St. Catharine of Siena: A Calvinist?

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I would like your thoughts on this from the “Dialog” allegedly between God the Father and St. Catherine of Siena:

“For to Me, they ought to render love and to themselves, bitterness… And they do the contrary… Wherefore… they are punished… by My ministering devils whom My judgement has appointed to torment those who have done evil… The Devil… is the instrument of My Justice to torment the souls who have miserably offended Me. And I have set him in this life to tempt and molest My creatures, not for My creatures to be conquered, but that they may conquer, proving their virtue, and receive from Me the glory of victory.”

A friend has proposed that this statement is Calvinistic, therefore heretical. Would you agree?
 
I would first of all ask in what way specifically is it Calvinistic? … for those of us unfamiliar with the teachings of Calvin. Furthermore, it appears to be based on the first two chapters of Job, and so is not necessarily heretical.
 
From Calvin:

“From other passages, in which God is said to draw or bend Satan himself, and all the reprobate, to his will, a more difficult question arises. For the carnal mind can scarcely comprehend how, when acting by their means, he contracts no taint from their impurity, nay, how, in a common operation, he is exempt from all guilt, and can justly condemn his own ministers. Hence a distinction has been invented between doing and permitting because to many it seemed altogether inexplicable how Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. The modesty of those who are thus alarmed at the appearance of absurdity might perhaps be excused, did they not endeavour to vindicate the justice of God from every semblance of stigma by defending an untruth. It seems absurd that man should be*blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness. Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God.”
 
The implication is that God does not merely permits, but actively wills that Satan and his hellish host “molest” the reprobate.
 
The whole meaning doesn’t hinge on the word appointed. Substitute the word permit and move on with life.

It’s the writing of a mystic. It isn’t meant to be parsed word for word like court testimony.

-Tim-
 
But, that is NOT what she wrote. Also, she claims these are to words of God, not merely her private opinion.
 
Tolkien13 said:
I would like your thoughts on this from the “Dialog” allegedly between God the Father and St. Catherine of Siena:

“For to Me, they ought to render love and to themselves, bitterness… And they do the contrary… Wherefore… they are punished… by My ministering devils whom My judgement has appointed to torment those who have done evil… The Devil… is the instrument of My Justice to torment the souls who have miserably offended Me. And I have set him in this life to tempt and molest My creatures, not for My creatures to be conquered, but that they may conquer, proving their virtue, and receive from Me the glory of victory.”

A friend has proposed that this statement is Calvinistic, therefore heretical. Would you agree?
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  1. Catherine predated Calvin by several centuries
  2. That is not Calvinism.
  3. That is not heretical.
 
  1. That is obvious. This does not effect the problems with her point.
  2. Calvin would disagree, as the quote I presented indicates.
  3. So you believe God actively appoints Satan to lead us into temptation through molestations, and then to meet out torments to those who give in? In other words, God is actively responsible for the temptations the Devil “molests” us with (contradicting James 1:13-14)?
 
Tolkien13 said:
I would like your thoughts on this from the “Dialog” allegedly between God the Father and St. Catherine of Siena:

“For to Me, they ought to render love and to themselves, bitterness… And they do the contrary… Wherefore… they are punished… by My ministering devils whom My judgement has appointed to torment those who have done evil… The Devil… is the instrument of My Justice to torment the souls who have miserably offended Me. And I have set him in this life to tempt and molest My creatures, not for My creatures to be conquered, but that they may conquer, proving their virtue, and receive from Me the glory of victory.”

A friend has proposed that this statement is Calvinistic, therefore heretical. Would you agree?
Click to expand...
Calvin is saying that God blinds a person and then sends the devil to do his dirty work on them, and this is not only permitted by God but it can only be said that it is the will of God. So Calvin is deducing that the man is predestined to hell in this way by God.

St. Catherine is not saying this. She is saying that a man may be tormented by the devil so that a man may prove his loyality and love for God and that this is something good. She isn’t saying that God torments a man by the devil to send him to hell.
 
