St Francis de Sales on “detachment”

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tommy37 said:
I was wondering, in all your reading, have you read the answer to this question–

I know purgatory is for the purification of sins and attachments but, if we die without reaching these degrees of mystical union, do we have to go through them step by step in purgatory? Or is it more a case of–

–the stage of spiritual maturity and closeness to union with God that we reach at death, (even if we are still in the purgative or illuminative way) that is where we spend our eternity?
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Hi tommy 37, yes, I have wondered about these questions too, although unfortunately I haven’t seen them addressed directly in any of the books I have read. Both Fr Antonio Royo Marín in “The Theology of Christian Perfection” and Dom Vitalis Lehodey in “The Ways of Mental Prayer” say that very few souls progress to the final stage of contemplation of the transforming union/spiritual marriage but I’m not too sure if we could progress to a higher stage of prayer after death. Obviously, all the saints in Heaven would have some sort of “spiritual marriage” with God given that they see the Lord face to face! (although at differing degrees of glory). I have come across the theological maxim that there is “no chance for merit after death” (which would be based on Ecclesiastes 11:3: “whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there it will lie.” and Jesus cursing the fig tree at Mark 11:12-14 (that being the sinner who does not produce good works), as well as the teaching that there is no merit for our suffering in Purgatory, but other than that I’m not too sure. If I come across any of these answers, I’ll be sure to pass them on! Cheers, Tom
 
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mary15 said:
How much do you mortify or deny the flesh though?
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In terms of corporeal penances, you could ask your spiritual director for some suggestions for some corporeal penances. Fr Ignatius Manfredonia from the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate has said he doesn’t think it’s too much for a Christian to fast 1 day a week. Or you could abstain from meat each Friday (or even give up eating meat altogether for love of God (although this would be a serious penance and would require a lot of prayer and thinking over, and obviously your spiritual director’s permission (the Carthusians eat no meat)). Some of the members of Opus Day use the discipline for a minute or two and wear the cilice some days of the week. I know the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate use the discipline each day (except Sundays). Cilice (https://www.cilice.co.uk) supplies disciplines, cilices, etc for members of Opus Dei. I use the discipline, wear a cilice for 30 mins a day and have just bought a hairshirt from Cilice. You could try these forms of penance but you would want to get your spiritual director’s permission. Actually for me, having to go to the grocery store for shopping or doing a 2 hour weights work out is much more penitential than wearing the cilice for 30 mins or using the discipline for a few strokes.

 
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mary15 said:
What do you mean that you sit without words and love God in your quiet time?

Are you just being alone in front of God, and He is looking at you and you are looking at Him and are you trying to bear it because it’s so hard to be still and not hide from His gaze/presence?
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In terms of my prayer in silence with God, I make the sign of the Cross, say a few introductory prayers and then sit in silence. I certainly don’t see God in any way, shape or form! I just know He is present by faith, given His omnipresence.
 
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mary15 said:
I checked the reviews of this book on amazon, and it sounds like a most excellent book!
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Yes, it’s awesome. It’s very attractively produced with the gilded pages, ribbons etc. And yes, Fr. Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen is a Carmelite priest and theologian, so there’s a lot of quotes from Carmelite saints such as St John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, St Therese of Lisieux and others. It has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur too. Not cheap, but worth buying!
 
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I really enjoy your posts and all the information you have provided, brother. God bless you.
 
mary15 said:
How much do you mortify or deny the flesh though?
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Came across some more good advice from the Opes Dei website:

How important is mortification for members of Opus Dei?

Despite The Da Vinci Code’s morbid attention to mortification, for real members of Opus Dei it plays a secondary role. The primary thing for any Catholic is love of God and neighbor. Penance and mortification aim to reduce our self-centeredness and so to help us to grow in love for God and neighbor. In keeping with its spirit of integrating faith with secular life, Opus Dei emphasizes small rather than great sacrifices, like sticking at your work when tired, being punctual, passing up a small pleasure in food or drink, or not complaining.

 
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@TominAdelaide, Of course, you don’t actually see God, I understand that looking at God is not visual, but a deeply spiritual “seeing.”

He looks at you and you look at Him…in the soul, in the heart…where there is a dwelling place meant for Him. It’s your secret place where you and He can hide. This is my favorite thing to do.

@TominAdelaide if we dont progress to the final stage of unification before death surely we will be married or unified to our spouse in heaven, where we will be made perfect!

perhaps the purpose for striving for this earthly perfection is so that we can serve Him better, and thereby serve others better don’t you think?

Tom are you a priest or religious?
 
