St. Catharine of Siena: A Calvinist?

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JamalChristophr said:
To me, it’s just semantics. If you want to trouble yourself over it, that is your prerogative. I believe it is true that God has bent the devils to His Will although they don’t realize it perhaps. In seeking to do evil, they bring about good in some mysterious way. I don’t want to get to convoluted here lest I fall into heresy, but Saint Paul says that:

We know that all things work for good for those who love God,* who are called according to his purpose.

29For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.v

30And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

31What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
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This is not semantics! It’s the difference between heterodoxy and orthodoxy: Either God permits evil, or He actively wills and appoints it. St. Catherine appears to posit the latter.
 
Tolkien13 said:
This is not semantics! It’s the difference between heterodoxy and orthodoxy: Either God permits evil, or He actively wills and appoints it. St. Catherine appears to posit the latter.
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I don’t really have a clear answer for you, perhaps, except for the key phrase in your sentence: appears to

It’s good enough for me to know that theologians have went over her writings with a fine tooth comb. And this is a necessary process for all Doctors of the Church to be named before they are so honored with this title. I trust the Church, to put it simply, and I don’t know why you would not, too.

Another thing is that Catherine was writing in the 14th century and the way language is employed now is slighty divergent from the way people spoke then. So I maintain that there is some linguistic lee way in her statements as far as strict interpretation goes.

I’m not a theologian other than a weekend warrior or amateur if you will. Maybe you should find a scholarly dominican to butt heads with. 😛

Additionally, I’m thinking the original manuscript is in Italian, so that would be worth checking into as well.
 
fred_conty said:
St. Catherine is not saying this. She is saying that a man may be tormented by the devil so that a man may prove his loyality and love for God and that this is something good. She isn’t saying that God torments a man by the devil to send him to hell.
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👍

“Not that my creatures may be conquered, but that they may conquer…” It’s like God is the Good Parent who wants you to be all you can be. Not a spoiled brat that thinks the world owes you a living. HE knows just what you need in every situation to bring you along to the heights you were created for…

And I like the part that she was born before Calvin, so she can’t be a calvinist… (I remember I read that in one of the answers…) Makes sense to me…
 
Tolkien13 said:
This is not semantics! It’s the difference between heterodoxy and orthodoxy: Either God permits evil, or He actively wills and appoints it. St. Catherine appears to posit the latter.
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First, I would suggest that St Catherine did not write modern-day English, so the meaning of the word may have been different, and second, God will allow people to fall into temptation to alert them to their pridefulness, so it makes sense that God would sometimes appoint demons to do this.
 
Tolkien13 said:
Again, you are correct. HOWEVER, this is not what St. Catherine appears to say. She says that God “appoints”, not “permits” Satan to molest us.
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Your passage in context
ccel.org/ccel/catherine/dialog.iv.iii.xxvii.html

Further explanation

ccel.org/ccel/catherine/dialog.iv.iii.xxix.html
" They bear everything with reverence, deeming themselves favored in having tribulation for My sake, and they desire nothing but what I desire. If I allow the Devil to trouble them, permitting temptations to prove them in virtue, as I told you above, they resist with their will fortified in Me, humiliating themselves, and deeming themselves unworthy of peace and quiet of mind and deserving of pain, and so they proceed with cheerfulness and self-knowledge, without painful affliction. "

Catherine s dialogues are worth reading. All of them ,so as to better understand the message.
ccel.org/ccel/catherine/dialog.toc.html
God bless
 
Further explanation
catholictreasury.info/books/dialogue/diag40.php

“They bear everything with reverence, deeming themselves favored in having tribulation for My sake, and they desire nothing but what I desire. If I allow the Devil to trouble them, permitting temptations to prove them in virtue, as I told you above, they resist with their will fortified in Me, humiliating themselves, and deeming themselves unworthy of peace and quiet of mind and deserving of pain, and so they proceed with cheerfulness and self-knowledge, without painful affliction.”

The Dialogue

catholictreasury.info/books/dialogue/index.php

God bless
 
Tolkien13 said:
I would like your thoughts on this from the “Dialog” allegedly between God the Father and St. Catherine of Siena:

“For to Me, they ought to render love and to themselves, bitterness… And they do the contrary… Wherefore… they are punished… by My ministering devils whom My judgement has appointed to torment those who have done evil… The Devil… is the instrument of My Justice to torment the souls who have miserably offended Me. And I have set him in this life to tempt and molest My creatures, not for My creatures to be conquered, but that they may conquer, proving their virtue, and receive from Me the glory of victory.”

A friend has proposed that this statement is Calvinistic, therefore heretical. Would you agree?
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Tolkien,these phrases are out of context.

Some refer to those who have depreciated God’s mercy…
catholictreasury.info/books/dialogue/diag32.php

I suggest you read it all. I have posted The Dialogue.
God bless
 
graciew said:
Further explanation
catholictreasury.info/books/dialogue/diag40.php

“They bear everything with reverence, deeming themselves favored in having tribulation for My sake, and they desire nothing but what I desire. If I allow the Devil to trouble them, permitting temptations to prove them in virtue, as I told you above, they resist with their will fortified in Me, humiliating themselves, and deeming themselves unworthy of peace and quiet of mind and deserving of pain, and so they proceed with cheerfulness and self-knowledge, without painful affliction.”

The Dialogue
👍

catholictreasury.info/books/dialogue/index.php

God bless
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You are all missing the point!

