St. Joan of Arc relics proved a fake

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poetbdk

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The story about the relics of St. Joan of Arc being proven fake is all over the news today but what I have been wondering is why any credence was given to this by the Church in the first place in the 19th century when they were supposedly found. The history of St. Joan is well documented and the English went to great lengths to make sure nothing was left that could be later said was a relic. Anyone have an thoughts on this?
 
poet,

It’s not entirely clear to me how these items were viewed by the Church. Were they given any recognition? It seems they were in a museum since at least 2006. Longer? Anyone know?

My suspicion is that the Church never gave her opinion on the matter, And my guess is that because of their unconfirmed nature and the exceptional lack of “provenance”, no one took them too seriously?

VC
 
The Church never endorsed those relics in the first place.
 
According to the article the relics were “overseen by the Archbishop of Tours in Chinon, France” which certainly sounds like some official Church involvement.
 
We have been warned time and again not to trust TV channels like the history channel or Discovery for factual information about our faith

These people often put their own spin on things

I watched even a National Geo channel telling people what a swell guy King Herod really was!!!

Buy a decent history book or go to someone who isn’t trying to sensationalize things for answers

:eek:
 
According to the article the relics were “overseen by the Archbishop of Tours in Chinon, France” which certainly sounds like some official Church involvement.
Poet,

Again, really doubtful. Most likely the original story (which is then picked up and repeated) was written by someone who was shorthanding things, and “overseen by the Archbishop” might mean that the museum was in the diocese. It doesn’t really mean anything.

The thing is that St. Joan wasnt even beatified until 1909. So, those artifacts found in 1867 certainly weren’t something the “Church” put forth as relics for veneration.

Even after St. Joan was canonized in 1920, it would be very unlikely that the local ordinary would endorse the items as relics. They just don’t have any history! They show up in a pharmacy with an obscure label.

My guess is that they were put in a museum as a curiosity. VC
 
On another forum about St. Joan one of the members posted the following:
"In Scott’s 1974 book, he describes this “relic” as follows:
Under the title Existe-t-il des reliques de Sainte Jeanne d’Arc? the Abbé
Paul Carpentier has written a profoundly interesting article in `Ecclesia’
for May 1951, in which he tells of the discovery in Paris towards the
end of the Second Empire of a small glass phial among a collection of
old drugs and medicines. I quote the words of the finder:

The phial only contained little pieces of bone and fragments of
linen. Intrigued by this, I examined the phial with scrupulous care,
and thought I could discern traces of writing on the scrap of parchment
which covered the top of the phial. After wiping the parchment
with a damp cloth I was able to read the following inscription,
partly effaced by age: `Remains found beneath the scaffold site of
Jeanne d’Arc, Maid of Orléans’.
In the year 1892 these relics were brought to Orleans and examined
by the members of the Commission dealing with the cause for canonization.
The following year these experts gave their report, which was
in effect as follows: (1) that the phial and the inscription were of
seventeenth- century date; (2) that the bones were three in number, of which
one was undoubtedly human, and calcined by fire; (3) that the material
was linen, and certainly of fifteenth-century date; (4) that the other
objects in the phial were two pieces of wood, one of which was made
of strips of wood held together by some resinous matter, the whole
being covered by linen probably of the same date as the preceding. It
has been suggested that this latter morsel of wood may have been a
portion of the torch by which light was set to the b^{u}cher.
It is obviously impossible to come to any certain conclusion."
 
I am losing the point you are trying to make relics are not part of the canonization process…there must be medical miracles attested to by a panel of doctors

It is a very lengthy process, and one that leaves no stone unturned
 
Hiyas:)

To me, personally, it neither takes away nor adds to what Saint Joan of Arc stood for.

She was Catholic.
She was a girl soldier of Catholic Faith Who won some impressive battles - kicked but* ]
She was martyred as a Catholic.

Just as: to me, I don’t need the Shroud of Turin to understand or believe in The Passion of Jesus.

As always, just my thoughts
 
What were the miracles that the Vatican accepted to raise Joan of Arc to the official rank of Canonized Saint?

In the process of declaring a person a ‘saint’ the promoters of the prospective saint’s cause are asked to vouch for four authentic miracles to secure for beatification and two more miracles form Canonization.