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tommy37 said:
prayer infuses the act with love,
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Oh, that is such a lovely idea. I want to offer up then, the work or tasks that I dislike and with love so that what could be a negative emotion that discolors my day, there is some light going into the darkness instead, like dropping more water into a darkened glass of water, so as to dispense the darkness of a drop of dark food coloring.

@tommy37 thank you for your easy to understand explanation. I actually hate the dishes as well, lol!!

@TominAdelaide what to you is a fast for one day a week? No food, only water? And do you spend the day in deeper prayer than usual?
 
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You’re welcome! Yes, the example of pouring water into a glass of darkened water is a good way to describe it!
 
TominAdelaide said:
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TominAdelaide:
It has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur too
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May I ask what these two terms mean?
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tommy37 said:
I know purgatory is for the purification of sins and attachments but, if we die without reaching these degrees of mystical union, do we have to go through them step by step in purgatory? Or is it more a case of–

–the stage of spiritual maturity and closeness to union with God that we reach at death, (even if we are still in the purgative or illuminative way) that is where we spend our eternity?
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Further to my last post, I should also mention that Fr Antonio Royo, Fr Adolphe Tanqueray, Dom Vitalis Lehodey and Fr Thomas Dubay in “Fire Within: St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and the Gospel-On Prayer” all confirm that there is a “universal call to contemplation” which is included as part of the “universal call to perfection” (cf. Matthew 5:48). The reason why so few progress, over a lifetime, to contemplative prayer is basically because people resist grace. They also confirm that the Christian not only may, but should, humbly ask the Lord to grant them the grace of contemplative prayer. This is from Dom Vitalis Lehodey, “The Ways of Mental Prayer”:

If a person has not yet entered upon mystical contemplation, may he desire and ask it? … the common and almost universal opinion is, that they may desire and ask the gift of supernatural contemplation, provided that this desire does not arise from pride or sensuality, and that it is accompanied with an humble submission to the Divine Will. These graces of prayer spring in fact from love; they have for principle the Holy Ghost and His better gifts; for object, God; for end, divine union, God tasted and possessed; they enrich the soul with many merits, urge it on to heroic virtues, dispose it to do great things for God and for one’s neighbour, are a powerful lever to raise her from earth and to unite her to the sovereign good; they are even a foretaste of the occupations and the happiness of our heavenly home. How, then, is it possible not to desire them?

From Thomas Dubay in “Fire Within":

The Lord is so desirous of granting His favours to everyone that He is, as it were, sitting on the edge of His Throne, eager to give as soon as we are purified and prepared to receive His gift.

If we are “very careful” about our prayer life, we will soon find ourselves “gradually reaching the summit of the mountain.”1

1 St Teresa of Avila, The Way of Perfection, Chapter 12

From Fr Antonio Royo in “The Theology of Christian Perfection” quoting Fr Garrigou-Lagrange in “Christian Perfection and Contemplation”:

Since we ought to ask for the grace of a happy death, … a fervent soul may indeed, with as much confidence as humility, also ask for the grace of contemplation.
 
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mary15 said:
perhaps the purpose for striving for this earthly perfection is so that we can serve Him better, and thereby serve others better don’t you think?
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Yes, indeed! Dom Vitalis Lehodey says the same in “The Ways of Mental Prayer”:

Above all, we wish in conclusion to remind our brethren, that prayer, whatever be its kind or degree, is not perfection; it is only a most potent means, a wonderfully fertile soil; hence, we must labour to make it produce, both while it lasts and after it is ended, the rich harvest of virtue it promises. It is a tree, that should always bear an abundance of flowers and fruits. The various, and sometimes very intense, acts, which are made during it in great numbers, are fruits already garnered, merits really acquired; but, moreover, we are instructed as to our duty, we have taken resolutions, our petitions have made grace abound, and all these are blossoms to be afterwards developed into fruits. The best prayer is not that which is most savoury, but that which is most fruitful; not that which consoles, but that which transforms us; not that which elevates us in the common or the mystical ways, but that which makes us humble, detached, obedient, generous, faithful to all our duties. Assuredly, we highly esteem contemplation, provided, however, it unites our will to God’s, transforms our life, or, at least, advances us in virtue. As the Sovereign Judge has declared: “the tree is known by its fruits.” We should, therefore, desire to advance in prayer, only in order to make progress in perfection. Instead of curiously examining what degree our communications with God have attained, we should rather consider whether we have derived from them all possible profit, in order to die to ourselves and develop in our soul the Divine life.
 
mary15 said:
@TominAdelaide what to you is a fast for one day a week? No food, only water? And do you spend the day in deeper prayer than usual?
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I have tried no food in the past on fast days, but when I do this, I become incredibly weak and find it difficult to carry out my duties of state properly. I live in Australia, and the Bishops here permit that on a fast day, the Christian can have one normal meal, and a small snack that is smaller than a normal meal. When I have one normal meal (ie breakfast) and a small snack (later in the day), I feel the hunger pangs towards the afternoon and in the evening but have more energy for carrying out my duties of state during the day.

