St. Fransisco Franco?

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devoutchristian said:
Catholic government is immensely better than Atheistic Communism, regardless of the form of government. And since Franco’s death perpetual mass murder of children has been legal in spain, and orphans are handed over to be raised by sodomites.
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No offense, but just because a government is Catholic it makes doing some bad things okay, as long as you go to mass and pray the rosary every day? Franco was probably a devout guy, yes, but persecuting enemies is wrong. What he should have done was to allow the communists to live in peace and have those Catholics in Spain share the Gospel with them. Not subject them to torture and disdain.

Would Jesus kill communists? I doubt it. Sure he wouldn’t like what they did, but he’d try to convince them he loved them and get both sides to drop their arms and follow him and combat evil with the gospel and with the rosary. Not rifles.

BTW i’m hardly a peacenik. I just think its dumb for you to say how it was okay for franco to persecute communists. Tell me, if you ran this country, what would you do to Obama and the like. Would you put them in jail too, or allow them to be forgiven and become true christians.
 
WildCatholic said:
No offense, but just because a government is Catholic it makes doing some bad things okay, as long as you go to mass and pray the rosary every day? Franco was probably a devout guy, yes, but persecuting enemies is wrong. What he should have done was to allow the communists to live in peace and have those Catholics in Spain share the Gospel with them. Not subject them to torture and disdain.

Would Jesus kill communists? I doubt it. Sure he wouldn’t like what they did, but he’d try to convince them he loved them and get both sides to drop their arms and follow him and combat evil with the gospel and with the rosary. Not rifles.

BTW i’m hardly a peacenik. I just think its dumb for you to say how it was okay for franco to persecute communists. Tell me, if you ran this country, what would you do to Obama and the like. Would you put them in jail too, or allow them to be forgiven and become true christians.
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The communists were were killing priests, monks and nuns. they were looting churches, stealing their treasures and partying with church wine. They were pulling the bones of saints out of their graves and spitting on them. They were dynamiting churches and monsteries just for fun or out of pure hate. Maybe Jesus himself would have walked out towards them with outstretched arms and kissed them on both cheeks. But because Franco failed to be Jesus, does that make him a bad man? is that not holding him to too high a standard?

After the war, Franco did strectch out to the communists in a gesture of peace. He allowed them to make amends for their wrongs and many took him up on this offer. The only ones he continued to persecute were those who refused to accept that the war was over and continued to form armed cells and conspire to re-take power (for example the ETA). Those who settled down in peace were left in peace.

Franco was no peacenik, but after the war was over he symbolically handed his rifle over to his priest and swore that he would never again use a gun against a human unless Spain were under attack. Until the end of his days he stood by this promise. Of how many other great leaders can the same be said?
 
Cirdan_XII said:
The communists were were killing priests, monks and nuns. they were looting churches, stealing their treasures and partying with church wine. They were pulling the bones of saints out of their graves and spitting on them. They were dynamiting churches and monsteries just for fun or out of pure hate. Maybe Jesus himself would have walked out towards them with outstretched arms and kissed them on both cheeks. But because Franco failed to be Jesus, does that make him a bad man? is that not holding him to too high a standard?

After the war, Franco did strectch out to the communists in a gesture of peace. He allowed them to make amends for their wrongs and many took him up on this offer. The only ones he continued to persecute were those who refused to accept that the war was over and continued to form armed cells and conspire to re-take power (for example the ETA). Those who settled down in peace were left in peace.

Franco was no peacenik, but after the war was over he symbolically handed his rifle over to his priest and swore that he would never again use a gun against a human unless Spain were under attack. Until the end of his days he stood by this promise. Of how many other great leaders can the same be said?
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Okay, so he never did this again. Still might does not make right. Franco ran his country so that Catholicism was the only game in town. No offense, but JP 2 , Benedict and Francis are big on religious freedom. Maybe Generalisimo Franco was, I doubt it. Might doesn’t make right. Tell me, would it be okay for me to hit my mother because she doesn’t believe in God and has berated my beliefs, calling me “stupid” for believing in God? Since I’m not Christ and am not perfect, according to your example with Franco, I am okay.
 
WildCatholic said:
Okay, so he never did this again. Still might does not make right. Franco ran his country so that Catholicism was the only game in town. No offense, but JP 2 , Benedict and Francis are big on religious freedom. Maybe Generalisimo Franco was, I doubt it. Might doesn’t make right. Tell me, would it be okay for me to hit my mother because she doesn’t believe in God and has berated my beliefs, calling me “stupid” for believing in God? Since I’m not Christ and am not perfect, according to your example with Franco, I am okay.
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On the question of Franco’s religious tolerance, Franco refused to persecute the Spanish Jews even after Hitler told him in no uncertain terms that those were the rules of the game. In fact many Jews fled from France into Spain and from there many went on to the USA. Hitler’s French allies even patrolled the border to seek to prevent Jews getting out that way. But once they were over the border, Franco granted them free passage. But that’s one of the facts the communists like to skip over when teling their side of the story.
 
St Thomas Aquinas said that heretics deserved the death penalty. Should we stop venerating him because he wasn’t politically correct?
 