Tolkien13 said:
  1. That is obvious. This does not effect the problems with her point.
  2. Calvin would disagree, as the quote I presented indicates.
  3. So you believe God actively appoints Satan to lead us into temptation through molestations, and then to meet out torments to those who give in? In other words, God is actively responsible for the temptations the Devil “molests” us with (contradicting James 1:13-14)?
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From you rfirst post, you quoted, she states that the devil is an instrument to punish those that are evil or not following God. This has nothing to do with Calvin at all. I think what she is stating that when we don’t follow God, we are opening ourselves up to Satan. I think you are misreading what she wrote as well as the language style of that time.
 
Heck no, Catherine of Siena is a doctor of the Church , one of only 33 and she’s one of my favorite saints.

This is 101% orthodox.
 
Tolkien13 said:
How does her being your “favourite saint” make her infallible?
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It doesn’t, but you should read what a doctor of the church is. And she is also a canonized saint.

***The title “Doctor of the Church,” unlike the popular title “Father of the Church,” is an official designation that is bestowed by the Pope in recognition of the outstanding contribution a person has made to the understanding and interpretation of the sacred Scriptures and the development of Christian doctrine. ***

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/128/doctors_of_the_church.html
 
JamalChristophr said:
It doesn’t, but you should read what a doctor of the church is. And she is also a canonized saint.

***The title “Doctor of the Church,” unlike the popular title “Father of the Church,” is an official designation that is bestowed by the Pope in recognition of the outstanding contribution a person has made to the understanding and interpretation of the sacred Scriptures and the development of Christian doctrine. ***

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/128/doctors_of_the_church.html
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For someone to be canonised does not indicate that everything they wrote was wholly orthodox. Instead of appealing to “Welp, she’s a saint!”, perhaps you should attempt actual impartial, intelligent and theological dialogue.
 
Tolkien13 said:
The implication is that God does not merely permits, but actively wills that Satan and his hellish host “molest” the reprobate.
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I dare say the devil molests all men, saints included. Saints prove their virtue and love for God by enduring it.

St John Vianney is the first of these saints that comes to my mind.
 
Ok, but the onus is on you then. Tell me how what she wrote is in contradiction to Catholic Chruch teaching. I’m not interested in how it’s similar to Calvin.

Besides that, you did not even ackowledge what it means to be a doctor of the church which contraindicates that real dialogue is taking place and I’m not here for argument.
 
JamalChristophr said:
I dare say the devil molests all men, saints included. Saints prove their virtue and love for God by enduring it.

St John Vianney is the first of these saints that comes to my mind.
Click to expand...
Surely: but does God actively will and ordain him doing this, as St. Catherine appears to posit?
 
Tolkien13 said:
Surely: but does God actively will and ordain him doing this, as St. Catherine appears to posit?
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He permitted it with Job, and I would say that he permits it so to with us in his Divine Providence. God’s Will is two fold: 1) His Ordaining Will and 2) His Permissive Will.

Something is revealed when a thing is subjected to fire. Having to suffer is a transient condition that all men- good and bad- pass through. It doesn’t have to harm him in any permanent way once it is over.

There’s a saying:

The same sun that melts the wax can harden clay
And the same rain that drowns the rat will grow the hay
 
JamalChristophr said:
He permitted it with Job, and I would say that he permits it so to with us in his Divine Providence. God’s Will is two fold: 1) His Ordaining Will and 2) His Permissive Will.

Something is revealed when a thing is subjected to fire. Have to suffer is a transient condition that all men- good and bad- pass through. It doesn’t have to harm him in any permanent way once it is over.

There’s a saying:

The same sun that melts the wax can harden clay
And the same rain that drowns the rat will grow the hay
Click to expand...
Again, you are correct. HOWEVER, this is not what St. Catherine appears to say. She says that God “appoints”, not “permits” Satan to molest us.
 
Tolkien13 said:
Again, you are correct. HOWEVER, this is not what St. Catherine appears to say. She says that God “appoints”, not “permits” Satan to molest us.
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To me, it’s just semantics. If you want to trouble yourself over it, that is your prerogative. I believe it is true that God has bent the devils to His Will although they don’t realize it perhaps. In seeking to do evil, they bring about good in some mysterious way. I don’t want to get to convoluted here lest I fall into heresy, but Saint Paul says that:

*We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

29For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.v

30And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

31What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?**
 
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