St. Ignatius who sat of Jesus' lap Matt. 18:3-4 & Mark 9:36 - how can anyone believe that there was a Great Apostacy after the deaths of the Apostles?

[SingleMomMonica]

"In the life of St. Ignatius the God-bearer, Bishop of Antioch, who was crowned in Rome with a martyr’s death under the emperor Trajan, we read the following: “When they were taking him to be devoured by wild beasts, and he had the name of Jesus constantly on his lips, the pagans asked him why he unceasingly remembered that name. The saint replied that he had the name of Jesus Christ written in his heart and that he confessed with his mouth Him Whom he always carried in his heart. After the saint had been eaten by the wild beasts, by the will of God among his bones his heart was preserved intact. The infidels found it, and then remembered what St. Ignatius had said. So they cut that heart into halves, wishing to know whether what they had been told was true. Inside, on the two halves of the heart that had been cut open, they found an inscription in gold letters: Jesus Christ. Thus St. Ignatius was in name and in fact a God-bearer, always carrying Christ our God in his heart, written by the reflection (or meditation) of his mind as with a reed.”
St. Ignatius was a disciple of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Divine, and was privileged in his childhood to see the Lord Jesus Christ personally. He was that blessed child of whom it is said in the Gospel that the Lord placed him among the apostles who had been arguing about priority, took him in His arms and said: “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Certainly St. Ignatius was taught the prayer of Jesus by the holy Evangelist and practiced it in that flourishing period of Christianity like all other Christians. At that time all Christians learned the prayer of Jesus, firstly on account of the great importance of the prayer itself, and then on account of the sarcity and costliness of the handwritten holy books, on account of the rarity of literacy (most of the apostles were illiterate), and on account of the convenience, satisfaction and very special action and power of the prayer of Jesus.”
From the book: On the Prayer of Jesus by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov

 

[Anna_Scott]

"In the life of St. Ignatius the God-bearer, Bishop of Antioch, who was crowned in Rome with a martyr’s death under the emperor Trajan, we read the following: “When they were taking him to be devoured by wild beasts, and he had the name of Jesus constantly on his lips, the pagans asked him why he unceasingly remembered that name. The saint replied that he had the name of Jesus Christ written in his heart and that he confessed with his mouth Him Whom he always carried in his heart. After the saint had been eaten by the wild beasts, by the will of God among his bones his heart was preserved intact. The infidels found it, and then remembered what St. Ignatius had said. So they cut that heart into halves, wishing to know whether what they had been told was true. Inside, on the two halves of the heart that had been cut open, they found an inscription in gold letters: Jesus Christ. Thus St. Ignatius was in name and in fact a God-bearer, always carrying Christ our God in his heart, written by the reflection (or meditation) of his mind as with a reed.”
St. Ignatius was a disciple of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Divine, and was privileged in his childhood to see the Lord Jesus Christ personally. He was that blessed child of whom it is said in the Gospel that the Lord placed him among the apostles who had been arguing about priority, took him in His arms and said: “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Certainly St. Ignatius was taught the prayer of Jesus by the holy Evangelist and practiced it in that flourishing period of Christianity like all other Christians. At that time all Christians learned the prayer of Jesus, firstly on account of the great importance of the prayer itself, and then on account of the sarcity and costliness of the handwritten holy books, on account of the rarity of literacy (most of the apostles were illiterate), and on account of the convenience, satisfaction and very special action and power of the prayer of Jesus.”
From the book: On the Prayer of Jesus by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov

SingleMomMonica:

Interesting quote. I have not heard that story.

Are you referring to the Mormon claim of the great apostasy?

Anna

 

[SingleMomMonica]

SingleMomMonica:

Interesting quote. I have not heard that story.

Are you referring to the Mormon claim of the great apostasy?

Anna

Yeah. It bugs me that I keep hearing various Mormons say that - it’s just not in line with historical facts.

Last night, I read that part of St. Ignatius’ story was was very moved by it, even my family was excited to hear it, and I realized that it’s just further proof that this whole idea of a Great Apostasy is false.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Yeah. It bugs me that I keep hearing various Mormons say that - it’s just not in line with historical facts.

Last night, I read that part of St. Ignatius’ story was was very moved by it, even my family was excited to hear it, and I realized that it’s just further proof that this whole idea of a Great Apostasy is false.

Many groups talk about the ‘Great Apostasy’ but they don’t agree on when it happened! They don’t agree because it is just a figment they make up to justify their own existence. If there really were such a thing they would agree on when and what it was.