The Holy Father can dispense one miracle if the candidate has founded a religious order. In Joan of Arc’s case, this dispensation was granted because she had saved France. Thus, three miracles sufficed for her beatification. The three approved miracles that raised Joan to Blessed were as follows:
  1. Sister Thérèse of Saint Augustine, who lived in Orleans, had been cured of leg ulcers.
  2. Sister Julie Gauthier, who lived in Faverolles, was cured of a cancerous ulcer of her left breast.
  3. Sister Marie Sagnier, who lived in Frages, was miraculously cured of cancer of the stomach.
Pope Pius X solemnly accepted these three miracles as authentic on December 13th, 1908. He declared, “Joan of Arc has shone like a new star destined to be the glory not only of France but of the Universal Church as well.” It was because of her heroic virtue that she was declared Blessed on April 18th, 1909.

Because the Socialist Party was very anti-clerical, they wanted Joan of Arc canonized so that they could used her as strictly a political hero. Between 1895 and 1905 relations between the Socialist government and the Holy See worsened to the point of total breakdown. L’ Action Francaise, a conservative royalist political organization, worked and demonstrated in the streets to bring down the Socialist government. This organization also worked for Joan’s canonization.

The two miracles needed for Joan of Arc’s canonization were obtained and authenticated without much delay but World War I put a stop to all such activities. In 1920 when the war was over and the French were victorious, the Vatican wanted to improve relations with the Socialist government. The Holy See was willing to give them their saint if the French government would reestablish diplomatic relations.

In his book, Saint Joan of Arc, Msgr. Leon Cristiani described his connection to one of the two miracles that caused Joan of Arc officially to be declared a saint by the Church. The miracle that he witnessed occurred in Lourdes on August 22nd, 1909, during the procession of the Blessed Sacrament.

The person in question was Thérèse Belin who lay unconscious when the Blessed Sacrament passed before her. Msgr. Cristiani was desirous of seeing Joan canonized. He obtained permission from the Bishop of Orleans to invoke Joan of Arc during the Blessing of the sick in hopes that a miracle would occur that could be attributed to Joan’s intercession. At the first invocation to Blessed Joan of Arc, Thérèse opened her eyes, at the second she sat up on her stretcher and at the third she felt she had been cured. Msgr. Cristiani later interviewed Thérèse and her god-mother about her illness. They informed him of the various stages of her sickness, the operations she had had and the remedies that had been used without effect. Her medical diagnosis was : Peritoneal and Pulmonary tuberculosis, complicated by an Organic Lesion of the Mitral Orifice. In plain English she had tuberculosis of her lungs and abdominal cavity which was complicated by an organic lesion of her mitral valve of her heart - obviously she was VERY sick.

The other recognized cure occurred to Miss Mirandelle who had a diagnosis of Perforating Plantar Affliction which means she had a hole that went through the sole of her foot.

Joan of Arc was canonized in a grand and solemn ceremony in Saint Peter’s Basilica on May 16th, 1920. Her feast day is celebrated on May 30th, the day of her death.

On July 10th, 1920, the French government officially made May 8th a national holiday. And by November 20th of this same year it resumed diplomatic relations with the Holy See.

At the five-hundredth anniversary of Joan of Arc’s death, May 30th, 1931, there was a grand celebration in Rouen to mark this anniversary. Representatives from the government, army, universities, parliament, magistrates, clergy and papacy attended. Even the Archbishop of Westminster, Prelate of all England, came to express his great admiration of her virtues.

Ever since her earliest childhood Joan of Arc prayed ardently from her heart. Her prayer life led her to a fervent faith in God. Her faith in God led her to love Him profoundly. This intense love led her to accept God’s will for her life. If we will pray, believe and love as earnestly as Joan did, then we too will be used by God! This is the secret to Joan’s saint hood, she listened, answered and obeyed. Here I am Lord! I come to do Your will! She stated at her trial, and her message to us is, “I believed it was an angel speaking to me, and I had the will to believe.”

Once we are confirmed, we are all soldiers in the Army of Christ! So let us bravely attack the powers and principalities of the evil one in the world, going forward, like Joan, to defend and advance God’s love and justice. Draw close to Christ in the Eucharist and stand firm upon His Word, so that you will remain faithful to Him in this passing world!

stjoan-center.com/FAQ/question7.html
 
The point to me is that this should have been dismissed as a hoax when they were originally proclaimed as relics. For a more detailed answer read my blog post at:
saint-joan-of-arc.blogspot.com/

I posted here hoping someone might be able to better help me understand why the Church gave any credence at all to this but several of the responders have tried to say that was no Church involvment. I think there was based on the material I posted which is probably why this has maintained any crediblity up to now. I personally hope that these scientific results will finally put an end to it but I have my doubts.

