St. Joan's in Minneapolis - Rome Has Spoken!!!

[Gray_Mouser]

Ray Marshall:

This is great news.

But the parish has a history of liturgical “abuse” which is over 20 years old (back when I was a parishioner), and many are not going to be happy about change.

Isn’t it funny how the people who are the most “cutting-edge” (read stuck in the 1960s) are the ones that invariable scream the loudest when it comes to implementing legitimate changes tot he liturgy?

What they need now is our prayers, above all else.

Truer words were rarely spoken.

Gray Mouser

 

[Gray_Mouser]

One of my favorite quotes from the SJA website is this:

What could happen though, was clear: George could be removed and the Archbishop would appoint a priest of his own choosing to lead us.

How horrible! The ordinary of the diocese appointing someone as priest of a parish which is under his jurisdiction! When will the madness end???

Gray Mouser

 

[Deacon2006]

Gray Mouser:

How horrible! The ordinary of the diocese appointing someone as priest of a parish which is under his jurisdiction! When will the madness end???

Gray Mouser

I agree the sheer madness of being faithful to ones bishop is so humiliating and subservient it almost like picking up a cross or something.

God Bless

 

[Exalt]

+veritas+:

Whoops, here’s a working link - stjoan.com/er1/morwood/morwood.htm

And it’s definitely worth looking at… I had no idea they did this, now they are denying the divinity of Christ and saying that all religions are equal.

+veritas+

A few exerts from the link that reall stood out to me:

“The sacrament was not a cleansing of Original Sin, but a celebration of the Christian image and imagination of Jesus and God.”

“We need to replace the image of a ‘chosen people’ (and therefore selective salvation). We need to see Buddha, Jesus, Zoroaster, and all the other religious seers as all part of the same spirit. These various prophets address cultural differences, rather than salvation issues. This is God revealed to different cultures, not selective salvation.”

“The thoughts of Mr. Morwood should not be seen as rejecting ‘all that we hold true and dear’, but rather as a way to reconcile our Faith with our times, and as a result make it more real.”

“The challenge to the hierarchy is to then answer the question: Is Jesus really God? When Jesus is a Human story, not a God story, we can stop thinking of judgements and images of the resurrection and whether it really happened.”

Looks like this man is in heresy (by teaching contrary to Catholicism in such a huge way). Yikes. That’s grounds for excommunication. :ehh:

I can’t believe thier parish is supporting this. It’s fundamental Christian doctrine since the begining that Jesus is God. It’s right there in the first chapter of the gospel of John! It’s Christianity 101. Wow. I’d rather worship in a baptist church or a methodist church than St. Joan of Ark, which is clearly not even Christian. They don’t even believe in objective truth - which is fundamental for any undersanding of any subject whatsoever! (esp religion)

 

[Ray_Marshall]

“The thoughts of Mr. Morwood should not be seen as rejecting ‘all that we hold true and dear’, but rather as a way to reconcile our Faith with our times, and as a result make it more real.”

“The challenge to the hierarchy is to then answer the question: Is Jesus really God? When Jesus is a Human story, not a God story, we can stop thinking of judgements and images of the resurrection and whether it really happened.”

I’ve been more tolerant of liturgical abuses here than many would like to see. But there is a huge difference between laypeople giving a homily or two many Extraordinary Ministers on the Altar, or a “Risen Christ Crucifix” and what I see there today.

If my understanding of Morwood’s talk is correct, we’re now talking real heresy.

And since this is still on the website after the meeting with the two Auxiliaries (and Archbishop Flynn last Spring), it sure appears that they are gearing up for a fight.

Here’s their website: stjoan.com/

Get a load of their “Spirit Ministry”: stjoan.com/spiritministryfr.htm

Next Sunday’s homilist is a parishioner: stjoan.com/homilistfr.htm

Here’s their “Eco-Spirituality” statement: stjoan.com/esfr.htm

Stay tuned.

 

[katolik]

KCT:

My mom is in the Rochester diocese. Her pastor has said he hates Bush! Wonder who he plans to vote for. —KCT

Probably Petroutka… He’s the Constitution Party candidate… and he is better than Bush

 

[Exalt]

Ray Marshall:

If my understanding of Morwood’s talk is correct, we’re now talking real heresy.

My mom pointed out something to me earlier… She said that when she was reading the article, she frequently misreading it “Wormwood.”

Signed,
Your affectionate uncle,
Screwtape.

 

[Binary_Paul]

One thing we Catholics who love the church and are obedient to Rome should do, Is pray for the deeper conversion of our pastors.

I have seen liturgical abuses in plenty of Catholic churches but not many as bad as the aforementioned. I was convicted to spend more time praying for my own pastor because of his deviations from normative practice. The offshoot of this was the formation of a small men’s group with the purpose of praying for the renewal and conversion of our churches, pastors and community. We have been ‘at it’ for 3-4 years now, and are beginning to see good fruit with some of our priests.