 

[ParkerD]

Yeah. It bugs me that I keep hearing various Mormons say that - it’s just not in line with historical facts.

Last night, I read that part of St. Ignatius’ story was was very moved by it, even my family was excited to hear it, and I realized that it’s just further proof that this whole idea of a Great Apostasy is false.

SingleMomMonica,
It’s OK with me that you believe the dramatic story about the heart being cut open and the “name” written (by the way, in what language and how many people wrote about the event?) and about Ignatius having been the child placed in the midst of the apostles when they were thinking Jesus would not want to be bothered by little children. (He taught an important lesson about infants and their purity with what He did and said at that time.) But the changes in church teachings and practices happened gradually and that story is an example of a fine dramatic story that moves some people but does not match Biblical truths about how God teaches faith and how the name of Jesus is to be written not within the physical heart but within the spiritual heart, by a person’s actions, attitudes, and how they love and forgive others.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Many groups talk about the ‘Great Apostasy’ but they don’t agree on when it happened! They don’t agree because it is just a figment they make up to justify their own existence. If there really were such a thing they would agree on when and what it was.

I don’t know about other groups, but the Mormons co-workers I have and the missionaries that come over all say that the Great Apostasy happened upon the death of the last Apostle…

But even that doesn’t make sense in light of another belief of their’s anyway - the belief that St. John the Baptist can never die, that he’s still alive somewhere on earth today. How awful is that - to wander the Earth century after century, seeing death after death of each friend he’s ever had - how lonely that would be since no one else would be able to really know him since he’d have to keep the secret that he can never die. And how difficult in this day & age with social security numbers. I guess he’s having to steal identities in order to work to obtain food/lodging. Poor St. John is out there somewhere saying: “Okay God, stop the world. I want to get off now!” In all actuality, St. John was buried in Ephesus after his death way back when and he is currently enjoying eternal life. Why would the Mormon God have it out for St. John anyway? He was the “Beloved” of Christ! Not the “Behated”.

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t know about other groups, but the Mormons co-workers I have and the missionaries that come over all say that the Great Apostasy happened upon the death of the last Apostle…

But even that doesn’t make sense in light of another belief of their’s anyway - the belief that St. John the Baptist can never die, that he’s still alive somewhere on earth today. How awful is that - to wander the Earth century after century, seeing death after death of each friend he’s ever had - how lonely that would be since no one else would be able to really know him since he’d have to keep the secret that he can never die. And how difficult in this day & age with social security numbers. I guess he’s having to steal identities in order to work to obtain food/lodging. Poor St. John is out there somewhere saying: “Okay God, stop the world. I want to get off now!” In all actuality, St. John was buried in Ephesus after his death way back when and he is currently enjoying eternal life. Why would the Mormon God have it out for St. John anyway? He was the “Beloved” of Christ! Not the “Behated”.

SingleMomMonica,
Those were pretty astute observations.
The apostle John wanted to remain on the earth–he wasn’t forced to do that. His vision as recorded in the book of Revelation showed that he could see that the churches were already having conditions of people being led astray from the pure doctrine Christ had taught. That vision happened in about 90 BC, yet if you look up who the supposed “leader” of the church was after Peter had died, it wasn’t John but should have been.

What comes to my mind when I think about John is how completely unselfish he was to want to stay on the earth and guide people to Christ and be allowed to visit some of the descendants of the house of Israel to help individuals with searching hearts be prepared for Christ’s loving, healing gospel. He wouldn’t have ID, you’re right, because he could come and go as he is led to do so by the Holy Spirit, and doesn’t have a residence per se. His body was changed to a “translated body”, so he is not subject to the power and conditions of the earth and not subject to the temptations of the evil one.

But if missionaries say all the apostles died, you ought to go ahead and correct them and they’ll be impressed!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

SingleMomMonica,
Those were pretty astute observations.
The apostle John wanted to remain on the earth–he wasn’t forced to do that. His vision as recorded in the book of Revelation showed that he could see that the churches were already having conditions of people being led astray from the pure doctrine Christ had taught. That vision happened in about 90 BC, yet if you look up who the supposed “leader” of the church was after Peter had died, it wasn’t John but should have been.

What comes to my mind when I think about John is how completely unselfish he was to want to stay on the earth and guide people to Christ and be allowed to visit some of the descendants of the house of Israel to help individuals with searching hearts be prepared for Christ’s loving, healing gospel. He wouldn’t have ID, you’re right, because he could come and go as he is led to do so by the Holy Spirit, and doesn’t have a residence per se. His body was changed to a “translated body”, so he is not subject to the power and conditions of the earth and not subject to the temptations of the evil one.

