St Augustine on Salvation By Faith Alone

[Porknpie]

I don’t get to OSAS from that verse: there are plenty of other verses for that.
That verse was in response to what happens if I stray…
I am prone to wander: that doesn’t mean I lost my salvation

re: free will

the short answer is that God changes my will/ my desires to line up with His.
I have a new heart, the old is gone.

Always, what is your interpretation of the parable of the vine?

Branches… who are believers as they are attached to the vine, can be cutoff, gathered and thrown into the fire.

How does this fit with once saved, always saved?

Keep in mind St. Paul’s words in this passage. Again, he is speaking to believers, and stating that some have fallen.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; **otherwise **you too will be cut off. (Rom 11)

 

[rcwitness]

That’s a good point, which I had forgotten!

Yes, and I already raised this point to alwayswill in another thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14297000&postcount=81

The bottom line, is that Peter uses the term faith, as insufficient in itself to grow in Godliness and avoid being “ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ”. And without “adding” these virtues to their faith are “blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins”.

Even if he is talking to the elect, it doesn’t sound like they are immune to this fate.

 

[alwayswill]

Yes, and I already raised this point to alwayswill in another thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14297000&postcount=81

The bottom line, is that Peter uses the term faith, as insufficient in itself to grow in Godliness and avoid being “ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ”. And without “adding” these virtues to their faith are “blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins”.

Even if he is talking to the elect, it doesn’t sound like they are immune to this fate.

I don’t know how to address your point
if you start with the presupposition that the elect can actually lose their salvation

then… i don’t know what else to say

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t know how to address your point
if you start with the presupposition that the elect can actually lose their salvation

then… i don’t know what else to say

The elect seems to be those who add to their faith the virtues that Peter listed if not, then they aren’t the elect, but fruitless, blind, men who had forgotten that Christ forgave them.

 

[alwayswill]

The elect seems to be those who add to their faith the virtues that Peter listed if not, then they aren’t the elect, but fruitless, blind, men who had forgotten that Christ forgave them.

and this never happens either?

1 Peter 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4** and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade**. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 **who through faith are shielded by God’s power **until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed

Ephesians 1
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 **who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance **until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[Duane1966]

I don’t know how to address your point
if you start with the presupposition that the elect can actually lose their salvation

then… i don’t know what else to say

We are not saying the elect can lose their salvation. What we are saying is that no one really knows who is among the elect, except God, which is something that Calvin, one of the founders of the doctrine of Assurance of Salvation, admitted.

Now you have said you are one of the elect. Which means you know you will persevere to the end. Which means you are omniscient. Charles Templeton was a famous televangelist and a friend of Billy Graham’s. He said the exact same thing as you. He knew he was elect, because he knew he would persevere to the end. But in 1957 he left the ministry and wrote a book called Farewell to God. Most people think he died an atheist. If he was not saved, what good did his certainty of his election do him? You say Simon in Acts was a false belief. Did he know it was false? The bible never says that.

 

[rcwitness]

and this never happens either?

1 Peter 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4** and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade**. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 **who through faith are shielded by God’s power **until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed

Here, it says salvation is coming at the end of time. And yes, through faith we are kept in God. It does not say faith alone, as in apart from the virtues that accompany faith. Peter, Paul John and James all Teach faith is the way. But they all, in their own way, also teach that faith apart from suffering, and Charity, and love, etc. is no longer profitable, or fruitful. It’s not faith’s fault, but the person who is content with initiation into the covenant, and then does not let God work through him.

Ephesians 1
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 **who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance **until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Yes, this says “Who” is our gaurantee. Jesus. But we are not guaranteed to be faithful to him. It is our duty to remain in Him.

I don’t want you to think I am casting faith, or grace aside. Only point out that many times (probably the majority), faith is used in a context apart from its predecessing virtues and fruit. Why can’t you see that that is what the Church means and understands, when she says faith and works justify? Not works, but faith and that faith’s fruit. Then, the salvation that is coming at the end times will be given.

So, there is salvation, here and now, into the covenant and there is salvation to those who have endured and “kept the faith” unto works of righteousness. We were not saved because of righteousness, but saved and then able to work righteousness.

Some are saved, in this initial justification, but when trials and wordy pleasure come, do not remain in Him. Some are saved, and continue to show themselves justified, because they follow the one who is the guarantee of our justification.

 

[alwayswill]

We are not saying the elect can lose their salvation. What we are saying is that no one really knows who is among the elect, except God, which is something that Calvin, one of the founders of the doctrine of Assurance of Salvation, admitted.

Now you have said you are one of the elect. Which means you know you will persevere to the end. Which means you are omniscient. Charles Templeton was a famous televangelist and a friend of Billy Graham’s. He said the exact same thing as you. He knew he was elect, because he knew he would persevere to the end. But in 1957 he left the ministry and wrote a book called Farewell to God. Most people think he died an atheist. If he was not saved, what good did his certainty of his election do him? You say Simon in Acts was a false belief. Did he know it was false? The bible never says that.

no; it doesn’t mean I’m omniscient:
it means I am as sure as any fallible human can be about anything: including the sun coming up tomorrow.

Here are the questions that determine everything else.
**
Question 1: Does God want those who have eternal life to know they have eternal life?**

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Question 2: does God want those who are elect to confirm their election?

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election

Mu answer is " yes"
what is your answer?

 

[rcwitness]

Here are the questions that determines everything else.
**
Question 1: Does God want those who have eternal life to know they have eternal life?**

Of course! And how can we know it? By keeping His commands now, AND to the end.