I always remember a comparison to the idea of ‘supporting’ the GLBT community. Why not support the murderers community? Or maybe the Pedophiles community? How about the stealers and thieves community? (I know, I pay taxes too) Since when has it become a ‘virtue’ to support or accept sinful activity?

I have labored for years earnestly praying for the conversion of a particular lesbian friend. I think of her as my sister who is in bondage. I want to see her in heaven. I know she has not experienced Godly love much in her life. This is most common in the homosexual community. It is the right thing to do to love them as Jesus does, and in intercession fasting and prayer, stand in the gap that exists because of their mortal sin separation from God. I hate their lifestyle and find it repulsive and an abomination. But I long to see them reunited with God and his infinite love.

The idea of there being a church that specializes in ministering to their needs seems inappropriate. They should be helped in a normal parish that provides a normal Catholic community for them to help them separate from their sin. Think about avoiding the occasion for sin.

 

[JCPhoenix]

Binary Paul:

I always remember a comparison to the idea of ‘supporting’ the GLBT community. Why not support the murderers community? Or maybe the Pedophiles community? How about the stealers and thieves community? (I know, I pay taxes too) Since when has it become a ‘virtue’ to support or accept sinful activity?

The idea of there being a church that specializes in ministering to their needs seems inappropriate. They should be helped in a normal parish that provides a normal Catholic community for them to help them separate from their sin. Think about avoiding the occasion for sin.

I have actually thought along these same lines.

Today I considered this. OK, so we “support” alcoholics and drug abusers. How? By an intervention. By getting them into appropriate treatment (in this case confession, a loving parish).

Apparently SJA believes that “support” is another word for “enabling” and “condoning” homosexual ACTIVITY. I have had gay and bi friends and loved them dearly. I have seen their struggle and terror of not being accepted. And I understand. But as a single woman (so far) I also understand that they and I are called to the same thing; chastity. Celibacy. And life in Christ.

I have been guilty of SJA’s form of “support” for my gay friends…ie suggesting setting them up, condoning a “marriage.” But I didn’t understand that what I was doing wasn’t really support. It was the equivalent of handing a bottle of JD to an alcoholic or a rock to a cocaine addict.

We all come down this road somehow…and I’m so sad that there are those who happily lead them and everyone else down the wide road to hell when there are so many of us who have seen those gates and the cliff they are about to leap over standing here waving and shouting and throwing ropes.

Maybe so far our ropes aren’t strong enough, our love isn’t getting to them and our prayers need more volume.

Let’s pray, everyone. Let’s all say the Divine Mercy prayer and offer it for all the souls at SJA. Or whatever you feel called to pray.

 

[pato]

Don’t you think it’s just a little bit odd that the Pope would react to the situation at St. Joan of Arc’s, yet he has hardly been vocal about the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church?

If judgment belongs to God, why does the Catholic Church pass judgment on gays, but not on themselves?

Lest you think I am anti-Catholic, I am the product of 12 years of Catholic education, and am just trying to find my way…

pato

 

[kmktexas]

Pato,

I know I shouldn’t get sucked in here, but you’re new and I’ll bite.

1. The Vatican has come down quite forcefully about the issue of sexual misconduct by priests.
2. In the case of St. Joan of Ark it appears to me after doing some research that the Vatican is not coming down on St. Joan’s at all. The Vatican is simply insisting that the Bishop do his job. And the Bishop, in turn, is calling on the Pastor to do his job.
3. The Catholic church does not “pass judgement” on so-called gays or on any other group of people. The Church provides clear teaching so that individuals, using their God given free will, can recognize and avoid sinful behavior. They also provide support and healing to help those struggling to avoid sinful behavior and to recover from past mistakes.
4. In the big picture, many more people are getting hurt by the actions of some disobedient priests and parish leaders than have ever been hurt by priestly sexual misconduct.

Lest you think I am anti-Catholic, I am the product of 12 years of Catholic education,

The two are not mutually exclusive by any means. Being Anti-Catholic is a feature of your current words and actions, not your eduational formation.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

pato:

Don’t you think it’s just a little bit odd that the Pope would react to the situation at St. Joan of Arc’s, yet he has hardly been vocal about the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church?

If judgment belongs to God, why does the Catholic Church pass judgment on gays, but not on themselves?

Lest you think I am anti-Catholic, I am the product of 12 years of Catholic education, and am just trying to find my way…

pato

pato, kmktexas has kindly tried to explain things to you. Sadly, I am not as kind. I think that your 12 years of Catholic education did you little good if you do not understand what is going on here.

I also think you are anti-Catholic.