But if missionaries say all the apostles died, you ought to go ahead and correct them and they’ll be impressed!

Serious questions:

Using your logic…Then why wasn’t St. John the Apostle made the President of the LDS Church when it was founded in the 1800’s and why isn’t he now and always the President of the LDS Church?

The missionaries still affirm that after the Apostles all died (save St. John) that that is when the Great Apostasy occured. Curious to know if you have a different time frame for this supposed Great Apostasy?

 

[ParkerD]

Serious questions:

Using your logic…Then why wasn’t St. John the Apostle made the President of the LDS Church when it was founded in the 1800’s and why isn’t he now and always the President of the LDS Church?

The missionaries still affirm that after the Apostles all died (save St. John) that that is when the Great Apostasy occured. Curious to know if you have a different time frame for this supposed Great Apostasy?

SingleMomMonica,
(I need to make a correction that John’s vision was in 90 AD, not 90 BC–woops.)

If one of God’s major objectives in this life is for people to learn to have faith in Him, then it wouldn’t work so well for a prophet to be recognized as the leader of the church that everyone would know about, who was a translated being not subject to the powers of the earth. After John had been translated and his body changed to that condition, he would no longer be considered mortal and would have a different purpose and mission than being the leader of the church among mortal people. It would be too much of a “sign” if John were to be standing in front of the whole world saying, “I am the apostle John you’ve read about in the New Testament, and I’m tarrying until Jesus comes again just as you’ve read that Jesus said I would do.” God wants us to learn by faith, not by signs. When John visits people on earth, he will not be telling them who he is and will not draw attention to himself in any way. He will just look like a normal person (probably dressed like the people he visits).

God has used mortal people except Jesus Christ to be prophets on the earth among the people. In this way, we have more cause to need to have faith and to learn to recognize truths of the gospel when we hear them as the Holy Spirit confirms the truth to our heart.

The changes in the church happened differently in different locations, and it doesn’t mean everyone followed the changes. The strongest, most persuasive leaders would be the ones who brought the changes about, and some people probably resisted but were less persuasive or may have stopped attending when they no longer felt the Holy Spirit at meetings. I think by the time John saw his vision (90 AD), that was happening in many places, then more changes happened later, gradually–not one dramatic change.

 

[Anna_Scott]

SingleMomMonica,
Those were pretty astute observations.
The apostle John wanted to remain on the earth–he wasn’t forced to do that. His vision as recorded in the book of Revelation showed that he could see that the churches were already having conditions of people being led astray from the pure doctrine Christ had taught. That vision happened in about 90 BC, yet if you look up who the supposed “leader” of the church was after Peter had died, it wasn’t John but should have been.

What comes to my mind when I think about John is how completely unselfish he was to want to stay on the earth and guide people to Christ and be allowed to visit some of the descendants of the house of Israel to help individuals with searching hearts be prepared for Christ’s loving, healing gospel. He wouldn’t have ID, you’re right, because he could come and go as he is led to do so by the Holy Spirit, and doesn’t have a residence per se. His body was changed to a “translated body”, so he is not subject to the power and conditions of the earth and not subject to the temptations of the evil one.

But if missionaries say all the apostles died, you ought to go ahead and correct them and they’ll be impressed!

ParkerD:
This is one Mormon belief that I was unaware of. Are you saying that the author of the Gospel of John ,also wrote the Book of Revelation, and still walks the earth today?

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD:
This is one Mormon belief that I was unaware of. Are you saying that the author of the Gospel of John ,also wrote the Book of Revelation, and still walks the earth today?

Anna

Hi, Anna,
Thanks for asking. Doctrine and Covenants 7 is as follows, on the subject of the apostle John:

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

John the apostle was indeed John the Revelator, and also wrote the epistles of John.

He was translated to a condition that allowed him to tarry on the earth, so he is still on the earth until the Second Coming of Christ, but only visits people whom the Holy Spirit guides him to visit, and does not tell them his name. He teaches them Biblical teachings and then leaves to allow them to think about what he has taught them and seek more knowledge to draw closer to Jesus. He is like a “preparer of the way.”

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi, Anna,
Thanks for asking. Doctrine and Covenants 7 is as follows, on the subject of the apostle John:

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

John the apostle was indeed John the Revelator, and also wrote the epistles of John.