Question 2: does God want those who are elect to confirm their election?

Yes. And how does Peter say that we do that? By ADDING to faith, the virtues he listed.

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus said if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

it is hard to imagine being saved if we do not love Jesus.

 

[alwayswill]

Of course! And how can we know it? By keeping His commands now, AND to the end.

Yes. And how does Peter say that we do that? By ADDING to faith, the virtues he listed.

yes , but keeping commandment does not cause salvation: it is proof of a saving faith:
adding virtue to a saving faith does not cause salvation: it is proof of a saving faith:

re: faith alone:
there are only two choices:

Someone is saved by faith alone or someone saved by faith plus something else.
which is it?

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
As soon as justification is fused with sanctification, works of righteousness become an essential part of the process. Faith is thus diluted with works. Sola fide is abandoned. This was the error of the Galatian legalists (cf. Galatians 2:16; 5:4). Paul called it “a different gospel” (Gal. 1:6, 9).
Galatians 2:16
16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 5:4
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 1:6
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—

Galatians 1:9
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Acts 16:31
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved”

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Colossians 2:13-14
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Philippians 3:9
8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith

Titus 3:4-5
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 **he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, **but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

 

[rcwitness]

yes , but keeping commandment does not cause salvation: it is proof of a saving faith:
adding virtue to a saving faith does not cause salvation: it is proof of a saving faith:

re: faith alone:
there are only two choices:

Someone is saved by faith alone or someone saved by faith plus something else.
which is it?

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
As soon as justification is fused with sanctification, works of righteousness become an essential part of the process. Faith is thus diluted with works. Sola fide is abandoned. This was the error of the Galatian legalists (cf. Galatians 2:16; 5:4). Paul called it “a different gospel” (Gal. 1:6, 9).
Galatians 2:16
16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 5:4
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 1:6
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—

Galatians 1:9
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Acts 16:31
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved”

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Colossians 2:13-14
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Philippians 3:9
8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith

Titus 3:4-5
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 **he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, **but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Oh, ok, so now we are asking what causes salvation. You tell me, what causes our salvation?

 

[alwayswill]

Oh, ok, so now we are asking what causes salvation. You tell me, what causes our salvation?

Ultimately God; by giving us the unmerited favor (aka gift; aka grace) of a saving faith PRIOR to any meritorious work.

The cause is ALL God:

---

How did you come to be a Christian?
I sought the Lord.
But how did you come to seek the Lord?

The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him.

I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself,
How came I to pray?

I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures.

How came I to read the Scriptures?

I did read them, but what led me to do so?

Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."

—C. H. Spurgeon

 

[Wesrock]

yes , but keeping commandment does not cause salvation: it is proof of a saving faith:
adding virtue to a saving faith does not cause salvation: it is proof of a saving faith:

re: faith alone:
there are only two choices:

Someone is saved by faith alone or someone saved by faith plus something else.
which is it?

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
As soon as justification is fused with sanctification, works of righteousness become an essential part of the process. Faith is thus diluted with works. Sola fide is abandoned. This was the error of the Galatian legalists (cf. Galatians 2:16; 5:4). Paul called it “a different gospel” (Gal. 1:6, 9).
Galatians 2:16
16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 5:4
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 1:6
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—

Galatians 1:9
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Acts 16:31
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved”

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Colossians 2:13-14
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Philippians 3:9
8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith

Titus 3:4-5
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 **he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, **but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Do you think any of those quotes contradict Catholic teaching on Justification? If so, please explain.

 

[Wesrock]

Ultimately God; by giving us the unmerited favor (aka gift; aka grace) of a saving faith PRIOR to any meritorious work.

Of course. But God asks us to be open to it. And we can discard it.

 

[Wesrock]

To say otherwise seems to suggest that God operates with violence over our will.

 

[alwayswill]

Of course. But God asks us to be open to it. And we can discard it.

once accepted: it cannot be discarded
the old is gone: it does not come back.
NEVER will the old return

An inheritance guarded by the POWER of God

1 Peter 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed

An inheritance sealed by the Holy Spirit Himslef

Ephesians 1
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[rcwitness]

Ultimately God; by giving us the unmerited favor (aka gift; aka grace) of a saving faith PRIOR to any meritorious work.

The cause is ALL God:

---

How did you come to be a Christian?
I sought the Lord.
But how did you come to seek the Lord?

The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him.

I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself,
How came I to pray?

I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures.

How came I to read the Scriptures?

I did read them, but what led me to do so?

Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."

—C. H. Spurgeon

Yes, God. And we heard how He accomplished it in the Gospel, whether by Sacrament word or book. And those who believe, are initiated through Baptism and belief. Then, those who endure, have grown in the love of God and neighbor.

Faith is in and behind and along all of this, but not alone.

 

[alwayswill]

To say otherwise seems to suggest that God operates with violence over our will.

I reject that terminology.

God changing my will is an act of love , not violence.

I thank God for making me love Him : because I would not have chose to on my own…

 

[alwayswill]

Yes, God. And we heard how He accomplished it in the Gospel, whether by Sacrament word or book. And those who believe, are initiated through Baptism and belief. Then, those who endure, have grown in the love of God and neighbor.

Faith is in and behind and along all of this, but not alone.

So then; is your answer to my previous question;

"Someone is saved by faith alone or someone saved by faith plus something else.
which is it?

Someone is saved by faith plus something else?