Does it not seem odd that she appears to say that God actively appoints, and not merely permits, Satan and his devils to “molest” (as she says later in the Dialogue), and in effect, lead people into temptations (contradicting James i. 13, 14), making God the author of evil? This teaching is suspiciously close to what John Calvin would later say. I have asked Dave Armstrong (!), and others, for an answer to this and have yet to receive one. I must point out, that I do not wish to anathematise St. Catherine, because I honestly hope I am misreading her. I just have not been given a good reason to believe that is the case. I came here hoping for impartial and informed theological discussion, but have yet to see it.

Also, the fact that she is a Saint does not imply that her private revelation were true, or entirely orthodox, but that she was a woman of “heroic virtue”, which I do not doubt.
 
You are all missing the point!

Does it not seem odd that she appears to say that God actively appoints, and not merely permits, Satan and his devils to “molest” (as she says later in the Dialogue), and in effect, lead people into temptations (contradicting James i. 13, 14), making God the author of evil? This teaching is suspiciously close to what John Calvin would later say. I have asked Dave Armstrong (!), and others, for an answer to this and have yet to receive one. I must point out, that I do not wish to anathematise St. Catherine, because I honestly hope I am misreading her. I just have not been given a good reason to believe that is the case. I came here hoping for impartial and informed theological discussion, but have yet to see it.

Also, the fact that she is a Saint does not imply that her private revelation were true, or entirely orthodox, but that she was a woman of “heroic virtue”, which I do not doubt.
 
I did indeed answer “Tolkien” after he pestered me about eight times: approximately 43 minutes after his post above. I wrote in a thread where he was taking about this:
God often says in Scripture, “I hardened the heart” of so-and-so, and then in other places we see that the person hardened their own heart. I’ve written a lot about it. It is a pungent way of expressing God’s providence, without denying human free will. Common in the Bible . . .
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If St. Catherine had taught heresy about hell, she never would have been proclaimed a Doctor of the Church. This is why Origen was not even proclaimed a saint, because of his heresy of universalism.
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Then I added in a PM:
I don’t see any Calvinism in the quote.
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[This is] not odd at all. See various papers of mine about predestination and God “hardening hearts” on my Salvation and Justification web page.
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I’m delighted to see that “Tolkien” has finally come to Catholic Answers to seek answers for his numerous questions. He’s been coming to me over and over, and I keep saying, “I can’t make a living by answering questions” and recommending CA (where folks do make a living answering theological questions).

I have a wife and four children to support. If I sat and answered questions in PMs all day long, that support would quickly dry up. I have to live in the real world, where bills gotta be paid. My income is derived from book and articles royalties, and generous donations.
 
DaveArmstrong said:
I’m delighted to see that “Tolkien” has finally come to Catholic Answers to seek answers for his numerous questions. He’s been coming to me over and over, and I keep saying, “I can’t make a living by answering questions” and recommending CA (where folks do make a living answering theological questions).
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It appears that He won’t take the truth for an answer. Catherine of Sienna was neither a Calvinist nor a heretic.
 
Ignatius said:
It appears that He won’t take the truth for an answer. Catherine of Sienna was neither a Calvinist nor a heretic.
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I haven’t received any straight answers, not to mention “the truth”.
 
I don’t appreciate the hostility I have received from both Dave and the people on this thread. Despite what you insist, none of you have given me any straight answers. I
I am NOT attempting to defame St. Catherine, I have NO intention of this. I asked a question, that’s all.
 
Tolkien13 said:
I haven’t received any straight answers, not to mention “the truth”.
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graciew supplied the answer that should take you deeper in your own research. To the original language which was translated.
One word as to the translation. I have almost always followed the text of Gigli, a learned Siennese ecclesiastic, who edited the complete works of St. Catherine in the last century. His is the latest edition printed of the Dialogo. Once or twice I have preferred the cinquecento Venetian editor. My aim has been to translate as literally as possible, and at the same time to preserve the characteristic rhythm of the sentences, so suggestive in its way of the sing-song articulation of the Siennese of today.
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St. Catherine has no style as such; she introduces a metaphor and forgets it; the sea, a vine, and a plough will often appear in the same sentence, sometimes in the same phrase. In such cases I have occasionally taken the liberty of adhering to the first simile when the confusion of metaphor in the original involves hopeless obscurity of expression.
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VIAREGGIO, September 1906-Catholic Treasury
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graciew said:
:confused: I thought it was you who were interested
I read it all already…
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Yes, but there are abridged and unabridged editions. I have used the unabridged version fron the Fish Eaters website, and have found that your citations check out.
 
DaveArmstrong said:
I’m delighted to see that “Tolkien” has finally come to Catholic Answers to seek answers for his numerous questions. He’s been coming to me over and over, and I keep saying, “I can’t make a living by answering questions” and recommending CA (where folks do make a living answering theological questions).

I have a wife and four children to support. If I sat and answered questions in PMs all day long, that support would quickly dry up. I have to live in the real world, where bills gotta be paid. My income is derived from book and articles royalties, and generous donations.
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I don’t feel I have “pestered” you with anything. As you yourself said, you need to “make a living”, which you do through apologetics. The reason I pushed this particular subject is that you have a knack of proving Protestants wrong, and one of the most erroneous claims of the Protestants are that their ideas are traditional, and specifically misconstruing the Scholastics. I thought if you perhaps wrote an article showing that what St. Catherine says cannot be used in promoting Calvinism, it would in fact help you make a living and add to your corpus. I was seeking charity, but I received hostility. I have no intention of asking you never ending questions, and have not done so.
 
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