He was translated to a condition that allowed him to tarry on the earth, so he is still on the earth until the Second Coming of Christ, but only visits people whom the Holy Spirit guides him to visit, and does not tell them his name. He teaches them Biblical teachings and then leaves to allow them to think about what he has taught them and seek more knowledge to draw closer to Jesus. He is like a “preparer of the way.”

ParkerD:

Very interesting. Appreciate the quotes. You are one busy guy, ParkerD. How do you keep up with all these threads and have time to eat and sleep?

I know that many Biblical scholars would disagree that the same John authored all NT texts entitled “John.” Since, I’m not such a scholar, I cannot say for sure. Considering my studies, to date; I doubt the same John wrote all of these texts.

Jesus said that John was Elijah; though John, himself, denied it. Scripture tells us Elijah, the prophet, will come, before the great and awesome day of the LORD.

I have been puzzled by the disciples asking Christ, isn’t Elijah to come first. It sounds like they understood the end of days to be eminent. I’m digressing. Sorry.

Malachi Chapter 4 (ESV):
The Great Day of the LORD
1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 6And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”

Matthew Chapter 17:
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” 10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

Mark Chapter 9:
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead might mean. 11 And they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 12 And he said to them, “Elijah does come first to restore all things. And how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13** But I tell you that Elijah has come**, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him.”

John Chapter 1:
The Testimony of John the Baptist
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

What is your belief regarding John being Elijah?

What role does John play in regards to the Mormon claim of the “great apostasy”?

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD:

Very interesting. Appreciate the quotes. You are one busy guy, ParkerD. How do you keep up with all these threads and have time to eat and sleep?

I know that many Biblical scholars would disagree that the same John authored all NT texts entitled “John.” Since, I’m not such a scholar, I cannot say for sure. Considering my studies, to date; I doubt the same John wrote all of these texts.

Jesus said that John was Elijah; though John, himself, denied it. Scripture tells us Elijah, the prophet, will come, before the great and awesome day of the LORD.

I have been puzzled by the disciples asking Christ, isn’t Elijah to come first. It sounds like they understood the end of days to be eminent. I’m digressing. Sorry.

Malachi Chapter 4 (ESV):
The Great Day of the LORD
1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 6And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”

Matthew Chapter 17:
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” 10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

Mark Chapter 9:
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead might mean. 11 And they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 12 And he said to them, “Elijah does come first to restore all things. And how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13** But I tell you that Elijah has come**, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him.”

John Chapter 1:
The Testimony of John the Baptist
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

What is your belief regarding John being Elijah?

What role does John play in regards to the Mormon claim of the “great apostasy”?

Anna

Hi, Anna,

Wonderful questions, with a lot of thought behind them. (I like really deep Biblical questions that show a person has really studied and thought about the subject.
Thanks also for asking about my sleep. Sometimes I have a dream that wakes me up at some strange hour of the night and I feel some urgency to answer a question that has come up that I didn’t know about until I log on.)

The names “Elijah” and “Elias” are evidently translatable into either name from the original source language, so the LDS belief is that John the Baptist was an “Elias” meaning a “preparer of the way”, and Elijah the Prophet was also prophesied to return to the earth before the Second Coming of Christ as a “preparer of the way.”

The book of Revelation was definitely recorded by the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos. I think one could do a “word print” analysis of the texts of the book of John, his epistles, and the book of Revelation and find similar usage patterns and be able to ascertain that the same person was writing.

I think John was very grieved at how the church was struggling to remain pure while he was trying to do his part to keep changes from happening. His vision had some very important knowledge to convey to the world. When he appeared so many years later with Peter and James to Joseph Smith, he would have still been a translated being at that time, in 1829.

 

[TheosisM]

Many groups talk about the ‘Great Apostasy’ but they don’t agree on when it happened! They don’t agree because it is just a figment they make up to justify their own existence. If there really were such a thing they would agree on when and what it was.

This is correct. While I may not agree with the conclusion that because they don’t agree on when it happened that it is made up (although I do believe that there was no “Great Apostasy”), you are correct that there are a number of groups that talk about a Great Apostasy, ranging from the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Churches of Christ, Christadelphians, etc. Each claims the restoration of various divergent beliefs.

 

[1beleevr]

I tend to believe that the child whom Christ had on His lap, was not ignatius,as there was no real proof; so it could have been any kid!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Hi, Anna,
Thanks for asking. Doctrine and Covenants 7 is as follows, on the subject of the apostle John:

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

John the apostle was indeed John the Revelator, and also wrote the epistles of John.