Cirdan_XII said:
On the question of Franco’s religious tolerance, Franco refused to persecute the Spanish Jews even after Hitler told him in no uncertain terms that those were the rules of the game. In fact many Jews fled from France into Spain and from there many went on to the USA. Hitler’s French allies even patrolled the border to seek to prevent Jews getting out that way. But once they were over the border, Franco granted them free passage. But that’s one of the facts the communists like to skip over when teling their side of the story.
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This is true. I did read this in a Holocaust studies course. However one kind act doesn’t make a good person. Al Capone ran soup kitchens in Chicago in the depression. Should we canonize him? On that same token should we call someone like Herbert Hoover a godless communist because he did the humanitarian thing by giving aid to the Soviet Union during one of their famines? One act doesn’t make a person good or bad. I’ll accept Franco did some good things, but he did bad things. Just like the rest of us. I just don’t think he’s fit for canonization.
 
CatholicLife said:
St Thomas Aquinas said that heretics deserved the death penalty. Should we stop venerating him because he wasn’t politically correct?
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He lived 800 years ago - not in the 20th century. And he wasn’t canonized because his teaching was 100% correct in all aspects- even the Devil can quote scripture (better than any of us and Aquinas and that doesn’t make him a candidate for sainthood)

Also - lets get one thing clear Franco didn’t just kill communists, nor were all who opposed him godless communists…

He killed prisoners of war, ordinary people, men, women and children, mothers, fathers, the working poor who wanted a union (which is a right recognized by rerum novarum), people who couldn’t find an answer in the extreme right wing agenda than Franco pushed.

He didn’t just kill stalinist priest killers, but ordinary people - like many of the folks here on CAF.

THAT’S WHY HE HID THE GRAVES!!!
 
devoutchristian said:
The point is that one doesn’t have to be right about everything to be a good person.
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No - you have to be good.

You could say that Franco was right (no pun intended), but NOT good.

He was a brutal and violent man who happened to be right about the communists, but wrong about almost everything else.
 
devoutchristian said:
If Truman and Churchill were good people then so was Franco.
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Did Churchill bomb his own people?

Did he authorize the killing of POWs?

Did he OK policies of brutal retaliation against women and children?

Did he rubber stamp the abduction of 10s of thousands of children?

Did he make a register of British people with Jewish backgrounds and give this to the Nazis?

Ditto Truman.

Franco isn’t worthy to clean their shoes.
 
devoutchristian said:
No, he bombed the German people. Did Jesus say that we should love everyone, or our neighbors only.

He authorized the killing of civilians.

If those women and children lived in Dresden or another similar German town then yes.
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So Franco was in a total war with his own country’s population after he won the war?

Unlike Churchill who was in a state of total war with the Nazis, who built their factories in among civilian populations.

Are you really so unable to see the difference between someone who kills his own people after the war is won, and someone who wages war on another country after being attacked, after the whole of Europe has been overrun, and 6-9 million Jews are being herded towards the gas chambers?? :confused:

Really?

If so, then it’s not worth my time or energy having any discussion with you.
 
triumphguy said:
Also - lets get one thing clear Franco didn’t just kill communists, nor were all who opposed him godless communists…

He killed prisoners of war, ordinary people, men, women and children, mothers, fathers, the working poor who wanted a union (which is a right recognized by rerum novarum), people who couldn’t find an answer in the extreme right wing agenda than Franco pushed.

He didn’t just kill stalinist priest killers, but ordinary people - like many of the folks here on CAF.

THAT’S WHY HE HID THE GRAVES!!!
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I’ve said in my first post that I wouldn’t go so far as to nominate Franco for sainthood, but. . . . . . from where are you getting this information? This is not my understanding of the governmental executions at all. Hiding graves? Killing innocent union workers? It sounds like something straight out of my ultra-marxist college professor’s lectures. I remember - the class was on Spanish film themes / surrealism, and while I remember expecting a bit of political background behind the artists’ inspirations, I couldn’t believe the rabid side dose of commie propaganda that went along with it. :eek:
 
Can we please leave out the subject of WWII and Jews on this thread?
 
lerapt78 said:
I’ve said in my first post that I wouldn’t go so far as to nominate Franco for sainthood, but. . . . . . from where are you getting this information? This is not my understanding of the governmental executions at all. Hiding graves? Killing innocent union workers? It sounds like something straight out of my ultra-marxist college professor’s lectures. I remember - the class was on Spanish film themes / surrealism, and while I remember expecting a bit of political background behind the artists’ inspirations, I couldn’t believe the rabid side dose of commie propaganda that went along with it. :eek:
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Where am I getting my info?

Sources like this: The Daily Telegraph - a bastion of Right Wing journalism published this piece:
Spain publishes map with over 2,000 Franco-era mass graves
The Spanish government published on Thursday for the first time a map with the location of over 2,000 mass graves of victims of the country’s 1936-39 Civil War and the repression that followed during General Francisco Franco’s dictatorship.
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8496318/Spain-publishes-map-with-over-2000-Franco-era-mass-graves.html
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Here’s the official Spanish Website listing the graves as they are discovered and excavated and the remains re-interred.

memoriahistorica.gob.es/index.htm

You know - horse’s mouth kind of sources.👍
 
triumphguy said:
Did Churchill bomb his own people?
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Maybe not, but through inaction he allowed his own people to be bombed. Pretending he couldn’t decode nazi messages was more important to him than saving lives.
triumphguy said:
Did he authorize the killing of POWs?
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In South Africa, yes
triumphguy said:
Did he OK policies of brutal retaliation against women and children?
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Nazi deserters who offered to fight on his side were sent home to a certain death.
 
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