are saved in the end (Have eternal life) are the elect
and everyone of the elect are those that are saved at the end.(Have eternal life).
Peter was addressing the elect
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Eternal is not temporary:
If you have it; it doesn’t end
so I ask you; do you know that you have eternal life?
I do
In Acts 8:13 we are told that Simon the Magi believes and is baptized. At this point he has the assuredness of salvation, in your paradigm.God doesn’t break a promise:
If I stray ; He will discipline me , correct me, and get me back on the path.
Hebrews 12 ““My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you. 6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son.” 7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?…”
When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. **Perhaps he will forgive you **for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
So Simon believes, is baptized, and is assured. Yet Peter says perhaps the Lord will forgive.Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
God doesn’t break a promise:
If I stray ; He will discipline me , correct me, and get me back on the path.
So God is talking to people who are “My son”.Hebrews 12 ““My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you. 6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son.” 7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?…”
I don’t get to OSAS from that verse: there are plenty of other verses for that.Alwayswill. You said. . .
So God is talking to people who are “My son”.
God says He will “discipline” them as you pointed out correctly.
But then you seem to jump to a once saved always saved conclusion for these sons and daughters.
But WHY do you think your quote means once you are a son (daughter) of God, that you do not ALSO have the free will to reject salvation?
How did you get to OSAS from being a “son” from the above verses?
I and most evangelicals consider Simon as the first named false-profession of faith mentioned in the BibleIn Acts 8:13 we are told that Simon the Magi believes and is baptized. At this point he has the assuredness of salvation, in your paradigm.
But in Acts 8:18-24 we see this:So Simon believes, is baptized, and is assured. Yet Peter says perhaps the Lord will forgive.
Two things are clear here. You can fall away, and you may not get back on the path.
I wish that were true. But years ago I heard someone on Moody radio claim that since polls showed that most Americans believed Jesus to be the Son of God, this meant that most Americans were born-again believers. (He cited Romans 10:9-10)I and most evangelicals consider Simon as the first named false-profession of faith mentioned in the Bible
No Sola Fide proclaiming Christian thinks mere mental assent saves.
It is obvious Simon was not ever indwelt with the Holy Spirit, he was not in Christ or Christ in him.
It’s not obvious at all, unless you come to the text assuming eternal security.and BTW it also disproves the salfivic effect of Baptism
An inspired writer (Luke), said Simon believed, no qualifications, If it was a false assent, why does not Luke tell us this later?I and most evangelicals consider Simon as the first named false-profession of faith mentioned in the Bible
No Sola Fide proclaiming Christian thinks mere mental assent saves.
It is obvious Simon was not ever indwelt with the Holy Spirit, he was not in Christ or Christ in him.
The Vine and the Branches.
Jesus says right here that you can be in Him and walk away. He is pleading that you remain in Him. Why, if there is no chance that you can walk away? You can only remain somewhere, if you are already there.1* “I am the true vine,* and my Father is the vine grower.a 2He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and every one that does he prunes* so that it bears more fruit. 3You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.b 4Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. 6* c Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.d 8By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.e 9As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.f 10If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.g
Not at all. It proves we can be regenerated, and go back, because we have free will. Again look at the passage I posted from St. Peter, where he quite clearly says you can escape the defilements of this world, which is being saved, and fall back to reprobate.and BTW it also disproves the salfivic effect of Baptism
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, “faith,” derived from 3982 /peíthō, “persuade, be persuaded”) – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō (“believe”) is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God’s inbirthing of faith.An inspired writer (Luke), said Simon believed, no qualifications, If it was a false assent, why does not Luke tell us this later?
.
The life changing event is that he believed, and was baptized. That was life changing. That is evidence. The fact that he fell, shows that we can be in Jesus, and be tempted, and fall back. Peter and Jesus make this clear, in both passages that I posted.4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, “faith,” derived from 3982 /peíthō, “persuade, be persuaded”) – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō (“believe”) is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God’s inbirthing of faith.
As he showed no evidence of a life changing event : the context is human believing
That’s a good point, which I had forgotten!An inspired writer (Luke), said Simon believed, no qualifications