He was translated to a condition that allowed him to tarry on the earth, so he is still on the earth until the Second Coming of Christ, but only visits people whom the Holy Spirit guides him to visit, and does not tell them his name. He teaches them Biblical teachings and then leaves to allow them to think about what he has taught them and seek more knowledge to draw closer to Jesus. He is like a “preparer of the way.”

Wow - so in other words - St. John blew it big time. He was supposed to:

1. According to D&C 7:2 Stay around to bring souls to God; however, according to the Great Apostasy theory - he failed to bring anyone to Christ until the 1800’s with Joseph Smith - although according to Joseph Smith’s account, St. John did not influence him at all.
2. According to D&C 7:3 He was supposed to Prophecy before Nations - which if he had been a Prophet in any Nation from the time of Christ to present it remains documented in any culture around the world - and if he’d done this in secret (although the verse 3 hardly sounds like it would be done in secret) he failed because for 1700 centuries, according to the Great Apostasy theory, no one person or nation had ever come to Christ.
3. According to D&C 7:5 - He was supposed to have done a greater work than he’d ever done before - where is the proof? The theory of the Great Apostasy, if believed, proves that St. John completely failed in this effort. Plus all his previous work was well documented, now supposedly he’d been doing even Greater Works - how does that jive? When it is clear that he failed his mission.

It is much more logical to go with the facts of history which show the wonderful works of St. John before he died, to visit the ruins of the Church where he was buried in Ephesus, to study the lives of his disciples like St. Ignatius who became Bishop of Antioch a Patriarchate and who himself did wonderful miracles before and after his martyrdom. The LDS beliefs seriously contradict each other in this matter. Stick with the facts of history.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Wow - so in other words - St. John blew it big time. He was supposed to:

1. According to D&C 7:2 Stay around to bring souls to God; however, according to the Great Apostasy theory - he failed to bring anyone to Christ until the 1800’s with Joseph Smith - although according to Joseph Smith’s account, St. John did not influence him at all.
2. According to D&C 7:3 He was supposed to Prophecy before Nations - which if he had been a Prophet in any Nation from the time of Christ to present it remains documented in any culture around the world - and if he’d done this in secret (although the verse 3 hardly sounds like it would be done in secret) he failed because for 1700 centuries, according to the Great Apostasy theory, no one person or nation had ever come to Christ.
3. According to D&C 7:5 - He was supposed to have done a greater work than he’d ever done before - where is the proof? The theory of the Great Apostasy, if believed, proves that St. John completely failed in this effort. Plus all his previous work was well documented, now supposedly he’d been doing even Greater Works - how does that jive? When it is clear that he failed his mission.

It is much more logical to go with the facts of history which show the wonderful works of St. John before he died, to visit the ruins of the Church where he was buried in Ephesus, to study the lives of his disciples like St. Ignatius who became Bishop of Antioch a Patriarchate and who himself did wonderful miracles before and after his martyrdom. The LDS beliefs seriously contradict each other in this matter. Stick with the facts of history.

Interesting response, which questions they do beg for an answer.

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

Wow - so in other words - St. John blew it big time. He was supposed to:

1. According to D&C 7:2 Stay around to bring souls to God; however, according to the Great Apostasy theory - he failed to bring anyone to Christ until the 1800’s with Joseph Smith - although according to Joseph Smith’s account, St. John did not influence him at all.
2. According to D&C 7:3 He was supposed to Prophecy before Nations - which if he had been a Prophet in any Nation from the time of Christ to present it remains documented in any culture around the world - and if he’d done this in secret (although the verse 3 hardly sounds like it would be done in secret) he failed because for 1700 centuries, according to the Great Apostasy theory, no one person or nation had ever come to Christ.
3. According to D&C 7:5 - He was supposed to have done a greater work than he’d ever done before - where is the proof? The theory of the Great Apostasy, if believed, proves that St. John completely failed in this effort. Plus all his previous work was well documented, now supposedly he’d been doing even Greater Works - how does that jive? When it is clear that he failed his mission.

It is much more logical to go with the facts of history which show the wonderful works of St. John before he died, to visit the ruins of the Church where he was buried in Ephesus, to study the lives of his disciples like St. Ignatius who became Bishop of Antioch a Patriarchate and who himself did wonderful miracles before and after his martyrdom. The LDS beliefs seriously contradict each other in this matter. Stick with the facts of history.