As to spending the day in deeper prayer than usual, the two fast and abstinence days in Australia are Ash Wednesday and Good Friday so yes, I do spend these 2 days with more prayer and recollection than usual. I lift weights on a regular basis so I don’t fast once a week as per Fr Ignatius Manfredonia’s suggestion because it throws out my weight training routine and recovery cycle, but I don’t eat meat on all Fridays of the year. Thankfully I don’t find weight training a fun experience so it has a penitential aspect to it (to make up for not fasting on Fridays)
 
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mary15 said:
He looks at you and you look at Him…in the soul, in the heart…where there is a dwelling place meant for Him. It’s your secret place where you and He can hide. This is my favorite thing to do.
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Yes, indeed! Prayer is a very great privilege and joy!
 
@TominAdelaide Thank you for sharing your joy. Here is a quote from a priest, but there was no name given:

" Ask for the graces to have a heart worthy of HIm dwelling there"

also

“He’s the divine guest within us; let’s not neglect Him”

I need help knowing how one goes about collecting these graces.

I need to have a heart worthy of him…that’s a whole other thread methinks!
:

@TominAdelaide @IanM Can anyone describe what infused contemplation is?
 
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Thanks for the additional info! I get discouraged about this sometimes because I find anything other than vocal prayer very difficult. I have Tourette’s syndrome and other chronic disorders including depression and insomnia that make it so difficult to be still and quiet. The drugs I take make me restless and unable to concentrate. Yet, at the same time, I also have a great desire to do prayer like lectio divina and meditation and to become closer to God but I feel like I’m just remaining at a basic level. Yet, there doesn’t seem to be anything I can do about it. And it seems that this will never change. It’s all very frustrating. From what I’ve read, if I’m remembering correctly, the gift of infused contemplation is given only after a long time of practicing meditation. Have you read anything about being able receive the gift of contemplation through vocal prayer alone? Or, of any saints who were not able to meditate?
 
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mary15 said:
Can anyone describe what infused contemplation is?
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“Acquired” contemplation (also known as the “prayer of simplicity” or the “prayer of the simple gaze”) is placing oneself in a loving silence with God (it is a wordless prayer). It is called “acquired” contemplation because any Christian can progress to this stage of prayer under the ordinary operations of grace. Any Christian who places themselves in the presence of God in a loving silence for a period of time is praying the “prayer of simplicity.” “Infused” contemplation begins with the “prayer of simplicity” but then God begins to “infuse” supernatural gifts into the soul. These “infused’ supernatural gifts are beyond the ordinary operations of grace and are gifts that only God can give (ie a Christian cannot progress to this stage of union with God unless God intervenes with “extraordinary graces”). I myself have never experienced “infused” contemplation so I cannot describe it from experience, but if you are interested in knowing more about it, check out the books I mentioned in the posts above which explain infused contemplation in detail. Although, having said that, as Fr Tanqueray notes, infused contemplation is “beyond the powers of human description”:

From The Spiritual Life: A Treatise on Ascetical and Mystical Theology:

As the mystics admit, this contemplation is beyond the powers of human description.

“It cannot be discerned or described,” says St. John of the Cross.1 “Moreover, the soul has no wish to speak of it, and besides, it can discover no way or proper similitude by which to describe it, so as to make known a knowledge so high, a spiritual impression so delicate and infused. Yea, if it could have a wish to speak of it, and find terms to describe it, it would always remain secret still … The soul is like a man who sees an object for the first time, the like of which he has never seen before; he handles it and feels it, yet he cannot say what it is, or tell its name, do what he can, though it be at the same time an object cognizable by the senses. How much less then can that be described which does not enter by the senses?”
  1. St John of the Cross, Dark Night of the Soul, Book 2, Chapter 17.
This is from the Catechism:

I. VOCAL PRAYER

2700 Through his Word, God speaks to man. By words, mental or vocal, our prayer takes flesh. Yet it is most important that the heart should be present to him to whom we are speaking in prayer: "Whether or not our prayer is heard depends not on the number of words, but on the fervor of our souls."2

2701 Vocal prayer is an essential element of the Christian life. To his disciples, drawn by their Master’s silent prayer, Jesus teaches a vocal prayer, the Our Father. He not only prayed aloud the liturgical prayers of the synagogue but, as the Gospels show, he raised his voice to express his personal prayer, from exultant blessing of the Father to the agony of Gesthemani.3

continued over…
 
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