I want to say, “Get a life,” but will humbly substitute:

God bless,

Anna

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I wonder if anyone in that archdiocese has thought of this: orthodox lay people throughout the city/archdiocese should go and register as members of this parish, absolutely swell it’s numbers, so that it’s the largest church in the archdiocese, then change it from the inside, complain of abuses from the inside, act from the inside. I think an effort needs to be made to take that parish back. Has this been attempted?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

pato:

Don’t you think it’s just a little bit odd that the Pope would react to the situation at St. Joan of Arc’s, yet he has hardly been vocal about the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church?

If judgment belongs to God, why does the Catholic Church pass judgment on gays, but not on themselves?

Lest you think I am anti-Catholic, I am the product of 12 years of Catholic education, and am just trying to find my way…

pato

I don’t think you are of neccessity being Anti-Catholics. The Holy See has been very vocal about the evil of pedophilia, much more so than in this instance where the Holy See has waited (I assume) on the Archbishop to act. I hope you find your way to our sweet Holy Mother Church. God bless.

 

[Binary_Paul]

Another point about the Vatican’s responses to problems in parishes is that there is no law that says they have to be public about the correction. It may seem to us laypersons that this is wrong, but we need to remember that the Church has an obligation to protect and shepherd all souls, even the mostly sinful ones. I have had the rare insight into this issue in that my parents hosted the personal emissary of the Pope while she was in route to deliver letters of castigation to a priest and a bishop who were preaching heresy or severe error. While this Nun obviously could not divulge the contents of the letters she made it plain that the Holy Father is much more on top of issues concerning problem parishes and pastors.

I think we need to allow the Vatican to respond in the timing they deem correct.

Hey just a thought, what would happen if several, or most of those parishes in St. Paul/Minneapolis, who have 24 hr. Eucharistic adoration, got together and had a Eucharistic procession with prayer at St. Joan of Arc parish? Is it possible that there is an evil presence at that parish because of the prevalence of homosexual sin and new age nonsense there? In case you are not aware of this idea, it is not new. Read Tan’s book about St. Vincent Ferrer. Angel Of the Apocalypse.

 

[Exporter]

I read 3 pages of the original post.Then I skimmed. Here is what I think.

1. Do the Gay peole all sit together as a group at Mass?
2. How do you know who is Gay?
3. This Gay Pride Parade is foriegn to me, does the priest support it?
4. What is the motive of the priest?
5. For a priest to force Gays to have special treatment to the detriment of others is not Catholic.
6. Is the priest Gay?

 

[Benedict]

Finally–I watched the mess at St. Joan’s, the capture of the parish by the gay/lesbian activists in the 80’s and early 90’s. Nobody did a thing. The place is an absolutely evil, heretical splinter, in schism with believing members of the Church Militant!! This is no joke . It has spilled over into the whole archdiocese. There is no place for this bunch in the Catholic Church. Let them attach themselves to Bishop Robinson and his gay friends in the Episcopal Church. Good riddance.

 

[kmktexas]

It has spilled over into the whole archdiocese. There is no place for this bunch in the Catholic Church. Let them attach themselves to Bishop Robinson and his gay friends in the Episcopal Church. Good riddance.

While I wouldn’t put it quite that way, I wouldn’t be surprized if the SJA community left the Church. There is a lot on their own web site about their being a prophetic church (what ever that means) and not want to be part of the heirarchy. They are already functioning more like a Protestant church anyway. The part about the pastor leaving the meeting so that the lay leaders could discuss how to respond!?!?!?!

What would be really interesting is for the Bishop to put a true Catholic orthodox pastor there to “clean house”. We had that happen in our parish. The previous pastor was pretty heterodox. He didn’t even have confession (not even by appointment). The new pastor really shook things up. About 1/2 of the parish left but a lot of new people came. After 5 years, we are about the same size as before and much more financially stable. The idea that JKirkLVNV proposed was good too but with a heterodox pastor, that could be a long and frustrating propostition.

Arch Bishop Flynne has taken a lot of public flack for his percieved tolerance of SJA. I don’t think the whole Archdiocese has been tainted. There is a web site that reports on the progree of a letter writing campaign to the Archbishop regarding SJA. This was an effort for and by other people in the Archdiocese for action. The ArchBishop is not generally know to be one of the liberal left, more moderate and I am sure he has been frustrated by this whole situation. I will keep them all in my prayers.

 

[Ella]

They should change the name of it from St. Joan to Pope Joan.

 

[Catholic29]

I started another thread on this in the Family Life section forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=20277 but I guess all the action is here, so I’ll let that one fade into oblivion.

I think it would a cool idea for Archbishop Flynn to assign Fr. Rober Altier to SJA, he would either bring that place back into line or clear it out in a hurry.