Hi, SingleMomMonica,
It’s OK–I don’t mind that you have a different kind of approach to history than I do.

When John was told about prophesying “before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people,” then he was with Jesus and it was 34 AD. Guess what? The book of Revelation was written after that, and guess what else–it has gone forth to all the world and is prophesying “before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people,” and John also recorded the book of John after 34 AD so I would certainly agree with Christ that he had a greater work to do than what he had done by that point in time. I wouldn’t think Christ has had an inkling of hesitation in saying that John is fulfilling the prophecy about him and has done a magnificent job of following the Holy Spirit and giving the world exactly what the Spirit has revealed that the world needs to have from his writings.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Wonderful questions, with a lot of thought behind them. (I like really deep Biblical questions that show a person has really studied and thought about the subject.

Thanks also for asking about my sleep. Sometimes I have a dream that wakes me up at some strange hour of the night and I feel some urgency to answer a question that has come up that I didn’t know about until I log on.)

The names “Elijah” and “Elias” are evidently translatable into either name from the original source language, so the LDS belief is that John the Baptist was an “Elias” meaning a “preparer of the way”, and Elijah the Prophet was also prophesied to return to the earth before the Second Coming of Christ as a “preparer of the way.”

The book of Revelation was definitely recorded by the apostle John, on the isle of Patmos. I think one could do a “word print” analysis of the texts of the book of John, his epistles, and the book of Revelation and find similar usage patterns and be able to ascertain that the same person was writing.

I think John was very grieved at how the church was struggling to remain pure while he was trying to do his part to keep changes from happening. His vision had some very important knowledge to convey to the world. When he appeared so many years later with Peter and James to Joseph Smith, he would have still been a translated being at that time, in 1829.

I thought Elias was the Greek form of Elijah, making them one and the same. I suppose there could be some arguments regarding transliteration–if you consider Latin to Greek and Greek to English, etc. It gets confusing.

However, according to Malachi, it was Elijah who was to return to earth, before that great and terrible day of the Lord.

It would have been Elijah that the disciples spoke of when asking Christ, if he(Elijah) is to come first. Christ said Elijah had already come, and he was John. As you know, John was beheaded, according to Scripture.

Are you certain you are not confusing the John, who came before Christ (sometimes called John the Baptizer,) with the John who wrote Revelation?

I realize that St. John the Evangelist, was the only disciple to escape martyrdom. Though, if my memory serves me correctly, John died in Ephesus.

Do you have any Biblical proof that the John of Revelation never died and still walks among us?

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

I thought Elias was the Greek form of Elijah, making them one and the same. I suppose there could be some arguments regarding transliteration–if you consider Latin to Greek and Greek to English, etc. It gets confusing.

However, according to Malachi, it was Elijah who was to return to earth, before that great and terrible day of the Lord.

It would have been Elijah that the disciples spoke of when asking Christ, if he(Elijah) is to come first. Christ said Elijah had already come, and he was John. As you know, John was beheaded, according to Scripture.

Are you certain you are not confusing the John, who came before Christ (sometimes called John the Baptizer,) with the John who wrote Revelation?

I realize that St. John the Evangelist, was the only disciple to escape martyrdom. Though, if my memory serves me correctly, John died in Ephesus.

Do you have any Biblical proof that the John of Revelation never died and still walks among us?

Anna

Anna,
I agree that John the Baptist was an “Elias”, and that Christ said he performed that calling of being an “Elias” and preparing the way for the ministry of Christ on the earth. John the Baptist knew that he had that kind of assignment.

Malachi 4 seems quite clearly to be talking about the Second Coming of Christ, if one reads verses 1 and 2 and compares with Matthew 24 and with Isaiah 11. You may be aware that Joseph Smith declared that Elijah the Prophet returned to the earth on April 3, 1836 to the Kirtland Temple and restored keys related to turning the hearts of the children to their fathers. That day was precisely the day in Jewish cultural heritage of the celebration of the anticipated coming of Elijah the Prophet (not surprising that he would come at the time they had anticipated, even though they didn’t realize it).

I referred to the apostle John as a “preparer of the way” because of his assignment to visit people who would be searching, and prepare their hearts for more knowledge concerning Jesus Christ and His gospel. I think even though he knew he had been told he would “tarry” on earth until the Second Coming of Christ (see John 21:21-23), John was never boastful at all and wrote in the third person and would not have provided more clues about his assignment unless specifically directed by the Spirit. I would not expect the book of Revelation to attest about that assignment since the declaration of the Savior was recorded in the book of John.