St. Clement of Alexandria

[myfavoritmartin]

No problem Simon.
1st Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

1st Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Hey my brother, I was speaking to the words quoted by Clement… Not scripture. Scripture is whole different argument, I tend not to argue real presence across the forums as people are quite passionate in their POV’s and I don’t see it having a bearing on salvation.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

No problem Simon.

This appears to be an admission to my denseness…

 

[Church_Militant]

Hey my brother, I was speaking to the words quoted by Clement… Not scripture. Scripture is whole different argument, I tend not to argue real presence across the forums as people are quite passionate in their POV’s and I don’t see it having a bearing on salvation.

But either way, this is precisely what you are dealing with.

Since you esteem the Word of God so highly, why don’t you exhaust that avenue of study before trying to sort out the ECF like St. Clement.

This thread is still available to us.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

But either way, this is precisely what you are dealing with.

Since you esteem the Word of God so highly, why don’t you exhaust that avenue of study before trying to sort out the ECF like St. Clement.

This thread is still available to us.

I love to debate this, just ask Randy Carson. We went through this off-line. I can not speak what I really believe regarding this issue on the Catholic forum…It would NOT be charitable and I would most likely get infractions or get banned.
SO, I’ll let ya’ll be with your POV, after all I grew up LCMS which isn’t to different than Catholic, it’s not like I don’t understand the draw man has toward this belief, but scripture as a whole doesn’t support it.

 

[Ilroy]

Maybe I am dense, could you please point it out to me…

This is also from The Instructor 2:2
And the mixture of both—of the water and of the Word—is called Eucharist

 

[myfavoritmartin]

This is also from The Instructor 2:2
And the mixture of both—of the water and of the Word—is called Eucharist

Eucharist = Thanksgiving,
Not Body and blood.

And the mixture of both—of the water and of the Word—is called THANKSGIVING…

 

[vz71]

So, although you may find writings like Simon presented from St. Clement, you’ll find overwhelming evidence that the Church taught the Real Presence from the word “Go”.

Correct, and the debate I am in is centering around John 6.
But I am now catching static from a quote I made from Clement early on concerning the beliefs of the Early Chruch.

 

[NotWorthy]

For context.
Continues on as such…
For the divine mixture, man, the Father’s will 243has mystically compounded by the Spirit and the Word. For, in truth, the spirit is joined to the soul, which is inspired by it; and the flesh, by reason of which the Word became flesh, to the Word.

And this proves what?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Correct, and the debate I am in is centering around John 6.
But I am now catching static from a quote I made from Clement early on concerning the beliefs of the Early Chruch.

FWIW not long ago a antagonist on here, whom shall remain nameless , showed that their are hundreds of ECF writings that contradict Catholic Dogma…You should be very careful quoting snippets picked up from biased web pages.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

And this proves what?

John.
It proves by context that the preceding quote has zero to do with real presence, as was being alleged.
S

 

[NotWorthy]

John.
It proves by context that the preceding quote has zero to do with real presence, as was being alleged.
S

OK, Simon, you’re going to have to type slow (cause I read slow) and use small words on this one.

 

[vz71]

Thanks for all of the assistance guys.
I believe there is enough here to place the argument back on track (on the Real Presence).

I will write in for more assistance as needed.
Again, thanks all.

 

[vz71]

FWIW not long ago a antagonist on here, whom shall remain nameless , showed that their are hundreds of ECF writings that contradict Catholic Dogma…You should be very careful quoting snippets picked up from biased web pages.

Didn’t just pick a snippet, I read the quotes fairly carefully, and read source material as well.
I just was not expecting someone to proof text one of the Early Church Fathers.

Generally, my fundamentalist friends shy away from the Church Fathers. Kudos to the new approach. It threw me for a loop.

 

[mark_a]

I’d say not because in …(The Instructor, 2:2)
He makes reference to Jesus drinking wine at the Last Supper, citing Matthew 26:29, and he refers to the Last Supper as how we should act while having wine
“In what manner do you think the Lord drank when He became man for our sakes? As shamelessly as we? Was it not with decorum and propriety? Was it not deliberately? For rest assured, He Himself also partook of wine; for He, too, was man. And He blessed the wine, saying, ‘Take, drink: this is my blood’–the blood of the vine. He figuratively calls the Word ‘shed for many, for the remission of sins’–the holy stream of gladness. And that he who drinks ought to observe moderation, He clearly showed by what He taught at feasts. For He did not teach affected by wine. And that it was wine which was the thing blessed, He showed again, when He said to His disciples, ‘I will not drink of the fruit of this vine, till I drink it with you in the kingdom of my Father.’ But that it was wine which was drunk by the Lord, He tells us again, when He spake concerning Himself, reproaching the Jews for their hardness of heart: ‘For the Son of man,’ He says, ‘came, and they say, Behold a glutton and a wine-bibber, a friend of publicans.’” Clement of Alexandria

This seems to clarify things a bit further, in regards to John 6…

Clement of Alexandria
“Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: ‘Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood,’ **describing distinctly by metaphor **the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,–of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood. For in reality the blood of faith is hope, in which faith is held as by a vital principle.”
(The Instructor, 1:6)

SO NO! He didn’t!

Proof-texting the bible ain’t enough for some. . . . .

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Didn’t just pick a snippet, I read the quotes fairly carefully, and read source material as well.
I just was not expecting someone to proof text one of the Early Church Fathers.

Generally, my fundamentalist friends shy away from the Church Fathers. Kudos to the new approach. It threw me for a loop.

The prooftexting is someting done to an extreme extent from both pro and con roman POV’s. Invite your fundy friend here, I need some help in the defense of our faith…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Proof-texting the bible ain’t enough for some. . . . .

Paul cherry picked verses! have ye a problem with him?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Proof-texting the bible ain’t enough for some. . . . .

Furthermore, are you suggesting that the CC isn’t guilty of prooftexting?

 

[NotWorthy]

Paul cherry picked verses! have ye a problem with him?

I wouldn’t exactly call it cherry pickin’ now would I? Paul used OT verses to further illustrate his point and to bring a more complete understanding to those OT verses.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I wouldn’t exactly call it cherry pickin’ now would I? Paul used OT verses to further illustrate his point and to bring a more complete understanding to those OT verses.

Yes at one point in the span of a few paragraphs he pulled single verses from numerous areas, let me show ya here in a moment.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes at one point in the span of a few paragraphs he pulled single verses from numerous areas, let me show ya here in a moment.

Yes, I know what he did, especially in Romans (and probably in Hebrews). I’d just refrain from using the term ‘cherry picking". What Paul was doing was on a far higher level then "cherry picking’.