I certainly agree with you that the focus should be on Saint Joan’s life and all her accomplishments for the glory of God which is why I try to teach her true history
 
The point to me is that this should have been dismissed as a hoax when they were originally proclaimed as relics. For a more detailed answer read my blog post at:
saint-joan-of-arc.blogspot.com/

I posted here hoping someone might be able to better help me understand why the Church gave any credence at all to this but several of the responders have tried to say that was no Church involvment. I think there was based on the material I posted which is probably why this has maintained any crediblity up to now. I personally hope that these scientific results will finally put an end to it but I have my doubts.

I certainly agree with you that the focus should be on Saint Joan’s life and all her accomplishments for the glory of God which is why I try to teach her true history
It appears you are hawking a book??? LOL…I wonder why we should give any credence to you? 😃

and no I won’t be buying it
 
So my questions and responses have no merit becuase I wrote a book about Joan of Arc? Yea that makes a lot of sense. If you are so envious of others in such a way I feel sorry for you.
 
I’m not envious I am appalled at your nerve to come on a Catholic forum and try to sell your books is really a very vulgar attempt to self promote

I suspect you are in desperate need of money to do something this crass
 
I’m not envious I am appalled at your nerve to come on a Catholic forum and try to sell your books is really a very vulgar attempt to self promote
I suspect you are in desperate need of money to do something this crass
What is your real problem? I have never once mentioned my book on this forum in any of my posts ever. You are the one who brought it up. I only asked a question here that I was hoping would be answered in an intellegent manner. Obviously I did not get that from you, only ridiculous attacks and accusations. How dare you treat another person like this and claim to be a follower of Christ. That is my last response to you. Good day!
 
Ben,

That is a very interesting blog. Thanks for linking to it. I actually think I might have come across it before, since I have an interest in St. Joan as well.

I think my contribution to this thread boil down to this: research ought to be done. Do we have anything reliable and explicit that the Church pronounced on the authenticity of these items?

If the Church had, it would be recorded – I would think – in the annals of The Sacred Congregation for Indulgences and Sacred Relics. (Although that Congregation doesn’t exist anymore in that form, I believe that is what it was called at the time the items were found.)

Also, I think some research would need to be done regarding exactly what the disposition on *any relics are. Are they held out as absolutely authentic? I doubt it. I think, at most, *that Congregation would “approve” relics in an qualified sense – saying that they are not aware of anything that falsifies them. My guess is that, if anything, they are given a rebuttable presumption of authenticity – based on the testimony of antiquity and/or documented chain of custody. In the case of the items in question, i would find it remarkable that anyone took them seriously based solely on a label. No one had these things in custody beforehand, and there was no record of them ever existing. (In fact, as you have pointed out, the records are that all of St. Joan’s physical remains were assiduously destroyed!).

Do you see what I mean? Anyway, you have your research cut out for you if you are serious about it! Perhaps the Vatican Libraries can field an inquiry?

Let us know if you find anything out. It is all very interesting.
VC
 
Thank you, VC, for your intelligent response. The issue is somewhat perplexing to me which is why I wanted to get some other opinions. If I find out anything further on the involvment of the Church I will let you know.

Ben
 
You are welcome, Ben.

By the way, I know, this isn’t really the time or place for such a discussion. . . but. . . I have to ask:

Ever consider becoming Catholic? I’m sure St. Joan is pulling for you to cross the Tiber!

VC
 
You are welcome, Ben.

By the way, I know, this isn’t really the time or place for such a discussion. . . but. . . I have to ask:

Ever consider becoming Catholic? I’m sure St. Joan is pulling for you to cross the Tiber!

VC
VC-

Of course I have considered becoming Catholic because there is much I admire about Catholics and the way you practice your faith. I just finished reading Thomas Merton’s “The Seven Story Mountain” and it reminded me again how faithful some Catholics are in serving God with their entire beings. My reasons for remaining as I am are much too complex to go into here and would require a discourse on Luther and Calvin that I am sure would result in even more vicious attacks than I receved earlier on this thread. But thanks for asking and feel free to contact me by regular email on one of my sites.

Pax et bonum
 
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